HC Deb 01 November 1913 vol 43 cc732-4

In Sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section two (relating to procuration) of the Criminal Law Amendment Act, 1885, there shall be inserted after the words "inmate of" the words "or frequent."

Mr. ANNAN BRYCE

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." This Clause makes a slight alteration of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885. There is no alteration in principle, but the ground is more fully covered.

Mr. KING

I beg to second the Motion.

The UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. Ellis Griffith)

The new Clause makes a slight alteration, which is, I think, an improvement upon the Section, and we are prepared to accept it.

Mr. RAWLINSON

This Clause only appeared upon the Paper this morning. I have not been able to look up the Section. Very likely the new Clause may be perfectly unobjectionable, but I think it would be better that the Government should read the Section as it stands now and also as it would read with the proposed words inserted.

Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITH

Sub-section (3) of the Act of 1885 now reads— Any person who"—these are the governing words—"procures or attempts to procure any woman or girl to leave the United Kingdom with intent that she may become an inmate of a brothel elsewhere— And my hon. Friend proposes to add the words "or frequents," so that it would read, "with intent that she may become an inmate of or frequents a brothel else-where."

Sir F. BANBURY

And Sub-section.

Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITH

Exactly the same change is made there. Sub-section (4) of the same Act says— Procures or attempts to procure any woman or girl to leave her usual place of abode in the United Kingdom (such place not being a brothel) with intent that she may, for the purposes of prostitution, become an inmate of a brothel within or without the Queen's Dominions. The words "or frequents" comes in after "inmate of."

Mr. G. GREENWOOD

I think we are taking rather a dangerous course, at very short notice and without fuller consideration, in putting in these words. We are raising again the whole question of the Criminal Law Amendment Act. I do not know whether the Home Secretary has considered such a case as Durose and Wilson, recently decided. A number of women lived in a block that had many different flats, and it was proved that men were brought to these flats, although there was no evidence that there was more than one woman in each flat. The magistrate held that that was a brothel, and the judges came to the conclusion that they could not hold that he was wrong in so deciding that that was a brothel. Now you are going to make it a criminal offence for a man to procure or attempt to procure any woman to resort to a flat of that sort because there was some woman engaged in prostitution in that block of flats. It seems to me you open the way for charges against a man not contemplated by those who moved this Amendment. I hope a little more consideration will be given to this matter before we agree to amend the Act in this particular way.

The LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. Ure)

I cannot say that I have read the decision to which my hon. Friend has referred, but so far as I can gather from his arguments his point is whether or not under the Criminal Law Amendment Act it is necessary in order to secure his object to insert the words "or frequent." I think it would be held under the Act of 1885 that a woman must take up her abode if she is an inmate, whereas the House desires that the Act should not be confined to those who have an abode at these places, but should also apply to the cases where a woman visits the house regularly and stays, say, for several hours, and so frequents the house. The offence is the same in both cases. This Amendment is not a large one, but it is valuable because it covers a case which undoubtedly the Act of 1885 did not cover.

Mr. WALTER GUINESS

I would like to ask whether it is not a fact that these words have a much wider application than has been suggested. If you do not add some further definition and insert the words "for immoral purposes," you may incur the risk of such persons as cooks, maids and domestic servants employed for other purposes being prosecuted for frequenting such places.

Sir F. BANBURY

That shows the difficulty of these new Clauses being brought forward at this particular time. I think, however, that my hon. Friend may rest assured that the words he desires to insert are already in the Bill.

Mr. W. GUINNESS

They are not in Sub-section (3)

Sir F. BANBURY

I think that applies only to cases out of this country. Although I do not particularly object to this Amendment, as the Law Officers are not present I hope the hon. Member will withdraw it.

Sir FREDERICK LOW

I think the Committee ought to exercise considerable caution before adopting an Amendment like this, because of the extreme difficulty of construing what the words mean. If it said, "to frequent for immoral purposes," or "for purposes of prostitution," the meaning would be clearer, but I am afraid that the words suggested expose the Section to the difficulty which the hon. Member (Mr. Guinness) has pointed out.

Mr. BRYCE

I ask leave to withdraw this Clause, and I hope the Government will endeavour in another place to meet the views which have been expressed on this point.

Motion and Clause, by leave, withdrawn.