HC Deb 15 April 1914 vol 61 cc184-91
East Africa Protectorate 1,855,000
Nyasaland 816,000
Uganda 329,000

I beg to move, before the words "East Africa," to insert the word "British."

I have put this Amendment down in order to obtain a statement from the right hon. Gentleman as to what is the correct method of describing this part of the British Empire. There seems to be a doubt, because it is referred to in different terms in different parts of the same Bill. In all the other references to this part of the Empire these Protectorates are described as British East Africa, and it seems desirable that the same terminology should be followed throughout to avoid any confusion and in order to make the Bill more satisfactory and accurate.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt)

I do not think it is necessary to make this arrangement. It is sometimes referred to as the East Africa Protectorate and sometimes as the British East Africa Protectorate. I am not sure which should be regarded as the highest term of art, but, at any rate, we have taken the precaution of covering both those terms, because the Title covers one and the Schedule the other. [HON. MEM-BERS: "Speak up!" and "We cannot hear you"] I do not think it is necessary to make any alteration in the Schedule as it stands.


I am not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman. What is the actual position? The title of the Bill says that we are to authorise certain loans to the Protectorates of British East Africa, Nyasaland and Uganda, and then when Ave come to the Schedule it is East Africa Protectorate. East Africa is a very large tract of country, and, as far as I know, we only have a protectorate over a certain portion of it, and unless you put in the word "British" it might mean the whole of East Africa. If Germany or France were to establish a protectorate over any portion of East Africa, the question might arise as to which of the two Protectorates this loan referred. This is a very small Amendment, and it would assimilate the Schedule to the description which has already appeared in the Bill. I can only think of one reason why the right hon. Gentleman does not accept the Amendment, and that is, that he does not want a Report stage. That is an absurd reason. The Bill has been drawn up in a slip-shod way, and has not been presented in a careful form to the House, and I see no reason why we should not insert the word "British" merely in order to avoid a Report stage. I suggest, as a lesson to the Government that they must not refuse Amendments merely in order to save a Report stage, that my hon. and gallant Friend presses this Amendment to a Division.

Sir J. D. REES

I have supported the Bill right through on every occasion, and I hope that I may be allowed to press upon the right hon. Gentleman that this is a very reasonable Amendment to make. The fact that East Africa is part German is a reason for adhering strictly to correct terminology. I would address to the right hon. Gentleman an argument which he applied to myself when I referred to the Uganda Railway as being situated in Uganda, although I knew perfectly well that it ran through the whole of British East Africa. The right hon. Gentleman then said that these mistakes are made frequently, even by people who ought to know better. That is a reason why, in dealing with this Schedule, the same terminology should be adopted as is adopted earlier in the Bill. There is every reason for discouraging loose alternative nomenclature in a case like this, and I therefore venture to add my voice to the appeals made to the right hon. Gentleman.


I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen opposite will move as consequential Amendments to introduce the word "British" before Nyasaland and Uganda. I shall raise the point in a very definite way on the Third Reading, which I think will be more convenient. I intend to know whether these districts are in the British Empire or not, and before the Bill eaves this House I shall have another attempt. I have never yet had an answer to my question. It is quite true that the Motion to introduce the word "British" here does raise that question, but it does not do so as definitely as I hope to be able to do on the Third Reading. I rose to inquire with regard to the consequential Amendments. I would prefer that the word should apply to all three, on the ground that if they are not British they should not have our guarantee. It is not at all clear why the word "British" is objected to. I suspect that it is because they dare not face answering the very pertinent inquiry I have made as to whether these districts are within the British Empire or not. Therefore, if this goes to a Division, I shall vote for the Amendment in order to test that point.


The only reason I have adhered to the words "East Africa Protectorate" is that they are in the Order in Council of 1902, which, under the authority of this House, constitutes those territories a Protectorate of the British Empire. I have followed the nomenclature of that Order in Council.


