HC Deb 23 February 1914 vol 58 cc1529-43

Motion made and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £5, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1914, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Registrar - General of Births, etc., in England."


I desire to ask a question as to Item A for £125, the "additional sum required to cover the cost of work performed by the National Health Insurance (Audit) Department," and to know what the office of the Registrar-General has got to do with the Audit Department of the Insurance Office. At first sight it is not very clear what connection there is between the work of the Registrar-General, whose duty it is to take the census, and the Audit Department of a great concern like the National Insurance Department. Secondly, I would ask for what the £125, the additional sum, has been used.


There are one or two other points in connection with this Estimate, which I think deserves some consideration and answer from the hon. Member, when he deals with the particulars which has been raised by my right hon. Friend. It is true that the total sum to which we are asked to give our sanction is only an amount of £5, but at the same time I think it is desirable that any sum, however trivial it may seem at first sight, should be carefully investigated by hon. Members in view of the fact that in many cases where the sum itself is small the principle which is involved is extremely important. I notice that under the first sub-head, salaries, wages and allowances, the original estimate amounted to £29,156. There is now a revised estimate placed before us of £29,281, giving an additional sum required of £125. The whole of this sum is to cover the cost of work which has been performed for the National Health Insurance Audit Department. I think we are entitled to some explanation with regard to that matter. It has struck me in examining these various estimates that this subject of National Insurance is always cropping up some way or another, and in the most unexpected places we are continually being asked to sanction the expenditure of sums of money, and in some cases large sums of money, with reference to this National Insurance. I doubt very much where any estimate has ever been made as to what all those various expenditures amount to. Those items, as I say, are cropping up in the most unexpected places, and hon. Gentlemen opposite come down to the House and expect them to go through practically automatically. There is another question to which I wish to direct attention, and that is to sub-head E, dealing with salaries and wages. The original estimate was £3,044, and now we are asked for £3,994, an additional amount of £950. I find in a foot note at the bottom of the estimates this explanation. The preparation of the various Census tables and Reports, and the returns for local authorities under Section 9 of the Census Act, 1910, has proved to be more expensive than was anticipated. I do not quite understand that, because Section 9 of the Census Great Britain Act, 1910, is in these terms:— The Registrar-General may, if, and at such time as he thinks fit, at the request and cost of any local authority or any person, cause abstracts to be prepared containing statistical informa- tion which can be derived from the Census Returns but is not supplied by the Census Report, and which in his opinion, the authority or person may reasonably require. The statement with regard to the cost of these matters proving more expensive than was anticipated does not seem to coincide with the terms of the Act of Parliament, and there seems to me to be a distinct divergence, because it is perfectly clear under the Clause I have read, or at least it so seems to me, that the Registrar-General at such time as he thinks fit may, at the request and cost of any local authority cause those abstracts, and so forth, to be made. It is distinctly laid down in the Act of Parliament that the cost is to come, not out of the National Exchequer, but from the local authorities. Therefore I do not see how there can be any increase in the expected expense.


In reply to the point raised by the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Hills), in the original Estimate a sum was included for carrying out this work, which amount has not proved sufficient. The Audit Department under the Insurance Act requested the permission of the Treasury that the Registrar-General should make certain researches, with a view to testing the age of assured contributors, because the accuracy of the age returns has an effect on their reserve values. Accordingly the Registrar-General was authorised to undertake the experimental checking of a certain number of cases. In order that these tests may extend over a sufficiently large field, it has been found necessary to extend the work over a rather larger area than was at first thought necessary. The work, therefore, is being continued, and this extra sum of £125 is required. The hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Sandys) is exercised by the fact that it was impossible to foresee the exact cost of the additional requirements by local authorities under Section 9 of the Census Act, 1910. He points out that this ought to be recouped by the local authority, and he asks why we have come to the House of Commons for the money. What we are asking for is really only a token Vote. By Statute we cannot devote an increase in the Appropriations-in-Aid to increased expenditure. Therefore, although the money is coming in, and the receipts from local authorities will be greater by £1,070, we are bound by the Rules of the House to put down a token Vote, and to bring it before the House for sanction.


