§ Mr. BONAR LAWI wish to ask the Chief Secretary a question, of which I have given him notice: Who, in addition to the Under-Secretary—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—was present when the Minute relating to the gun-running incident was prepared; on what date and at what hour was the Minute signed; and on what date, at what hour, was it sent to the office of the Dublin Metropolitan Police; and when was it received by Mr. Harrel?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Lord Chancellor was present when the Minute was prepared on Sunday, the 26th. The exact time of signature is not on record, but probably it was shortly before five o'clock. It was sent to the Dublin Metropolitan Police office in Dublin Castle at once, and 1325 was opened by the late Chief Commissioner, who was then in the office. It was sent by bicyclist to Mr. Harrel, who tells me that he received it about 5.45 o'clock.
§ Mr. DILLONI should like to ask the Chief Secretary whether there is any foundation for the statement made in several of the Dublin papers yesterday that Mr. Harrel was at that moment in the Kildare Street Club?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not know to what time the hon. Member refers, and I cannot answer the question. It was 5.45 when he received the message. He was at the Amiens Street station after the incident bad occurred, directing the police who were returning to barracks from Howth.
§ Mr. DILLONI would press the right hon. Gentleman on this point, and if he has not the information I would press him to obtain it, as to whether as a fact when Mr. Harrel was asked to attend in the Under-Secretary's office in the Castle he was at that moment in the Kildare Street Club.
§ Mr. BIRRELLI cannot answer that.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWIs it not the case that the House was led to understand that that Minute was sent immediately after the meeting at Dublin Castle about 2.45, and does it not now appear that it was only written after the incident was practically over?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Minute was prepared at the time which I have indicated. It was after various attempts had been made from Dublin Castle to find out the whereabouts of Mr. Harrel, and, those attempts having failed, the Minute was prepared at the time I have indicated, shortly before five o'clock. It was then sent over to the police office as I have described. I have no knowledge of the chronology of the case, and I am not in any way responsible for any impression that may have been created.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWIs it not the case that the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary gave the House to understand that they had endeavoured to get Mr. Harrel to give him this Minute, when, as a fact, it had not been prepared until the whole thing was over?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo. If Sir James Dougherty had been able to get hold of Mr. Harrel he would have given him the Minute by word of mouth.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman how he could have given him the contents of a Minute before it was written?
§ Mr. BIRRELLBecause what Sir James Dougherty would have done would have been to prohibit, as far as he could, Mr. Harrel from invoking the intervention of the military.
§ Mr. DILLONI desire to ask the Chief Secretary again whether, in the efforts to obtain Mr. Harrel before the Minute was written, a search was made for him at the Kildare Street Club?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not want in any way to make statements of a kind which I am not in a position to verify, nor am I at all desirous of making any statements affecting Mr. Harrel. The whole subjectmatter is under review. Sir James Dougherty, when he comes to give any evidence, will be better able than I am to state the efforts that he made through the telephone to get hold of Mr. Harrel, and to say where Mr. Harrel was at any particular moment.
§ Mr. DILLONI beg to give notice that I shall repeat this question, and I ask the Chief Secretary to obtain the information for this House: Whether at the time Mr. Harrel was summoned to attend at the Castle to receive the orders of the Executive Government he was in the Kildare Street Club, the headquarters of the Unionist party in Dublin?
Mr. BALFOURI hope that the right hon. Gentleman will obtain further information for the House, in deference to the request made by the hon. Gentleman below the Gangway. Will he at the same time inform us, or inform us now if he can, in the first place at what hour the Lord Chancellor arrived at the Castle, and in the second place how the Under-Secretary knew what steps had been taken by Mr. Harrel on his own responsibility to deal with the men "now marching into Dublin"? The passage in the Minute is this:—
As regards the steps which you have taken on your own responsibility to deal with the arms landed at Howth this morning, His Excellency is advised that forcible disarmament of the men now marching into Dublin with these arms should not in all the circumstances be attempted.When did they get that information? From what source did they get it, and why could they not in any case, when they got the information, communicate with the troops, with the police, and with Mr. Harrel?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI have addressed identical questions yesterday, though not in exactly the same language, to the Under-Secretary and the Lord Chancellor, and when I get the information I will certainly give it.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWI must ask the Chief Secretary how it was possible—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speak up!"]—that the Minute which was written after the event could contain the words "troops now marching into Dublin?"
§ Mr. BIRRELLEverybody knows that they were marching into Dublin, and Mr. Harrel in his first communication by telephone told Sir James Dougherty, who was then in his house in the Phœnix Park at two o'clock, that this was so. [HON. MEMBERS: "This was five o'clock!"] The whole thing arose out of Mr. Harrel receiving that information, and deeming it to be his duty to act in a particular way upon it. All I say is that Sir James Dougherty was down at the Castle at 2.45, and if Mr. Harrel had then come across him he would have received from Sir James Dougherty, not in the form of a Minute, but in the form of words, exactly what afterwards was put on the Minute.
Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTTIs it not the case that the Minute which contained the words "steps which you have taken" bears upon its face evidence that it was written after definite steps had been taken and after it was recognised that it was impossible to stop those steps?
§ Mr. BIRRELLPeople must form their own judgment.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINCan the right hon. Gentleman inform the House why it was that, as stated by him, he received no information as to the occurrence in Dublin until Monday morning?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThat is not so at all. I received the information on Sunday of what had taken place. On Monday morning the first thing I did was to telegraph to ascertain why the military had been employed.
§ Mr. CHAMBERLAINIf the right hon. Gentleman is reported as having said that when the news first reached him on Monday morning his first inclination was to suspend Sir John Boss, will he say was that an error on the part of the reporter or of himself?
§ Mr. BIRRELLVery likely it may have been an error on the part of myself. I am not going to accuse any reporter or anybody else.
§ Sir HENRY CRAIKUpon whose authority did the Under-Secretary convey that very definite order to Mr. Harrel?
§ Mr. BIRRELLOn the authority of the Lord Lieutenant.
§ Mr. BIRRELLI cannot answer that question. All I know is that when the Minute was sent from Dublin Castle about five o'clock, Sir John Ross was in his office.