I do not know why hon. Members opposite insist on trying to move these Amendments. They know perfectly well, as we on this side know, that the whole of this Committee stage is a pure farce. They know perfectly well that not a single Amendment can be accepted, and as long as Bills like this are discussed on the floor of this House instead of in Committee upstairs, the big battations of terrace voters will always vote down the best arguments. This Bill has got to be rushed through, and there is to be no Report stage, and in order to have no Report stage you must have no alteration even of a comma in Committee. It is therefore perfectly obvious that this simple Amendment cannot be accepted by the Government, and if it goes to a Division the hon. Member opposite, as the hon. Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) knows perfectly well, will be beaten as usual. The hon. Member for East Nottingham would not have ventured to have supported this Amendment if he had thought that it was going to be carried. He knows perfectly well that he can make his protest of independence, and at the same time not risk losing his Bill. I hope for that reason that the Committee will not be put to the trouble of a Division.


I should like to say a word in support of what has fallen from the hon. Member opposite. I have always known that this Bill, and, indeed, every Bill, ought to go to a Committee upstairs to be discussed if there is to be any real freedom to hon. Members of this House. This is a particularly scandalous instance—although I have not taken any part in the Debate, having no strong view one way or the other—of voting down all Amendments without regard to their merits in order to avoid a Report stage. The result of that is that, under the guise of keeping a greater control in this House as a whole, you get rid not only of the Report stage but of the Committee stage as well. In point of fact you deprive this House and all its Members of any control over the details of the Bill once a Minister has resolved that he does not desire to have a Report stage. I think this is a scandalous instance of the abuse of the forms of this House. We hear a good deal of the wickedness of private Members when they make use of the forms of the

House to carry out their will, but the Government are allowed to do what they like and to make scandalous and outrageous use of the forms of the House in order to carry out their will. I do not think the sneer with regard to my hon. Friend the Member for East Nottingham (Sir J. D. Rees) is deserved. Whatever his faults are, he does not lack courage. He is not like the Labour party.

Question put, "That the word 'British' be there inserted."

The Committee divided; Ayes, 55; Noes, 113.

Division No. 77.] AYES. [3.30 p.m.
Baird, John Lawrence Grant, James Augustus Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Harris, Henry Percy Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Barnes, George N. Hibbert, Sir Henry F. Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Barnston, Harry Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Bird, Alfred Hunt, Rowland Thorne, William (West Ham)
Booth, Frederick Handel Jowett, Frederick William Thynne, Lord Alexander
Bridgeman, William Clive Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Larmor, Sir J. Watson, Hon. W.
Campion, W. R. Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Mallaby-Deeley, Harry Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Yate, Colonel Charles Edward
Craik, Sir Henry Parker, James (Halifax) Younger, Sir George
Duncannon, Viscount Peto, Basil Edward
Gilmour, Captain John Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Goldsmith, Frank Rees, Sir J. D. Sandys and Captain Weigall.
Goldstone, Frank
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Duffy, William J. Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
Acland, Francis Dyke Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Adamson, William Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Kellaway, Frederick George
Addison, Dr. Christopher Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Alden, Percy Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Kenyon, Barnet
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Esslemont, George Birnie King, Joseph
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Farrell, James Patrick Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick Burghs) Ffrench, Peter Leach, Charles
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Field, William Levy, Sir Maurice
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Fitzgibbon, John Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert
Bentham, George Jackson Flavin, Michael Joseph Lyell, Charles Henry
Black, Arthur W. Gill, A. H. Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Boland, John Plus Glanville, Harold James McGhee, Richard
Bowerman, Charles W. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Maclean, Donald
Brace, William Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Brady, Patrick (Joseph) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Macpherson, James Ian
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hackett, John MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Hancock, John George M'Callum, Sir John M.
Byles, Sir William Pollard Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Marshall, Arthur Harold
Clancy, John Joseph Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Molloy, Michael
Clough, William Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Montagu, Hon. E. S.
Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Havelock-Allan. Sir Henry Mooney, John J.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morgan, George Hay
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Henry, Sir Charles Morrell, Philip
Crooks, William Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Crumley, Patrick Higham, John Sharp Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert
Cullinan, John Hinds, John Needham, Christopher T.
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Hodge, John Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hogge, James Myles Nolan, Joseph
Dawes, James Arthur Holmes, Daniel Turner Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Delany, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Johnson, W. O'Dowd, John
Donelan, Captain A. Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Doris, William Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Malley, William
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Robertson, John M. (Tynaside) Verney, Sir Harry
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Robinson, Sidney Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
O'Shee, James John Roe, Sir Thomas Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rothorham) Rowlands, James Webb, H.
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Pointer, Joseph Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Pratt, J. W. Shortt, Edward Williams, Jonn (Glamorgan)
Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Primrose, Hon. Neil James Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Pringle, William M. R. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wing, Thomas Edward
Radford, G. H. Tennant, Harold John Yeo, Alfred William
Reddy, Michael Thomas, J. H.
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.