I beg to move, that Item E. ("Salaries and Wages") be reduced by £50.

I do not quarrel with the explanation of the hon. Gentleman with regard to the first item. It is quite possible that it was necessary to have an increased Vote for the purpose which he has indicated, and as the increase is only £125 I do not propose to quarrel with that. But I am not so sure that I can accept the explanation with regard to Item E. The hon. Gentleman says it is necessary to have a token Vote in order that the Treasury may apply the Appropriations-in-Aid which have exceeded the Estimate to the excess sum required under this head. That is quite true. But the footnote says:— The preparation of the various Census tildes and report, and of returns … has proved to be more expensive than was expected. The total excess anticipated is £1,300, but of this amount £359 will lie met from savings under other Sub-heads of this Vote. The next item on Appropriations-in-Aid says:— The revised Estimate includes the sum recoverable from local authorities for returns under Section 9 of the Census Act, 1910, and also the additional cash fees which it is anticipated will accrue in respect of searches and certified copies. 10.0 p.m.

That is all right. But the original excess is not £950, but £1,300; therefore the original Appropriations-in-Aid from the charges on local authorities should have been not £1,070, but £1,300. There is £350 which apparently appears from savings under other Sub-heads of this Vote. I do not know what those other Sub-heads are; but if they are not contributions from local authorities, the Act which my hon. Friend has quoted has not been complied with. Under these circumstances I beg to move the reduction of the Vote.


I take it that these additional Estimates are expected to be exact Estimates, in order to complete the accounts. The note on Appropriations-in-Aid says:— The revised Intimate includes the sum recoverable from local authorities for returns under Section 9 of the Census Act. 1910. and also the additional cash fees which it is anticipated will accrue in respect of searches and certified copies. Suppose they do not amount to £1,070, how will the Estimates then balance? They would appear to have been made out very exactly, as we are asked to sanction an additional sum of only £5. But if it is anticipated that £ 1,070 will be received, it would appear that the accountants might just as well have anticipated the receipt of £1,075, in which case nothing would have been asked from the House.


The hon. Baronet the Member for the City of London knows that, although it is not possible for the Treasury to devote Appropriations-in-Aid to increased expenditure, it is competent for them to devote savings under one head to excesses under another head of the Vote. That has been done in this case temporarily. The hon. Baronet is quite right in saying there will be an extra sum of about £300 from the local authorities, which we do not anticipate will be collected this year, but it will come in at the commencement of the next financial year. For the present we are meeting this deficiency—not being able to collect that sum from the municipal authorities up to the 31st March—by savings on wages and other small heads of expenditure. In regard to the hon. Member who spoke last, we have been doing our best to make these Estimates exact. If we do not get the sum necessary, I presume we shall have to come back to the House and say the Estimates are not accurate and ask the House for a further sum.


May I point out the very unsatisfactory method of dealing with these accounts? We have nominally been asked to vote £5. As I understand the explanation, the hon. Gentleman will not be able to apply the £1,075 against the expenditure shown in this Estimate. If that is so, we are really being asked to vote £1,075; in other words, we are really being asked to sanction this Appropriation-in-Aid. I must say I think that very unsatisfactory. I have always thought that the national accounts were not a model of all that they ought to be so far as clearness is concerned, but if I rightly understand the explanation of the hon. Gentleman, this method of saving on the Estimates really is positively misleading. It would have been far better to have had a Supplementary Estimate in full and allow the Appropriation-in-Aid to go to the National Debt.


