§ (1) On the conviction by a court of competent jurisdiction of any person of any offence punishable with penal servitude or imprisonment, or on a child brought before a court under section fifty-eight of the Children Act, 1908, being found liable to be sent to an industrial school, the court, if satisfied on medical evidence that, he is a defective within the meaning of this Act, may either—
- (a) postpone passing sentence or making an order for committal to an industrial school, and direct that a petition be presented to a judicial authority under this Act with a view to obtaining an order that he be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship; or
- (b) in lieu of passing sentence or making an order for committal to an industrial school, itself make any order which if a petition had been duly presented under this Act the judicial authority might have made, which order shall have the like effect as if it had been made by a judicial authority on a petition under this Act:
§ (2) The court may act either on the evidence given during the trial, or may call for further medical or other evidence.
230§ (3) Where the court so directs a petition to be presented against a person, it may order him to be detained in an institution for defectives or in a place of safety for such time as is required for the presentation of the petition.
§ (4) Where it appears to any court of summary jurisdiction by which a person charged with an offence is remanded or committed for trial that such person is a defective, the court may order that pending the further hearing or trial he shall be detained in an institution for defectives, or be placed under the guardianship of any person on that person entering into a recognisance for his appearance.
§ (5) Where it appears to the police authority that any person charged with an offence is a defective, they shall communicate with the local authority, and it shall be the duty of the police authority to bring before the court such evidence as to his mental condition as may be available:
§ Provided that where it is intended to bring such evidence before the court the police authority shall give notice of the intention to the person charged, and to his parent or guardian, if known.
§ Mr. GOLDSMITHI beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name—to leave out the word "medical" ["if satisfied on medical evidence"] and to insert instead thereof the word "the."
2.0 A.M.
The effect of this Amendment would be that instead of the Clause reading "the Court if satisfied on medical evidence" would read "the Court if satisfied on the evidence of two medical practitioners." I should like to point out to the House that under this Clause as it 231 stands anyone who is brought up before a Court of competent jurisdiction or a child brought before the Court under Section 58 of the Children Act, 1908, can be sent to a home for mental defectives on the evidence of one medical officer only. This is an Amendment desired by the London County Council. The object of the Amendment is to secure that no one can be dealt with as a defective except on the certificates of two medical men. Nowhere else in the Bill as it stands can a person be dealt with as a defective on the evidence of one medical man only. There is no difference "between this Clause and the other Clauses so far as principle is concerned. The only way in which it does differ is that in this case the medical evidence is given not in writing but orally. I cannot see that this affords any ground for relying on the evidence of one medical man only, and I therefore hope the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to accept both this Amendment and the consequential Amendment which I shall move afterwards if he accepts this one. I hope that in his answer the right hon. Gentleman will give us his reason why in this Clause, and this Clause only, one medical man is deemed sufficient.
§ Captain JESSELI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. McKENNAThe hon. Member apprehends, as I gather from his speech, that in the words of the Clause as they now stand the evidence of one medical man is contemplated under the Bill. That is really not so. In this case all that the Bill does is to leave to the Court the decision as to the quantity of evidence which the Court thinks right in order to come to a decision. We do not propose to lay down to a Court what is the amount of evidence which should be taken in order to establish a fact. The conditions here are not the same as in an ordinary case of proceeding before an authority under the Act. This relates to a Court of competent jurisdiction which is already engaged in trying the defective on some other matter, and, a question of fact arising before the Court, the Court has to be convinced on the question of fact; but we leave the Court to determine the amount of evidence that is necessary. It is quite true the Court may be satisfied with the evidence of one medical man, but it is much more likely that the Court will require the evidence of two, three, or four medical men.