I cannot take the next Amendment on the Paper, in the name of the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Wedgwood). It seems to me to be trifling with the Committee.


I desire to move the Amendment to reduce the amount for British East Africa by £5,000, in order to increase the amount allotted to Uganda by the same sum. That is my reason for moving the Amendment. I also want to protest against the way in which the Bill

has been rushed through the House. If I am in order, I would like to indicate what has taken place over this Bill—


The hon. Member must wait for the Third Reading.

Question put, "That the Chairman do report the Bill, without Amendment, to the House."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 170; Noes, 29.

Division No. 78.] AYES. [3.39 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Esslemont, George Birnie Levy, Sir Maurice
Acland, Francis Dyke Farrell James Patrick Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert
Addison, Dr. Christopher Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Lyell, Charles Henry
Alden Percy Ffrench, Peter Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Field, William McGhee, Richard
Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Fitzgibbon, John Maclean, Donald
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Flavin, Michael Joseph Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gill, A. H. Macpherson, James Ian
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Gilmour, Captain John MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Barnston, Harry Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Callum, Sir John M.
Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) Glanville, Harold James McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marshall, Arthur Harold
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Grant, James Augustus Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix)
Benn W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Molloy, Michael
Bentham, George Jackson Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Montagu, Hon. E. S.
Black, Arthur W. Hackett, John Mooney, John J.
Boland, John Plus Hancock, J. G. Morgan, George Hay
Brady, Patrick Joseph Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Morrell, Philip
Bull, Sir William James Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Burn, Colonel C. R. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Munro, Rt. Hon. Robert
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Needham, Christopher T.
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Henry, Sir Charles Nolan, Joseph
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Clancy, John Joseph Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Clough, William Hinds, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Collins, Sir Stephen (Lambeth) Hodge, John O'Dowd, John
Condon, Thomas Joseph Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) O'Malley, William
Craik, Sir Henry Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Neill. Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Crooks, William Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Crumley, Patrick Johnson, W. O'Shee, James John
Cullinan, John Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Peto, Basil Edward
Dawes, James Arthur Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Delany, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pointer, Joseph
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Kellaway, Frederick George Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Dickinson, Rt. Hon. Willoughby H. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Pratt, J. W.
Donelan, Captain A. King, Joseph Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Doris, William Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Radford, G. H.
Duffy, William J. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Melton) Rawlinson, Sir John Frederick Peel
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Reddy, Michael
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Larmor, Sir J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Duncannon, Viscount Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Rees, Sir J. D.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Leach, Charles Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Sykes, Alan John (Chas., Knutsford) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Robinton, Sidney Talbot, Lord Edmund White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Roe, Sir Thomas Tennant, Harold John Whyte, Alexander F (Perth)
Rowlands, James Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Thynne, Lord Alexander Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Sanders, Robert Arthur Verney, Sir Harry Wing, Thomas Edward
Sandys, G. J. Waring, Walter Yate, Colonel C. E.
Scott, A. MacCallum, (Glas., Bridgeton) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Yeo, Alfred William
Shortt, Edward Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) Younger, Sir George
Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook Watson, Hon. W.
Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Webb, H. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Welgall, Captain A. G. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Adamson, William Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Pringle, William M. R.
Baring, Major Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Goldsmith, Frank Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Barnes, George N. Goldstone, Frank Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Harris, Henry Percy Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)
Booth, Frederick Handel Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Thomas, J. H.
Bowerman, Charles W. Hoare, Samuel John Gurney Thorne, William (West Ham)
Brace, William Hogge, James Myles Wilson, Captain Leslie O. (Reading)
Bridgeman, William Olive Jowett, Frederick William
Bytes, Sir William Pollard Mallaby-Deeley, Harry TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Campion, W. R. Parker, James (Halifax) Wedgwood and Mr. J. Ward.
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported without Amendment; to be, read the third time to-morrow (Thursday).