I really do not understand the explanation of the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman has said that if events did not run out as the Treasury anticipates the Government would have to come to the House for a further vote. Are we to understand that these savings from other items are only temporary savings, and that if the other sums recovered in the vote do eventuate as the Treasury anticipate that these savings will not be permanent, but that they will be carried over till next year It really seems to me a most muddle-headed way to keep the accounts of the nation. It is not competent to the Treasury, or any other authority, to carry over savings from one year to another. If there are savings in the current year they have to be applied for the purpose of the National Debt Commissioners in the reduction of the National Debt. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would give us an explanation to clear up this difficulty which he has left in the statement which he made to the House.


I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his statement. It did not appear what actually was going to be done till I asked the question. In view of what the hon. Gentleman has said I want to ask this: Next year, when he gets the £350 from the local authorities, what is he going to do with it? He ought to surrender it to the National Debt Commissioners, because there will be a surplus of £350; he will have got the money which ought to have been paid before the coming 31st March. He anticipates that he will not get it; therefore, what is he going to do with it when he does got it next year? £350 is a small sum when we are spending, something like £200,000,000, but it is not the sum which counts. It is much more than that. It is a principle which is at stake. Is the Treasury to be permitted, if they think it convenient, not to press certain debtors to pay their debts, but to take money from somewhere else which ought to go to the Old Sinking Fund to meet that debt? Under these circumstances I do not think it is possible to have a satisfactory explanation unless the hon. Gentleman gets up and says that he has made a mistake.


I think that my hon. Friends have made a very true point in respect of this £350. This procedure is in principle an entire departure from something Mr. Gladstone held absolutely sacred, namely, the "water-tightness"—if I may use such an expression—of each financial year. Personally I disagree from my hon. Friend. I have long thought, and argued years ago, that this system of the necessary surrender of balances at the end of the financial year was a mistake; but so long as it remains a principle, it ought not to have these trifling insidious exceptions. I frankly acknowledge that the above unexpended surplus may be carried on over the 31st March, of course, being used in the sum paid in the next financial year. What I want to ask is, why the Treasury allows these local authorities to get into debt to the Registrar-General's office at all. What is the need of it? Note the 9th Section of the Census Act of 1910. Why, therefore, ought this debt to be incurred by the central authority? Why not make the local authority deposit the estimated cost or something more than the estimated cost; or why not withhold some sum on the Local Taxation account that will likely cover the cost? The method proposed by the hon. Gentleman is an

entirely unbusinesslike system. Obviously these Appropriations-in-Aid are speculative. On some of the other items I find the Appropriations-in-Aid are sums definitely paid. It is true they have to be sanctioned by the House, but they are already tangible. These are not tangible. These are speculative. By admission they are not necessary to be paid in the same financial year. I appeal to the hon. Gentleman, the Member for Aberdeen opposite, whose views on direct taxation are so sound, and whose knowledge on these matters of accountancy is so varied and ample, as to whether he approved of this method?

Question put, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £900, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 94; Noes, 257.

