Sir HERBERT ROBERTSI beg leave to move "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to promote temperance in Wales and Monmouthshire by conferring on the electors in prescribed areas control over the grant and renewal of licences; by amending the law relating to Sunday closing and clubs; and by other provisions incidental thereto."
In asking leave to introduce this Bill, I do not think it necessary to apologise for taking up a few minutes in putting before the House the position of affairs with regard to this question. I have been in the House a great number of years, and may claim that I have not intervened unduly in Debates, but I think it my duty to bring this question, as it is expressed in this Bill, before the attention of the House. It is unnecessary to refer in detail to the provisions of this Bill. The Bill is on the lines of the Scottish Temperance Act which was passed last Session. Its main object is to give to Wales and Monmouthshire the same powers in regard to the control of licences as have been conferred upon Scotland, to amend the Welsh Sunday Closing Act, and to extend its provisions in accordance with the unanimous recommendations of two Royal Commissions. The foundation upon which this Bill rests is the advanced opinion of Wales upon the temperance question. I have one or two facts to show to the House how advanced opinion in Wales is upon this point. There is, first, the evidence on the Parliamentary side of the question.
For more than thirty years the Parliamentary representation of Wales in this House has been emphatically in favour of the principle of the Bill. In 1881 the Welsh Sunday Closing Act was passed. That Act has undoubtedly benefited the people of Wales. It was tested by the Royal Commission which sat in 1881. That Royal Commission recommended unanimously certain amendments. These amendments have been incorporated in the Bill, and the House will not deem it egotistical on my part if I reveal the fact that upon twenty-two occasions I have introduced this amending Bill to the House of Commons without a single break. But even the few hours required for passing 1615 this Bill have not been found available. I remember that in the Session of 1891, and in the Session of 1893, the Welsh Local Veto Bill passed its Second Reading in this House. On the first occasion only one Welsh Member voted against it, and on the second occasion there were only two. I may also remind the House that in the year 1908, the Government, in its Licensing Bill, introduced special Clauses relating to Wales. If that Bill had passed, Wales, so far as licensing is concerned, would have been master in its own house. Before I conclude, I would like to recall to the House the evidence in support of this Bill, giving to Wales and Monmouthshire popular control in regard to licences, which lies outside the House of Commons and political conditions. First, for the last twenty-five or thirty years public authorities in Wales, from the county council down to the parish council, have passed resolutions from time to time in support of the principle of the Bill. If you were to search the whole of the United Kingdom through and through you would not find any case where temperance, sentiment, and conviction are so closely associated with public life and administration as in Wales.
I cannot refrain from mentioning another fact, a fact of the greatest significance and importance, namely, the determined support of the women of Wales which lies behind this Bill. Lastly, I might remind the House that it has also behind it the unchanging support of the religious denominations of the country. In conclusion, what is the situation in regard to this Bill? For thirty-five years or more Wales has returned to this House, at ten General Elections, overwhelming majorities of Members in support of the principle of this Bill. Transfer the conditions to England; try to imagine the English electorate sending, through ten General Elections, a majority of ten to one Members in favour of a particular measure! Is it conceivable that such a measure would not be dealt with? Our thoughts at this time are naturally occupied with the Irish question, and, in conclusion, I would say this: We, in Wales, see in the coming solution of the Irish question the opening of the way, through a similar measure of devolution for ns, to the realisation of our legitimate aspirations so far as local affairs are concerned. I hope that the Government will give us facilities 1616 to enable us to pass this Bill into law. Comparisons are invidious, but I may say this: That however strongly Scotland was in favour of the Bill which was passed last Session, the feeling in Wales is just as strong in support of this measure, and in a matter of this kind, which we believe to be closely identified with the social and moral growth of the people, we think what has been given to Scotland ought not to be denied to Wales.
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREAs the hon. Member has introduced this Bill under the Ten Minutes' Rule, and not in the ordinary way behind the Speaker's Chair, I think it only right, as he has said that there is a large measure of support in the Principality for this Bill, to say that there is also a considerable amount of opposition, particularly in Monmouthshire. It is not the custom of this House to oppose the introduction of a Bill for First Reading, and, therefore, I shall reserve what I have to say on the subject for Second Reading, but I do not like it to be thought that this Bill is to be introduced without some opposition.
§ Mr. EDGAR JONESOn a point of Order. Is it the practice to allow hon. Members to make speeches on the introduction of a Bill under the Ten Minutes' Rule?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Rule says that short speeches are permitted from those who are in favour of the Bill and those who are opposed to it. I thought when the hon. Gentleman rose that he was going to say that he was opposed to it.
