§ Where a man has not received benefit after at least six consecutive signatures in the register and benefit is due the officer in charge may, at his discretion upon the request of the workman, pay the benefit due the following day; provided that when the register is signed for the sixth time on a Wednesday payment shall be made on the following Friday.
§ Clause brought up, and read the first time.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI beg to move "That the Clause be read a second time."
I move this Clause in order to meet a very substantial grievance that now exists under the unemployment insurance Section of the Act in regard to the paying out of benefit. Under the present system a workman out of employment may sign a card for no less than eight consecutive days, and very likely get no benefit at all for over a fortnight from the day on which he first claims the benefit. I have got an unemployment insurance card here, giving an actual case which occurred but a few weeks ago, and, if I may, I should just like to say exactly what happened to give an illustration of the case this Clause is meant to meet. A man first signs on a 1756 Thursday, and then signs every day for the next seven days up to and including Friday week; that is to say, there are eight days' consecutive signatures. The first six days may possibly be his waiting week for which he would receive no benefit, but he would be entitled to 2s. 4d. benefit for the seventh and eighth day, or the last two days of the consecutive signing of the register; that is to say, for the following Thursday's and Friday's signatures. Unfortunately, as the insurance week ends on Wednesday and pay-day is on Friday, he would not be able to get anything until the following Friday, when 2s. 4d. benefit would be due to him. During the rest of the week he very likely might be able to get work and wages, and, if he missed his signatures, he would still be unable to get any benefit that week. He would only get it on the following Friday, and, if he happened to get work during the week, just before the following Friday, he would be getting paid benefit when he really wanted it least. A man really wants benefit after he has been out of employment at the end of the week, and to postpone the payment of this benefit until the following week, when he may possibly be in work, is to my mind not nearly so useful as to let him have the benefit directly it is due.
1757 Perhaps I may take another case which has actually happened. Take the case of a man who has signed his waiting week for six consecutive days, and subsequently, a week or two later, he signs for another six consecutive days. If he signs on a Tuesday and continues signing until the following Monday, he has signed on six consecutive days, but he can get nothing at all until the following pay-day, which is the following Friday. He has signed for one waiting week, six consecutive days, and he has signed later on for one more week, six consecutive days, and then he has to wait four more days before he can draw any benefit at all. He has to wait, that is to say, for sixteen days altogether. This is a hardship in the case of people who earn low wages and happen to be in very poor circumstances. This Clause, I venture to propose, absolutely meets the difficulty I have tried to put before the House. Under this Amendment after a man has signed for at least six consecutive days, and benefit becomes due, then, if the workman desires it, and the officer in charge of the Labour Exchange agrees, the amount of benefit due can be paid to him. I should like to point out, if I may, that this new Clause is not mandatory; it is optional. It simply gives this advantage to the workman who actually asks that it should be given to him, and only in the case of the officer in charge of the Labour Exchange consenting to the workman's request.
I have added a proviso to the new Clause to avoid any unnecessary complication of machinery. It is in order to avoid such a case as this, for instance. Supposing a man had already completed a waiting week, and then later on had signed for six consecutive days, beginning on a Thursday and ending on a Wednesday, under this new Clause without the proviso he would be able to claim benefit on the Thursday, or one day before the ordinary pay-day. This proviso has been put in so as to avoid the unnecessary trouble and complication in a Labour Exchange of possibly frequently having to pay out money on two days following. I submit that this is a reasonable Amendment, and I cannot for one moment see how there can be any argument against it. It is not an invention of my own. I have not put it on the Paper for the sake of putting down amendments. During the last few days I have been in communication with several Labour Exchanges and their managers. I have 1758 been most carefully through the one or two Amendments I have put on the Paper. They have assured me that this Amendment would meet an undoubted grievance, and that there is absolutely no difficulty in respect of machinery, but that it can be perfectly easily carried out. They have pointed out that you can now, under the Act, only get paid on a different day front the pay-day if you happen to be leaving the district. Supposing a workman happens to be leaving a district in which benefit is due, they can then exercise their discretion at the Exchange and pay him on a day other than the Friday, but it can only be done where the man is leaving the district. The only thing that my Clause does is to extend the discretion of the man in charge of the Labour Exchange. It merely says that where he considers it advisable to pay when the benefit is due instead of waiting until the following pay-day, he should be able to exercise that discretion if the workman wants him to do it.
§ Mr. CASSELI beg to second the Motion.
