HC Deb 23 March 1914 vol 60 cc140-3

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That 151,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed for the Sea and Coastguard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, including 18,7000 Royal Marines."


I only rise to get clearly settled this matter about the extra men. We are giving the Government Votes A, 1, 2, and 10, on the clear understanding that we have an extra and full day on Vote A, in addition to the ordinary day on Vote 8, which comes later on. May I ask if it will be understood by you, Sir, in the Chair, that, whatever Vote is put down which would be suitable, the House will be absolutely free and unfettered in the discussion which will be allowed upon it? Personally, I do not like Vote 12, because the Opposition have generally kept the salary of the First Lord for cases of emergency, and if Vote 9 is a suitable Vote on which to take the discussion, we should be prepared to agree. I would ask you, Sir, for your ruling as to whether we can have a full and open discussion on the whole question.


Before you give your ruling or expression of opinion, may I reinforce what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just said. I do not mind which Vote goes down, but we want to raise the specific point specially raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) the other day as to armour, so that we are quite willing to come to any agreement, but we require it to be of such a character as to enable us to raise that question of armour. Perhaps we may leave the matter open now if we get a definite pledge that they will meét us on that point, and that the Vote put down is a convenient Vote.

The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill)

I do not think there can be the slightest difficulty in meeting the wishes of the House in this respect. The actual choice of vehicle we should use for the purpose of the discussion may, I think, be left to consideration and negotiation. There is a very large field of Votes, and there will be no difficulty whatever in choosing a Vote which, in consultation with the Chair, will enable ample, full and free discussion to be raised over the whole field and area of naval policy. It is the intention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that there shall be another day in substitution for this day, and in addition to the ordinary day for Vote 8 which comes on usually in July.


Before this question is settled, let it be made clear that whatever Vote is put down on this particular date, it shall be a Vote that concerns the men in Lewis, who are in the Navy Reserve, in order that the House may hear what the First Lord, who is a Scottish Member, has to say about those men being driven off the Island, and therefore out of the Reserve, and confined in gaol.


There are, of course, a number of precedents for taking the discussion which is usual on Vote A on other Votes, and that course is taken when special circumstances arise such as have

arisen on the present occasion, and as Chairman I shall have no difficulty in assenting to the suggestion made from both sides of the House, and that whatever Vote is set down, whether it be Vote 9 or Vote 12—and I think it need not be decided at the moment, though I should have thought Vote 9 was the more suitable for the purpose—when that Vote is set down, I shall allow as wide a discussion as would have been open on Vote A. That is the usual arrangement, and that is what I propose to carry out.


As a rule we have a full discussion on any subject connected with the Navy Estimates on the First Lord's salary, and if we take Vote 9, shall we be able to have a general discussion?

Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes 217; Noes, 35.

Division No. 52.] AYES. [8.29 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Devlin, Joseph Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Acland, Francis Dyke Dewar, Sir J. A. Hughes, Spencer Leigh
Addison, Dr. Christopher Dillon, John Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)
Agnew, Sir George William Donclan, Captain A. Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Doris, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Doughty, Sir George Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)
Armitage, Robert Du Cros, Arthur Philip Joyce, Michael
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Duffy, William J. Kellaway, Frederick George
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Kelly, Edward
Barton, William Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Beale, Sir William Phipson Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Kenyon, Barnet
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Kilbride, Denis
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Essex, Sir Richard Walter Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
Bethell, Sir John Henry Falconer, James Lardner, James C. R.
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Farrell, James Patrick Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)
Black, Arthur W. Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Leach, Charles
Boland, John Pius Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Levy, Sir Maurice
Booth, Frederick Handel Ffrench, Peter Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Field, William Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)
Brady, Patrick Joseph Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lundon, Thomas
Brocklehurst, William B. Fitzgibbon, John Lyell, Charles Henry
Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Flavin, Michael Joseph Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Burns, Rt. Hon. John France, Gerald Ashburner McGhee, Richard
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gelder, Sir W. A. Maclean, Donald
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwick) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Macpherson, James Ian
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Greig, Colonel J. W. MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Griffith, Ellis Jones M'Callum, Sir John M.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) M'Kean, John
Clancy, John Joseph Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Hackett, John Marks, Sir George Croydon
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Marshall, Arthur Harold
Condon, Thomas Joseph Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Lein.)
Cotton, William Francis Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Middlebrook, William
Cowan, W. H. Hayden, John Patrick Millar, James Duncan
Crooks, William Hazleton, Richard Molloy, Michael
Crumley, Patrick Helme, Sir Norval Watson Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred
Culliman, John Hemmerde, Edward George Montagu, Hon. E. S.
Dairymple, Viscount Henry, Sir Charles Mooney, John J.
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Morgan, George Hay
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Higham, John Sharp Morison, Hector
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hinds, John Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Muldoon, John
Dawes, J. A. Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert
Delany, William Holmes, Daniel Turner Murphy, Martin J.
Nannetti, Joseph P. Raffan, Peter Wilson Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Tennant, Harold John
Nolan, Joseph Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Scarborough) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Reddy, Michael Toulmin, Sir George
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Redmond, John E. (Waterfard) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Verney, Sir Harry
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
O'Doherty, Philip Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
O'Donnell, Thomas Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
O'Dowd, John Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Robinson, Sidney Webb, H.
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Roche, Augustine (Louth) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
O'Malley, William Roe, Sir Thomas White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Rowlands, James Whitehouse, John Howard
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
O'Shee, James John Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
O'Sullivan, Timothy Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)
Palmer, Godfrey Mark Scanlan, Thomas Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Parry, Thomas H. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Williams Penry (Middlesbrough)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. Wood, Rt. Hon. T McKinnon (Glasgow)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Sheehy, David. Yeo, Alfred William
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Shortt, Edward Yerburgh, Robert A.
Pratt, J. W. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Young, William (Perthshire, East)
Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford) Soames, Arthur Wellesley TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Pringle, William M. R. Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Radford, George Heynes
Arnold, Sydney Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) Snowden, Philip
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Hogge, James Miles Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
Barnes, George N. Hudson, Walter Thomas, J. H.
Bowerman, Charles W. John, Edward Thomas Thorne, William (West Ham)
Brace, William Johnson, W. Wardle, George J.
Bryce, J. Annan Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Byles, Sir William Pollard Jowett, Frederick William Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Chancellor, Henry George Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Clough, William Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Wing, Thomas Edward
Glanville, H. J. Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)
Hancock, J. G. Mason, David M. (Coventry) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Hardie, J. Keir Parker, James (Halifax) Pointer and Mr. Richardson.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)