HC Deb 05 August 1914 vol 65 cc2010-5

(1) Where any premises, which with the consent or knowledge of the landlord or his agent are used by the tenant as a dairy, by reason of this Act or any by-law or regulation made under this Act cannot continue to be so used unless the premises are altered or improved, the tenant may make such alterations or improvements, including the introduction of a sufficient water supply for the purposes of the dairy, as are reasonably necessary to enable the premises to continue to be so used, and recover from the landlord such proportion of the expenses incurred as may be just and equitable under the circumstances of the case regard being had to the terms of any contract between the parties:

Provided that the tenant, before beginning to execute such alterations or improvements, shall give to the landlord notice in writing of his intention to execute the alterations or improvements together with particulars thereof, and shall not proceed with the execution thereof if the landlord within twenty-eight days after receipt of the notice undertakes to execute the necessary alterations or improvements within a reasonable time.

(2) Any question as to the reasonable necessity of any alteration or improvement or as to the proportion of the expenses to be paid by the landlord in default of agreement shall be determined by a single arbiter in accordance with the provisions set out in the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908.

Mr. WATSON

I beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words, "or knowledge" ["with the consent or knowledge "], and insert instead thereof the words, "express or implied."

Major HOPE

I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. McKINNON WOOD

This is a matter of some difficulty, because, on the one hand, we do not wish to assume a knowledge. At the same time the word "consent" by itself may be held to imply formal or even written consent. I think the words now proposed by the hon. Member are a reasonable compromise, and will be a working compromise.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. McKINNON WOOD

had given notice of an Amendment, after the words "reasonable time," in the proviso, to insert the words "or requires that it shall be determined as provided for in Sub-section (2) of this Section whether there is any reasonable necessity for such alterations or improvements."

Mr. WATSON

I understand that the Secretary for Scotland is willing to accept an Amendment of mine which embodies the Amendment of which he has given notice. Perhaps it will be convenient if I read the words of the Amendment. I move, after the words "reasonable time," to insert the words "subject to the recovery from the tenant of such proportion of the expenses incurred as may be just and equitable under the circumstances of the case, regard being had to the term of any contract between the parties or with the landlord." Now come the words of which the right hon. Gentleman gave notice, "or requires that it shall be determined as provided for in Sub-section (2) of this Section whether there is any reasonable necessity for such alterations or improvements." Then I propose to add the words "or what proportion of the expenses shall be paid by the landlord and tenant respectively." The Clause, as it stands in the Bill, gives the tenant alone power, if he makes improvements, to recover any portion of the cost from the landlord. In many cases, undoubtedly, the landlord would be able more economically to make the improvements, and I think it would be fair that he should be given the option of making the improvements himself, but the Clause gives him no power to go to the arbiter and ask whether any portion should fall on the tenant or not. The additional words which I propose provide that if the landlord exercises the option he shall be entitled to recover the amount which the arbiter settles as fair and reasonable. There is this further point which I think is a substantial improvement, namely, that it would in many, if not in most, cases, be of great advantage to both landlord and tenant to know, before the alterations were executed, what proportion of the cost is going to fall on them respectively. The result of that would be that previous agreements would be come to in many cases, and thus the landlord and tenant would be saved having an arbitration at all. All the information would be before the arbiter before the alterations were made, and he would, therefore, be in a position to decide what proportion of the cost they had to pay if it had to be divided at all.

Mr. MCKINNON WOOD

This Amendment seems rather complicated. The Amendment of which I gave notice, and which is on the Paper, carries out the pledge which I gave in Committee. I think it should be made clear that it shall be open to the arbiter to decide whether the alterations are reasonable. What the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Watson) proposes, as I understand, is that it should be open to the arbiter before the alterations are made to consider what proportion of the cost should fall respectively on landlord and tenant. I do not think that is unreasonable, but as the amendment is not on the Paper the hon. and learned Gentleman will allow me, if I accept it now, to-reserve the right of considering the matter, and having it altered in another place. I think that is a businesslike way of dealing with the Amendment.

