HC Deb 02 June 1913 vol 53 cc691-4

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. BOOTH

I hope the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means will forgive me for putting an inquiry to him in reference to this Bill. As I understand, this is an annual measure which roust come for the review of this House. Several questions occur to me in reading through the tables upon which I should like enlightenment, but I have decided that the wiser course would be to seek an explanation from Members connected with the county council itself rather than to raise those questions at this point. I take it that, while this House has a distinct right to review the finance of the London County Council when this Bill is presented, the object is not that we should have controversy upon the details of administration, particularly under Acts already sanctioned and powers already given, but that in any case of supreme importance and emergency there should be a right in this House to have the matter definitely raised and a discussion thereupon. I should like some clear indication from the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means as to what is the right of Members of this House in reference to this Bill every year. As I say, I think my best course would be, not to raise now a number of points which occur to me, but first of all to get an explanation in some other way, and then, if I think them important enough, to claim my right next year of having questions answered or information given to the House. It would, however, be for our convenience to have an indication as to how far our rights extend in reviewing the very important and numerous matters contained in the Bill and the accompanying tables.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS (Mr. Maclean)

I do not suppose that I shall make a rather complicated matter clear, but I will do my best. As I understand, these Bills of the London County Council, formerly of the Metropolitan Board of Works, used to be public Bills, but owing to the operation of Standing Order No. 194, which was framed in the year 1901, if these Bills comply with certain conditions there laid down they can be introduced as private Bills, as is done upon this occasion. One of those conditions is that the spending and the borrowing of the money of the London County Council shall be completed within a certain time, not later than the 30th September in each year. That makes it necessary that an annual Money Bill should be introduced. The rather complicated history of this matter was summed up by the Act of 1912. The joint operation of that Act and of Standing Order No. 194 (a) (b) (c) (d) and (e), to which I refer my hon. Friend, make it necessary for the London County Council to come forward and present this Bill in the way they are now doing.

Mr. CASSEL

As one of the Members whose names appear on the back of the Bill, perhaps I may say a word in reply to the hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Booth). The hon. Member was perfectly correct in saying that this House has a right to discuss any matter which comes before it. It would be impossible to suggest that the House should be asked to give a Second Reading to a Bill without having full liberty to discuss any question arising out of that Bill. At the same time, I think it is a right which the House would be advised to exercise sparingly, and only under conditions which render such a course necessary; because if this House, in addition to all its other duties, and having regard to the fact that business is already considerably congested, were to take upon itself to review din detail the whole of the financial proposals of the London County Council, and therefore to a large extent those of other local authorities, the congestion from which we are suffering would become very much worse. The hon. Member has not brought forward any specific points to which I can address myself; therefore I will content myself by saying that I fully recognise the right which he has claimed, but at the same time I consider it a right which the House ought to exercise sparingly.

Captain JESSEL

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to the hon. Member for Pontefract for having brought this question to the notice of the House. I am glad to hear raised from that quarter the plea that the House of Commons should have some jurisdiction over the finance of a body such as the London County Council. This Bill is a legacy from the old Metropolitan Board of Works, brought up to date by the Act of 1912. The hon. Member has not brought forward any specific points, and, having obtained a decision from the Deputy-Chairman of Ways and Means, he has reserved his right to deal with any questions next year. I remember when we were on the other side of the House, and there was a Progressive majority on the London County Council, it was often said that the House of Commons had nothing to do with the finance of London or of the London County Council. We, however, always contended that it had, and I am very glad that the hon. Member and his Friends now join us in substantiating that claim.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a second time, and committed.