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREI am.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member cannot have it both ways. If he is opposing the Bill, he can show that by his vote when I put the Question, but if he does not intend to do that, he ought to remain silent.
§ Mr. ORMSBY-GOREIs it not the custom, Sir, in this House for an hon. Member opposing a Bill to make a short speech, but not necessarily to put the House to the trouble of dividing without adequate debate? That is the course I wish to adopt, and while opposed to the Bill, I do not wish to trouble the House to divide on this occasion, because we will have a Division on the Second Reading of the Bill. That is a point of Order, and I should like your ruling, Sir, upon it.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe Standing Order in regard to Motions for leave to bring in Bills states:—
"If such Motions be opposed, Mr. Speaker, after permitting, if he thinks fit, a brief explanatory statement from the Member who moves and from the
§ Member who opposes any such Motion respectively, may, without further debate, put the Question."
§ Question put.
§ The House divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 96.
1619| Division No. 19.] | AYES. | [4.4 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Glanville, Harold James | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Adamson, William | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molloy, Michael |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Greig, Colonel J. W. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred |
| Alden, Percy | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Armitage, Robert | Guliand, John William | Montagu, Hon. E. S. |
| Arneld, Sydney | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Mooney, John J. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Hackett, John | Morrell, Philip |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Hancock, J. G. | Morison, Hector |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Barnes, George N. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Muldoon, John |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Hardie, J. Keir | Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Boland, John Plus | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brace, William | Henry, Sir Charles | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Hewart, Gordon | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Higham, John Sharp | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hinds, John | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Hodge, John | O'Dowd, John |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Carr-Gomm, R. W. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Malley, William |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Horner, Andrew Long | O'Shee, James John |
| Chappie, Dr. William Allen | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hudson, Walter | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Clough, William | Illingworth, Percy H. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) | John, Edward Thomas | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Johnson, W. | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil). | Pratt, J. W. |
| Cowan, W. H. | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Primrose, Hon. Nell James |
| Cutllinan, John | Jowott, Frederick William | Radford, G. H. |
| Dalziel. Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Joyce, Michael | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kelly, Edward | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Delany, William | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Reddy, Michael |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Dillon, John | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lardner, James C. R. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Doris, William | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Leach, Charles | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Levy, Sir Maurice | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rowlands, James |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Lundon, Thomas | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Falconer, James | Lyell, Charles Henry | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fanwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Maclean, Donald | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Ffrench, Peter | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Field, William | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim,. S.) |
| France, Gerald Ashburner | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Snowden, Philip |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Gill, A. H. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Sutton, John E. |
| Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Waring, Walter | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Thomas, J. H. | Watt, Henry A. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Webb, H. | Winfrey, Sir Richard |
| Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wedgwood, Josiah c. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Trevelyan, Charles Philips | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Verney, Sir Harry | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) | Yeo, Alfred William |
| Walters, Sir John Tudor | Whitehouse, John Howard | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Walton, Sir Joseph | Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth) | |
| Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Wilkie, Alexander | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir |
| Wardle, George J. | Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.) | Herbert Roberts and Mr. Robinson. |
| NOES. | ||
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Falle, Bertram Godfray | Randies, Sir John S. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Forster, Henry William | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Goldsmith, Frank | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Barnston, Harry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Greene, Walter Raymond | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gretton, John | Stewart, Gershom |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton Greenwich) | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Bird, Alfred | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Thomson, W. Mitchell (Down, N.) |
| Blair, Reginald | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Hills, John Waller | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hunt, Rowland | Walker, Colonel William Hall |
| Campion, W. R. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Watson, Hon. W. |
| Carille, Sir Edward Hildred | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Cassel, Felix | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) |
| Cator, John | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Wilson, Hon. A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. | Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Mallaby-Deeley, Harry | Wilson, MaJ. Sir M. (Bethnal Green. S. W) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Winterton, Earl |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Newman, John R. P | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Croft, H. P. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart |
| Denison-Pander, J. C. | Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Peto, Basil Edward | Younger, Sir George |
| Doughty, Sir George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | |
| Du Pre, W. Baring | Pollock, Ernest Murray | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Duffy, William J. | Quilter, Sir William Eley C. | Ormsby-Gore and Viscount Castlereagh. |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton, M. |
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Sir Herbert Roberts, Mr. Ellis Davies, Mr. David Davies, Mr. Hugh Edwards, Mr. John, Mr. Robinson, and Mr. Richards. Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday, 23rd March, and to be printed. [Bill 72.]