§ Mr. GOLDSMITHI should like to point out what really happens in this case. In these industrial school cases a large number of children are had up before the police magistrates, and in London an officer of the county council advises the magistrate as to what industrial school the child ought to be sent, and the child is sent and kept there until sixteen years of age. You propose in this Bill that in certain cases that child should be sent to a home for defectives instead of to an industrial school. That is a very important change, and in future probably an officer from the county council—a medical officer—would attend and give evidence before the police magistrate. We know perfectly well that in a Police Court there are a number of cases to be dealt with and proper attention cannot be given to each individual case. There is every probability that the magistrate will agree with the medical evidence given before him. I really think that before we send a boy who has committed some small offence to a home for idiots and imbeciles, instead of sending him to an industrial school, where he would receive proper industrial training and a good school education, we ought to put in every safeguard in this Bill that is possible. This is a safeguard which is deemed to be necessary by the largest local authority in the country, the London County Council, who deal with an enormous number of industrial school cases every year, and who have put into force the Defective Schools Act more than any other authority. They have got the largest experience, and if they deem it necessary, I cannot see any reason why the right hon. Gentleman should not accept this Amendment.
§ Mr. GOLDSTONEI trust that the right hon. Gentleman will accept this Amendment. It is surely of importance that an authority to whose care these children are to be committed should, through their medical officer, have some voice in determining whether a child is suitable for sending to one of the institutions under their control, and it would be only bringing this Clause into conformity with other Clauses in the Bill. I admit quite frankly that I understood the concession had been granted in this Clause as in others, and it was admitted by the right hon. Gentleman that it was desirable in view of some public fears that had been engendered by this Bill to give, in other Clauses, the right of calling the evidence of a second medical practitioner if only to satisfy some feel- 233 ing in the public mind. I do think that if the right hon. Gentleman were to accept this Amendment it would tend to allay somewhat the fears that have been raised in certain quarters as to whether there will not be an attempt made to send children unnecessarily to institutions. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman to bring this
§ Clause into conformity with other Clauses and to accept the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman.
§ Question put, "That the word 'medical' stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 143, Noes, 37.
233| Division No. 219.] | AYES. | [2.9 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Dowd, John |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Grady, James |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Hackett, John | O'Malley, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | O'Shee, James John |
| Barton, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hazleton, Richard | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Henry, Sir Charles | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Higham, John Sharp | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Price-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Reddy, Michael |
| Brace, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Hey wood) | Joyce, Michael | Robinson, Sidney |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Keating, Matthew | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Rowlands, James |
| Clough, William | Kilbride, Denis | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | King, Joseph | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Cullinan, John | Lardner, James C. R. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Lundon, Thomas | Sheehy, David |
| Delany, William | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | McGhee, Richard | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Doris, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Duffy, William J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Tennant, Harold John |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lines., Spalding) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meagher, Michael | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | Webb, H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Millar, James Duncan | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Molloy, Michael | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Morgan, George Hay | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morrell, Philip | Wiles, Thomas |
| Field, William | Muldoon, John | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Munro, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | O'Connor, John (Kildare) | |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Doherty, Philip |
| NOES. | ||
| Adamson, William | Gibbs, George Abraham | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Gilmour, Captain John | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, Walter Raymond | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Barnston, Harry | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hills, John Waller | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hodge, John | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hogge, James Myles | Sutherland, John E. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Horner, Andrew Long | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | John, Edward Thomas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Clynes, John R. | Lewisham, Viscount | |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Goldsmith and Mr. Goldstone. |
| Denison-Pender, J. C. | Martin, Joseph | |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) |
§ Mr. McKENNA rose in his place and] claimed to move "That the Question be now put that the words of the Bill to the word "unless" in Clause (11) ['An order made under this Act that a defective be sent to an institution or placed under guardianship shall expire at the end of one year from its date, unless continued
236§ in manner hereinafter provided'] stand part of the Bill."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put, 'That those words stand part of the Bill.'"
§ The House divided: Ayes, 149; Noes, 25.
235| Division No. 220.] | AYES. | [2.17 a.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Goldstone. Frank | O'Grady, James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Griffith, Ellis Jones | O'Malley, William |
| Adamson, William | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | O'Shee, James John |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles p. (Stroud) | Hackett, John | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Parry, Thomas H. |
| Barton, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hayden, John Patrick | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Hazleton, Richard | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Henry, Sir Charles | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Higham, John Sharp | Reddy, Michael |
| Boland, John Pius | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Brace, William | John, