Old Age Pensions. (Hansard, 26 March 1914)

§ 6. Mr. GINNELL
asked the Chief. Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can estimate the number of persons in Ireland entitled by age and circumstances to old age pensions, but 520 denied pensions on the ground of age owing to the absence of parish registers of birth and of their names from the Census Returns, defects for which the applicants are not responsible; whether in such cases the Local Government Board accept the testimony of older persons, and the authentic record of the marriage of an applicant fifty years ago, and of the birth of a daughter forty-nine years ago, tested and held to be proved by the local pension committee; if so, why the Board refuse a pension to Mrs. Julia Peppard, in the Coole district, at the instance of an officer who neither heard the evidence before the committee nor tested it in any way; and whether the claim in that case will be reconsidered?

§ The CHIEF SECRETARY for IRELAND (Mr. Birrell)
The Local Government Board have no information which would enable them to answer the first paragraph of the question. With regard to the second paragraph, the Board carefully consider all evidence of age submitted to them. However, the fact that an applicant has been fifty years married cannot in itself be regarded as conclusive evidence that such applicant has attained seventy years of age. Julia Peppard's claim for an old age pension was disallowed by the Board on appeal on the 18th ultimo on the ground that there was insufficient evidence to show that she had attained the statutory age. The claimant was unable to furnish any satisfactory evidence of age when requested by the Board to do so.

§ Mr. GINNELL
Will the Local Government Board examine the Census Returns, if furnished, with all information available?

§ Mr. BIRRELL
Certainly.

§ 8. Mr. GINNELL
asked the Chief Secretary whether an old age pension officer, when appealing against a pension on the ground of means, submits to the Local Government Board a detailed estimate of the applicant's means; and, if so, whether the Board will in future send a copy of this estimate to the local pension committee?

§ Mr. BIRRELL
When appealing against a claim for an old age pension, a pension officer submits to the Local Government Board a statement of the sources of income of the claimant, such as stock and crops, together with a gross estimate of the claimant's means, but he does not submit any detailed estimate of the values; 521 assigned by him to the items comprising the claimant's mean's unless this is specially asked for by the Board. The Board form their own estimate of the claimant's means from the evidence submitted by the pension officer, the pension committee, and the claimant. In the circumstances it is not possible to comply with the suggestion in the second part of the question.

§ 35. Mr. GINNELL
asked the Secretary to the Treasury the number of old age pension officers employed in the first year of the operation of the Old Age Pensions Act; the number employed in 1913; why pension officers who, in the first year, attended meetings of pension committees on all occasions of difference of opinion between them and those committees, no longer do this, even when residing in the towns in which the meetings are held; and whether those officers employed in Ireland will be required, before lodging appeals against decisions of a committee, to attend and discuss with the committee the ground of appeal in each case?

§ The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Mr. Montagu)
The figures asked for in the first part of the question are, approximately, 1,600 in 1909, and 1,900 in 1913. There has been no change of practice on the part of pension officers in regard to attendance at meetings and pension committees, except that as committees have become more familiar with the work the necessity for the attendance of the pension officer has naturally become less frequent. As regards the suggestion made in the third part of the question, I do not think that there would be any advantage in pension officers attending to discuss with committee cases which, so far as the committees are concerned, are already closed.

§ Mr. GINNELL
Will the hon. Member say how he reconciles part of his answer with the experience of pension committees who cannot get these officers to attend their meetings, although they reside in the same town?

§ Mr. MONTAGU
I understand that the hon. Member is referring to the case of Kerry.

§ Mr. GINNELL
Yes, and other committees.

§ Mr. MONTAGU
I have made careful inquiries into that case, and I can find no ground for suggesting that pension officers have behaved improperly.

§ Mr. O'DONNELL
Has the hon. Member considered the case presented by the Kerry county committee with regard to the attendance of those officers in that particular case, which has been going on for fourteen months, and does he propose to take any steps in the matter?

§ Mr. MONTAGU
I recognise there has long been a dispute between the Kerry committee and the pension officers. If the hon. Member has any suggestion to make with a view to bringing peace between the two parties without in any way suggesting that the pension officers have behaved improperly, I shall be pleased to receive it.

§ Mr. O'DONNELL
May I suggest that the hon. Gentleman might bring about peace if he sent an officer down to inquire?

§ Mr. MONTAGU
I am very much obliged to the hon. Member for his suggestion, and I will consider it.

§ Mr. GINNELL
From whence did the hon. Member derive his information? Was it from the officers, or the pension committees?

§ Mr. MONTAGU
I do not want to go into the detail of this dispute now. The pension officers acted upon the principles laid down in fixing the means of applicants for old age pensions. An appeal was made by the pension committees to the Local Government Board of Ireland, who upheld the action of the pension officers.