Division No. 16.] AYES. [10.15 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Perkins, Walter F.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Gibbs, G. A. Peto, Basil Edward
Baldwin, Stanley Gilmour, Captain John Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barnston, Harry Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Randies, Sir John S.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Greene, W. R. Rawson, Colonel R. H.
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Rees, Sir J. D.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altringham) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bonn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Harris, Henry Percy Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Bigland, Alfred Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
Bridgeman, William Clive Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Burn, Colonel C. Ft. Hewins, William Albert Samuel Sanderson, Lancelot
Campion, W. R. Hills, John Waller Sandys, G. J.
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Cassel, Felix Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stewart, Gershom
Cator, John Homer, Andrew Long Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Cautley, H. S. Houston, Robert Paterson Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)
Cave, George Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) lngleby, Holcombe Touche, George Alexander
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Valentia, Viscount
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Walker, Colonel William Hall
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Watson, Hon. W.
Cooper. Sir Richard Ashmole Macmaster, Donald Wheler, Granville C. H.
Courthope, George Loyd Magnus, Sir Philip White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Mount, William Arthur Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Newman, John R. P. Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green,S.W.)
Denniss, E. R. B. Nield, Herbert Worthington-Evans, L.
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward
Du Pre, W. Baring Orde-Powleft, Hon. W. G. A. Younger, Sir George
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Ormsby-Gore. Hon. William
Fell, Arthur Paget, Almeric Hugh TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) F. Banbury and Mr. Gretton.
Gardner, Ernest
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Beale, Sir William Phipson Bryce, J. Annan
Acland, Francis Dyke Beauchamp, Sir Edward Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O.
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Beck, Arthur Cecil Burke, E. Haviland-
Agnew, Sir George William Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Burns, Rt. Hon. John
Ainsworth, John Stirling Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Byles, Sir William Pollard
Alden, Percy Black, Arthur W. Carr-Gomm, H. W.
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Boland, John Pius Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich)
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Booth, Frederick Handel Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood)
Arnold, Sydney Bowerman, Charles W. Chapple, Dr. William Allen
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Clancy, John Joseph
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Brace, William Clough, William
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Brady, Patrick Joseph Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Brocklehurst, W. B. Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.
Barnes, George N. Brunner, John F. L. Condon, Thomas Joseph
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Joyce, Michael Raffan, Peter Wilson
Cotton, William Francis Keating, Matthew Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Cowan, W. H. Kellaway, Frederick George Reddy, Michael
Crooks, William Kelly, Edward Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Crumley, Patrick Kennedy, Vincent Paul Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Cullinan, John Kenyon, Barnet Rendall, Athelstan
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Kilbride, Denis Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Dawes, James Arthur Lardner, James C. R. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Delany, William Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Robinson, Sidney
Devlin, Joseph Levy, Sir Maurice Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Dillon, John Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Donelan, Captain A. Lundon, Thomas Roe, Sir Thomas
Doris, William Lyell, Charles Henry Rowlands, James
Duffy, William J. Lynch, A. A. Rowntree, Arnold
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
'Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Maclean, Donald Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Macpherson, James Ian Scanian, Thomas
Essex, Sir Richard Walter MacVeagh, Jeremiah Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Falconer, James McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Farrell, James Patrick M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S.(Lincs., Spalding) Sheehy, David
Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles M'Micking, Major Gilbert Sherwell, Arthur James
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Marks, Sir George Croydon Shortt, Edward
Ffrench, Peter Meagher, Michael Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
Field, William Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Fitzgibbon, John Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Molloy, Michael Snowden, Philip
France, Gerald Ashburner Molteno, Percy Alport Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Gelder, Sir W. A. Money, L. G. Chiozza Sutton, John E.
Gill, A. H. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Gladstone, W. G. C. Mooney, John J. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) o
Glanville, Harold James Morgan, George Hay Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Worrell, Philip Tennant, Harold John
Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Morison, Hector Thomas, J. H.
Griffith, Ellis Jones Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Muldoon, John Thorne, William (West Ham)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Trevelyan, Charles philips
Hacked, John Nannetti, Joseph P. Verney, Sir Harry
Hancock, John George Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Walters, Sir John Tudor
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Nolan, Joseph Walton, Sir Joseph
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Norman, Sir Henry Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Hardie, J. Keir Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Wardle, George J.
Harmsworth. Cecil B. (Luton, Beds) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Waring, Walter
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Warner, Sir Thomss Courtenay T.
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Doherty, Philip Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Hayden, John Patrick O'Donnall, Thomas Watt, Henry A.
Hayward, Evan O'Dowd, John White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradcston)
Hazleton, Richard O'Kelly. Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Hemmerde, Edward George O'Malley, William White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Whyte, Alexander F.
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wiles, Thomas
Higham, John Sharp O'Shee, James John Wilkie, Alexander
Hinds, John j O'Sullivan, Timothy Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Palmer, Godfrey Mark Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Hodge, John Parker James (Halifax) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Holmes, Daniel Turner Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Holt, Richard Durning Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) Winfrey, Sir Richard
Hudson, Walter Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wing, Thomas Edward
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Firie, Duncan V. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
Illingworth, Percy H. Pointer, Joseph Yeo, A. W.
Johnson, W. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Young, William (Perthshire, East)
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Pratt, J. W. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Jones. William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Primrose, Hon. Neil James Gulland and Mr. Webb.
Jowett, F. W. Radford, G. H.