Mr. FALCONER

The previous Amendments which have been made have been passed without our having an opportunity of considering them. As to this particular Amendment, I confess quite frankly that I am unable to express any opinion upon it, because I only partly heard what the hon. Member said when he was explaining it. It appears to me that it affects the right of the tenant to have improvements made, or, rather, to deal with the conditions which affect his right when improvements are made. No one can express an opinion as to the practical effect of the Amendment without having an opportunity of considering it, and I would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland and the House that in the circumstances in which we are met there is a presumption in favour of the decision arrived at by the Committee and against this Amendment which may have a much more serious operation than we are able to appreciate without having an opportunity of considering it. We have allowed all the other Amendments to go through, but I do think that on this matter it would be wise to allow the decision of the Committee to be the decision of the House.

Mr. McKINNON WOOD

The Committee expressly desired us to insert the Amendment which I have on the Paper.

Mr. FALCONER

I am not objecting to the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment; I am objecting to the modification of it, which has been proposed by the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Watson). I am quite willing to allow the Amendment, which embodies the undertaking which the right hon. Gentleman gave to the Committee to go through, but with regard to the modification of it, I think the hon. Member ought not to press it, and the Secretary for Scotland ought really not to accept it.

Mr. HOGGE

I hope that the Secretary for Scotland will refuse to accept the Amendment. If it is inserted when the Bill goes to the House of Lords the Bill will come back here, and we can consider it then. I think that is fair. We Scottish Members spent four days upstairs on this Bill, and we should have an opportunity of looking at what this Amendment means. The Scottish Members know perfectly well that there are differences between the law of England and Scotland, and I suggest that the Secretary for Scotland, if he desires to accept the Amendment in the form in which it is proposed by the hon. Member, might have it inserted in the House of Lords in order that the Scottish Members, before it finally becomes law, may have an opportunity of objecting or agreeing to it.

Colonel GREIG

I entirely agree with what fell from my hon. Friend (Mr. Falconer). I represent a Constituency which is largely interested in the question of milk supply. This Clause was considered' in Committee upstairs, and the wording, subject to the Amendment, which the Secretary for Scotland was going to propose was carefully adjusted in order to give the tenant the fullest right in carrying on his business, and bringing the premises up to modern requirements without unnecessary interference or control by the landlord. Under these circumstances, I am very much afraid that the additional' words which have been sprung upon us at the last moment would have a serious effect on the people concerned in carrying out their business in the way they wish. I very much object to the Amendment.

Mr. WATSON

There is perhaps some misapprehension on the part of the hon. Gentlemen who have spoken in regard to the effect of the Amendment. I think they have entirely forgotten that Subsection (2) of this Section requires that a proportion of the expenses is to be settled by the arbiter. The question of dividing the expenses is not affected by this. Amendment at all. That is left absolutely open. I think the only changes the Amendment makes are two. First of all, it gives the landlord, if he chooses to execute the improvements, power to recover from the tenant the proportion of the expenses which the arbiter thinks just; and secondly, it gives him the opportunity of having the proportion settled before the improvements are actually carried out.

Mr. WATT

I hoped that the Secretary for Scotland would have agreed to the suggestion made by my hon. Friend, the Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Hogge) to postpone his acceptance of the Amendment. I think it is being too lightly accepted. There will be no harm in delaying the matter until the Bill comes back from another place to be considered in this House. Surely he will agree to that as a compromise, rather than ask us to swallow the Amendment moved by the hon. Member opposite? This Amendment comes from the side that has opposed the measure, and I think we should have sufficient time to consider it.

Mr. SCOTT DICKSON

I suppose we are all anxious to get this Bill. It is all very well to talk of giving additional time to consider the Amendment, but if it is not accepted now, the result may be that the Bill will not come back from the other House at all. At this time of the Session, I think it is dangerous to have any delay in the matter. The Secretary for Scotland has quite fairly asked that he should be allowed to reserve the right to consider the Amendment, and, if there is any objection to it, to give effect to that objection in the other place. I think the better course would be to take the line which the right hon. Gentleman suggests, subject to the Amendment receiving reconsideration by him.

Mr. FALCONER

I entirely concur with what has fallen from the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Scott Dickson). I am perfectly willing to act on the suggestion of the Secretary for Scotland if he will give an opportunity for considering and discussing the Amendment when the Bill comes back from another place.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. WATSON

I beg to move, in Subsection (2), after the word "landlord" ["paid by the landlord"], to insert the words "and the tenant respectively."

Amendment agreed to.

Bill read the third time, and passed.