Mr. ROBERTSONMay I point out to the hon. Member that, even if the case be as good as he assumes, his Clause is really unnecessary. He propose to give us a discretion we already possess. And as regards the procedure he recommends, I may say that thus far we are not in favour of taking this step. Our procedure is dictated by two general considerations. First, there is the fact of the experience of all friendly societies that a weekly pay-day is the best method. That is the universal course, and to adopt a method under which you pay every day would certainly enormously increase the machinery of the Department.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONThat is not so.
Mr. ROBERTSONFurther, it is a very strong opinion among those concerned with unemployment benefit that the first week or two of unemployment is the time of least distress. Instead of frittering away the money as fast as you can, you should keep it and give it in a lump sum when the man suffering from unemployment begins to feel the pinch. It is possible that in some cases, as the hon. Member suggests, a man may go as long as sixteen days, but the normal time is from nine to thirteen days. The idea is that the pinch is not felt so much during the first week. It begins about the second week, 1759 when the man becomes entitled to the lump sum. I think it is a better method than that suggested by the hon. Member, but if our experience should lead us to take his view, and if we come to the conclusion there should be discretion to our officers to pay day by day, that power already exists. We can do it by Regulation, and we do not really require a Clause.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONI am assured that at the present moment there is no power in the officer in charge to use this discretion, but if the right hon. Gentleman tells me that the Board of Trade will issue a Regulation giving such discretion to the officer in charge when he wants to use it, I will withdraw my Amendment.
Mr. ROBERTSONI say the Board of Trade can issue a Regulation if it thinks fit, but, as I have told the hon. Member,
§ our experience is not in favour of his suggestion. Still, we have the power, if we see fit to use it.
§ Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSONWhat harm can there be in the Board of Trade at once issuing the Regulation?
Mr. ROBERTSONI have given the reason why we do not want to adopt that method. I repeat that if we see fit to give this discretion we are perfectly able to do so.
§ Mr. FORSTERWill the hon. Gentleman look into the question from the point of view put forward by my hon. Friend?
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 75; Noes, 206.
1761| Division No. 211.] | AYES. | [3.38 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gibbs, G. A. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gilmour, Captain John | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldman, C. S. | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Goldsmith, Frank | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Barnston, Harry | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Harris, Henry Percy (Paddington, S.) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Blair, Reginald | Harris, Leverton (Worcester, East) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Boyton, James | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Tickler, T. G. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Mildred | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Houston, Robert Paterson | Weigall, Captain A. G. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Currie, George W. | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Kyffin-Taylor, G | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Larmor, Sir J. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Worthington Evans, L. |
| Du Cros, Arthur Philip | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lieut.-Colonel A. R. | Yate, Colonel Charles Edward |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Younger, Sir George |
| Fell, Arthur | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| Fletcher, John Samuel | Mount, William Arthur | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Forster, Henry William | Newton, Harry Kottingham | G. Locker-Lampson and Mr. Hills. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Doris, William |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs, Heywood) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Alden, Percy | Chancellor, Henry George | Duncan, Sir J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Armitage, Robert | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Clancy, John Joseph | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clough, William | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Clynes, John R. | Esmonds, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Cowan, W. H. | Falconer, James |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Crooks, William | Ffrench, Peter |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Cullinan, John | Field, William |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth) | Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Buck master, Sir Stanley O. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) | Ginnell, Laurence |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Delany, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Dillon, John | Greig, Colonel J. W. |
| Gulland, John William | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Robinson, Sidney |
| Hancock, John George | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Rowlands, James |
| Hardie, J. Keir | Meagher, Michael | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molloy, Michael | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport | Scanian, Thomas |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hayward, Evan | Mooney, John J. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Morgan, George Hay | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morrell, Philip | Shortt, Edward |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Morison, Hector | Smith, Albert (Lancs. Clitheroe) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Muldoon, John | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Hinds, John | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hodge, John | Needham, Christopher T. | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hogge, James Myles | Neilson, Francis | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Norman, Sir Henry | Tennant, Rt. Hon. Harold John |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Nuttall, Harry | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Jones, Edgar (Marthyr Tydvil) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Treveiyan, Charles Philips |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Doherty, Philip | Waring, Walter |
| Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | O'Dowd, John | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Jowett, Frederick William | O'Malley, William | Webb, H. |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Kenyon, Barnet | O'Shee, James John | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| King, Joseph | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lardner, James C. R. | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N. W.) |
| Leach, Charles | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Pratt, J. W. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Lundon, Thomas | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Pringle, William M. R. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Radford, G. H. | Yeo, Alfred William |
| Maclean, Donald | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Reddy, Michael | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| WCallum, Sir John M. | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |