§ [Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That 151,000 officers, seamen, and boys be employed for the Sea and Coastguard Services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1915, including 18,7000 Royal Marines."
§ Mr. EYRES-MONSELLI only rise to get clearly settled this matter about the extra men. We are giving the Government Votes A, 1, 2, and 10, on the clear understanding that we have an extra and full day on Vote A, in addition to the ordinary day on Vote 8, which comes later on. May I ask if it will be understood by you, Sir, in the Chair, that, whatever Vote is put down which would be suitable, the House will be absolutely free and unfettered in the discussion which will be allowed upon it? Personally, I do not like Vote 12, because the Opposition have generally kept the salary of the First Lord for cases of emergency, and if Vote 9 is a suitable Vote on which to take the discussion, we should be prepared to agree. I would ask you, Sir, for your ruling as to whether we can have a full and open discussion on the whole question.
§ Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALDBefore you give your ruling or expression of opinion, may I reinforce what the hon. and gallant Gentleman has just said. I do not mind which Vote goes down, but we want to raise the specific point specially raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Snowden) the other day as to armour, so that we are quite willing to come to any agreement, but we require it to be of such a character as to enable us to raise that question of armour. Perhaps we may leave the matter open now if we get a definite pledge that they will meét us on that point, and that the Vote put down is a convenient Vote.
§ The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. Churchill)I do not think there can be the slightest difficulty in meeting the wishes of the House in this respect. The actual choice of vehicle we should use for the purpose of the discussion may, I think, be left to consideration and negotiation. There is a very large field of Votes, and there will be no difficulty whatever in choosing a Vote which, in consultation with the Chair, will enable ample, full and free 141 discussion to be raised over the whole field and area of naval policy. It is the intention of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister that there shall be another day in substitution for this day, and in addition to the ordinary day for Vote 8 which comes on usually in July.
§ Mr. J. HOGGEBefore this question is settled, let it be made clear that whatever Vote is put down on this particular date, it shall be a Vote that concerns the men in Lewis, who are in the Navy Reserve, in order that the House may hear what the First Lord, who is a Scottish Member, has to say about those men being driven off the Island, and therefore out of the Reserve, and confined in gaol.
§ The CHAIRMANThere are, of course, a number of precedents for taking the discussion which is usual on Vote A on other Votes, and that course is taken when special circumstances arise such as have
§ arisen on the present occasion, and as Chairman I shall have no difficulty in assenting to the suggestion made from both sides of the House, and that whatever Vote is set down, whether it be Vote 9 or Vote 12—and I think it need not be decided at the moment, though I should have thought Vote 9 was the more suitable for the purpose—when that Vote is set down, I shall allow as wide a discussion as would have been open on Vote A. That is the usual arrangement, and that is what I propose to carry out.
§ Lord C. BERESFORDAs a rule we have a full discussion on any subject connected with the Navy Estimates on the First Lord's salary, and if we take Vote 9, shall we be able to have a general discussion?
§ Question put.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 217; Noes, 35.
143| Division No. 52.] | AYES. | [8.29 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Devlin, Joseph | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dewar, Sir J. A. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Dillon, John | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Donclan, Captain A. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Doris, William | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Doughty, Sir George | Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) |
| Armitage, Robert | Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Joyce, Michael |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Duffy, William J. | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Kelly, Edward |
| Barton, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Kenyon, Barnet |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Falconer, James | Lardner, James C. R. |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Farrell, James Patrick | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Leach, Charles |
| Boland, John Pius | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Ffrench, Peter | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Field, William | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lundon, Thomas |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Fitzgibbon, John | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | France, Gerald Ashburner | McGhee, Richard |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gelder, Sir W. A. | Maclean, Donald |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwick) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Greig, Colonel J. W. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Griffith, Ellis Jones | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | M'Kean, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Hackett, John | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Marshall, Arthur Harold |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Lein.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Middlebrook, William |
| Cowan, W. H. | Hayden, John Patrick | Millar, James Duncan |
| Crooks, William | Hazleton, Richard | Molloy, Michael |
| Crumley, Patrick | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Culliman, John | Hemmerde, Edward George | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Dairymple, Viscount | Henry, Sir Charles | Mooney, John J. |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Higham, John Sharp | Morison, Hector |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hinds, John | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Muldoon, John |
| Dawes, J. A. | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Delany, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Murphy, Martin J. |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Tennant, Harold John |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (Scarborough) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Reddy, Michael | Toulmin, Sir George |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Redmond, John E. (Waterfard) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| O'Dowd, John | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Robinson, Sidney | Webb, H. |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Malley, William | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Rowlands, James | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Shee, James John | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Scanlan, Thomas | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Parry, Thomas H. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williams Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sheehy, David. | Yeo, Alfred William |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Shortt, Edward | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Pratt, J. W. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | |
| Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Radford, George Heynes | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Arnold, Sydney | Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Hogge, James Miles | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Barnes, George N. | Hudson, Walter | Thomas, J. H. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | John, Edward Thomas | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Brace, William | Johnson, W. | Wardle, George J. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jowett, Frederick William | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Clough, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Glanville, H. J. | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | |
| Hancock, J. G. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Hardie, J. Keir | Parker, James (Halifax) | Pointer and Mr. Richardson. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |