§ (1) The sum of six hundred thousand pounds applicable under Section nine of the Finance Act, 1908, for or in connection with public offices on land at Westminster may, so far as not required for that purpose, be applied to the extent of one hundred and forty-five thousand pounds in defraying any expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works in erecting buildings and executing other works for or in connection with the museum, office, and college mentioned in the Schedule to this Act, and the said Section nine shall have effect accordingly.
§ Mr. BENNETT-GOLDNEYI beg to move, at the end of the Clause, to add the words, "Provided that the designs for the proposed new buildings which are not completions to existing blocks shall be thrown open to fair public competition, and that the choice of the selected designs shall be decided by the First Commissioner, with the assistance of a body of persons equally competent to adjudicate upon architectural questions of the kind, and that the architectural staff in the employment of the Office of Works shall be permitted to compete on equal terms with other competitors."
678 At this late hour I must ask the indulgence, even of this smiling House, while I appeal to every Member of every party to give undivided support to this Amendment. I have no desire to throw any difficulties in the way if this very reasonable Amendment is accepted. The justification for it is too obvious to require explanation. We have only to use our eyes to see the indubitable necessity of the Amendment and the principles which it involves. By this apparently innocent little Bill it is proposed to spend £145,000 of public money upon public buildings. But in the Estimate which has been prepared so far no vestige of any design whatever of elevation or of style of architecture has been presented either to this House or to the Department which is responsible for the spending of the money. It is perfectly true that upstairs it was hurriedly suggested that the designs of these public buildings, costing the State a vast sum of money, should be left to the permanent staff of the Office of Works. But what are the reasons which are adduced for this very peculiar state of things? The only reason given is that the permanent staff is a singularly expensive staff and the head of that staff is a very amiable and very estimable public official. Although there are Members here who jeer, yet the public will treat this question more seriously than they do. An enlightened public opinion, supported by an unanimous Press, demands that our future public buildings shall be more worthy of the capital of the Empire and more worthy of the great Department which is responsible for building them.
I ask every Member of this House, even at this moment of levity, to support this Amendment. You may go to any part of London, you may go to any town and see public buildings of which every Englishman who understands anything about architecture is absolutely ashamed. I do not want for one moment to blame the present Government any more than to blame past Governments. You have only to look at the pepper boxes, as I believe they were called, on the top of the National Gallery, or, to come down to mid-Victorian days, at the Albert Hall and the Albert Memorial. There is not an hon. Member 679 who does not remember the remark made by an eminent German statesman when he was being shown round London and was asked what he thought of its buildings:—
Yes, yes. Very good, but why not place the ornament upon the top of the cake?The time has come when we should insist upon every design for great public buildings being thrown open to competition. It may be said, with perfect truth, that where that has been done the results have not always been satisfactory. We know that was the case with the Admiralty Buildings. It was not because those designs were thrown open to competition that we were given that ridiculous block of buildings, but because there was no proper body to judge the designs when they were sent in. I believe that if the First Commissioner of Works would only combine with the Institute of Architects and the Royal Academy, he would easily be able to bring together a body of men who would be able to adjudicate fairly and squarely between the different designs sent in for competition. Although I cannot expect at the present moment to obtain the serious attention of the House, I hope every Member will agree that in future, so far as public buildings are concerned, the designs shall be open to competition, and judged by an unbiassed and competent body of men. Upon these grounds I hope that the hon. Gentleman who is responsible for the Government in this particular matter will accept the Amendment, and that we shall not have reason to be so ashamed of our public buildings which are erected in the future as we are of those which have been erected in the past.
§ Mr. MacVEAGH rose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERDoes the hon. Gentleman rise to second the Amendment?
§ Mr. MacVEAGHYes, Sir, I beg to second the Amendment, because as far as I could hear his arguments I should be inclined to agree with them. But I am not convinced that I see my way to support him in the Division Lobby, because I do not agree with the methods which he and his Friends have adopted to secure a majority in the Division. I have here a copy of a document in the following terms:—
Private and confidential. Please come—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat has nothing to do with this.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIt is a circular inviting Unionist Members to be here this evening.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIt has no relation to this Amendment.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHIt does not say so.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI will call on some other hon. Member to second it if the hon. Member does not take it seriously.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHMay I submit that this document does not state for what purpose—
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is quite irrelevant.
§ Mr. A. F. WHYTEI beg to second the Amendment.