In consequence of the silence of the hon. Gentleman on the List occasion, I must ask him how these sums have to be recovered from the local authorities, and why it is necessary for them to run into debt. I refer to Item G. On what basis is the Estimate of £1,010 framed? It says that this £1,070 includes the sum recoverable from the local authorities under Section 9 of the Census Act, 1910, and also the additional cash fees which it is anticipated will accrue in respect of searches and certified copies; and we know from the last item that £1,300 was expended for returns for which the local authorities are ultimately responsible. Does the hon. Gentleman anticipate that the whole of this £1,300 will be collected at all? I take it that it will not be collected within the present financial year. I should also like to ask whether any part of this is due from private persons, because that is also contemplated under the Census Act in the same way. How is it that some can be collected within the financial year and that the sum of £350 will have to stand over until the next financial year? The whole thing appears to me extremely unbusinesslike. I cannot understand why either local authorities or private persons were ever allowed to get into debt.


I take it that these cash fees are paid by local authorities to people who dive into these records and have to make searches and get their copies and pay for them. I also take it that now there are old age pensions and also maternity benefits under the Insurance Act there is more necessity for these researches than before. Are the fees the same as ten years ago, or more? What does the word "additional" mean?


I think if the hon. Member looks at the note to the original Estimate he will find all the information for which he asks. These are local autho-

rities, and not persons, but I do not think, it is a case of getting into arrears with, their payments. The work of the Registrar-General takes some time, and some of the details which are asked for entail some research. The Act merely says that local authorities shall repay, but it does not say within any particular financial year. Some of these payments, without being in arrears, will not necessarily come in before 31st March. On the other hand, the salaries and wages have to be paid from week to week, or from month to month. For that reason they have been made temporarily, but next year they will appear again as Appropriations-in-Aid.


I wish to call attention to the habit of the Registrar-General in making charges for searches. I have already brought the matter to the notice of the Treasury by letter. It is a great hardship that a person who comes to search for a birth or a death—the occurrence is much more usual in those cases than in marriages—is compelled to pay 1s. for every name searched.


That is a matter which should be raised on the main Estimate and not on the Supplementary Vote. There is no change in that respect by these Estimates.

Original Question put.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 97.

Division No. 17.] AYES. [10.29 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Burke, E. Haviland- Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.)
Acland, Francis Dyke Burns, Rt. Hon. John Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Byles, Sir William Pollard Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, H.)
Agnew, Sir George William Carr-Gomm, H. W. Essex, Sir Richard Walter
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Falconer, James
Alden, Percy Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Farrell, James Patrick
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Chapple, Dr. William Allen Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Clancy, John Joseph Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson.
Arnold, Sydney clough, William Ffrench, Peter
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Field, William
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Fitzgibbon, John
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Condon, Thomas Joseph Flavin, Michael Joseph
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. France, Gerald Ashburner
Barnes, George N. Cotton, William Francis Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson
Beale, Sir William Phipson Cowan, W. H. Gelder, Sir W. A.
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Crooks, William Gill, A. H.
Beck, Arthur Cecil Crumley, Patrick Gladstone, W. G. C.
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Cullinan, John Glanville, Harold James
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Black, Arthur W. Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
Boland, John Pius Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Griffith, Ellis Jones
Booth, Frederick Handel Dawes, James Arthur Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
Bowerman, C. W. Delany, William Hackett, John
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Hancock, John George
Brace, William Devlin, Joseph Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)
Brady, Patrick Joseph Dillon, John Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Brocklehurst, W. B. Donelan, Captain A. Hardie, J. Keir
Brunner, John F. L. Doris, William Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)
Bryce, J. Annan Duffy, William J. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)
Buckmaster, Sir Stanley O. Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Montagu, Hon. E. S. Rowntree, Arnold
Hayden, John Patrick Mooney, John J. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Hayward, Evan Morgan, George Hay Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Hazleton, Richard Morrell, Philip Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Hemmerde, Edward George Morison, Hector Scanian, Thomas
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Muldoon, John Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Higham, John Sharp Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert Sheehy, David
Hinds, John Nannetti, Joseph P. Sherwell, Arthur James
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Shortt, Edward
Hodge, John Nolan, Joseph Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
Holmes, Daniel Turner Norman, Sir Henry Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Holt, Richard Durning Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Brlen, Patrick (Kilkenny) Snowden, Philip
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Hudson, Walter O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Doherty, Philip Sutton, John E.
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Donnell, Thomas Swann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E.
Johnson, W. O'Dowd, John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Malley, William Tennant, Harold John
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Thomas, J. H.
Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Jowett, Frederick William O'Shee, James John Thorne, William (West Ham)
Joyce, Michael O'Sullivan, Timothy Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Keating, Matthew Palmer, Godfrey Mark Verney, Sir Harry
Kellaway, Frederick George Parker, James (Halifax) Walters, Sir John Tudor
Kelly, Edward Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Walton, Sir Joseph
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pearce, William (Limehouse) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Kenyon, Barnet Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Wardle, George J.
Kilbride, Denis Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Waring, Walter
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pirie, Duncan V. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Lardner, James C. R. Pointer, Joseph Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Watt, Henry A.
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) Pratt, J. W. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Levy, Sir Maurice Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Lundon, Thomas Primrose, Hon. Neil James Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Lyell, Charles Henry Radford, G. H. Wlles, Thomas
Lynch, A. A. Raffan, Peter Wilson Wilkie, Alexander
Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Williams, Aneurin (Durham, N.W.)
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Reddy, Michael Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Macpherson, James Ian Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Rendall, Athelstan Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
M'Laren, Hon.F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Wilson, W. T. (Westhougton)
M'Micking, Major Gilbert Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Winfrey, Sir Richard
Marks, Sir George Croydon Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Wing, Thomas Edward
Meagher, Michael Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Yeo, A. W.
Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Robinson, Sidney Young, William (Perthshire, East)
Molloy, Michael Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Molteno, Percy Alport Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir Alfred Roe, Sir Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Money, L. G. Chiozza Rowlands, James Gulland and Mr. Webb.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Houston, Robert Paterson
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Hunter, Sir C. R.
Baldwin, Stanley Dalrymple, Viscount Ingleby, Holcombe
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury)
Barnston, Harry Denniss, E. R. B. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Du Pre, W. Baring Macmaster, Donald
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Magnus, Sir Philip
Bonn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Fell, Arthur Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)
Bigland, Alfred Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton)
Bird, Alfred Gardner, Ernest Mount, William Arthur
Bridgeman, William Clive Gibbs, G. A. Newman, John R. P.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Gilmour, Captain John Nield, Herbert
Campion, W. R. Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Greene, W. R. Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Cassel, Felix Gretton, John Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Cator, John Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Paget, Almeric Hugh
Cautley, H. S. Harris, Henry Percy Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Cave, George Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Perkins, Walter Frank
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Henderson, Sir A. (St. Geo., Han. Sq.) Peto, Basil Edward
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Hewins, William Albert Samuel Pollock, Ernest Murray
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Hills, John Waller Randies, Sir John S.
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Hohler, G. F. Rawson, Colonel R. H.
Cooper, Sir Richard Ashmole Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Rees, Sir J. D.
Courthope, Georgs Loyd Horner, Andrew Long Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesail)
Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) Talbot, Lord Edmund Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)
Salter, Arthur Clavell Touche, George Alexander Wilson, Maj. Sir M. (Bethnal Green, S. W.)
Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) Valentia, Viscount Worthington-Evans, L.
Sanders, Robert Arthur Walker, Colonel William Hall Yate, Colonel Charles Edward
Sanderson, Lancelot Watson, Hon. W. Younger, Sir George
Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) Wheler, Granville C. H.
Stewart, Gershom White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir
Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud F. Banbury and Major Gastrell.
Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)