This proposition deserves some consideration, and I believe the Office of Works may be disposed to accept it in view of what has happened in relation to this question in Scotland. The Office of Works refused for some time to consider the question of throwing open to competition the designs of proposed new buildings in Scotland, but under considerable pressure, both inside and outside the House, they agreed that open competition would probably result in the selection of better designs than the Office of Works itself would produce, and in consequence of that decision I believe my hon. Friend who represents that Department may be not unwilling to accept this reasonable Amendment.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD BENNI hope the hon. Member will not press the Amendment. These are not very big public buildings, and they are not very expensive buildings, and although it is the practice of the Office of Works to throw open to public competition large and important buildings, they also retain a staff of architects for the purpose of designing and carrying out smaller buildings of this kind. The objection I have to the Amendment is that it is unnecessary and would involve considerable expense.
§ Sir F. BANBURYI am of opinion that the course pursued by the hon. Gentleman is the right one, and I could not vote for the Amendment. I believe a considerable sum of money is saved for the State by the methods which are pursued by the Office of Works, and I shall be obliged to support the Government.
§ Mr. KELLAWAYI am inclined to support the Amendment because everyone 681 who is acquainted with the public buildings in London knows their deficiencies not only in regard to outside design but inside accommodation. I am assured in regard to this palace in which we are met that six hon. Members opposite have been
§ forced to-night to make use of one bathroom.
§ Question put, "That those words be there added."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 90; Noes, 244.
683| Division No. 238.] | AYES. | [11.30 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Gardner, Ernest | Mount, William Arthur |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Gibbs, George Abraham | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gilmour, Captain John | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Banner, Sir John S. Harmood- | Goldsmith, Frank | Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barnston, Harry | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gretton, John | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Beach. Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gwynne,.R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) | Scott. Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Helmsley, Viscount | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Cassel, Felix | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hills, John Waller | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Cator, John | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Horner, Andrew Long | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hunt, Rowland | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lewisham, Viscount | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lloyd. George Butler (Shrewsbury) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampoon, G. (Salisbury) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | MacCaw, Wm, J. MacGeagh | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Fell, Arthur | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.Bennett-Goldney and Mr. Whyte. |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | France, Gerald Ashburner |
| Adamson, William | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Cecil, Lard R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Gill, A. H. |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Clancy, John Joseph | Glanville, H J. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Clough, William | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Greig, Colonel J. W. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Cory, Sir Clifford John | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Cotton, William Francis | Hackett, John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hancock, J. G. |
| Ballour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Crumley, Patrick | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cullinan, John | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton. Beds) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Barnes, George N. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) |
| Barton, William | Dawes, James Arthur | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | De Forest, Baron | Hayward, Evan |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Hazleton, Richard |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Devlin, Joseph | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Dillon, John | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Doris, William | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Bird, Alfred | Duffy, William J. | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Edwards. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Hewart, Gordon |
| Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Hibbert, Sir Henry F. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Elverston, Sir Harold | Higham, John Sharp |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Hinds, John |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hodge, John |
| Brace, William | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Hogge, James Myles |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Ffrench. Peter | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Field, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Fitzgibbon, John | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Norman, Sir Henry | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Rowlands, James |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Nuttall, Harry | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sandys, G. J. |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Kelly, Edward | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Doherty, Philip | Sheehy, David |
| Kllbride, Denis | O'Donnell. Thomas | Shortt, Edward |
| King, Joseph | O'Dowd, John | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Grady, James | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Lardner, James C. R. | O'Malley, William | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Larmor, Sir J. | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Stanier, Beville |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | O'Shee, James John | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Sutherland, John E. |
| Lundon, Thomas | Outhwaite, R. L. | Sutton, John E. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Parker, James (Halifax) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lynch, A. A. | Parkes, Ebenezer | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Parry, Thomas H. | Tennant, Harold John |
| McGhee, Richard | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pointer, Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Walters. Sir John Tudor |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Pringle, William M. R. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Waring, Walter |
| Manfield, Harry | Radford, G. H. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T. |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Webb, H. |
| Marshall, Arthur Harold | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | White J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Meagher, Michael | Reddy, Michael | Wiles, Thomas |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrlm, N.) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Redmond, Wiliam (Clare, E.) | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Molloy, Michael | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Mooney, John J. | Richardson, Alblon (Peckham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Morrell, Philip | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wood. Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow) |
| Muldoon, John | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Young, William (Perthshire, East) |
| Munro, Robert | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Younger, Sir George |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Robinson, Sidney | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | |
| Nolan, Joseph | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
Question put, and agreed to.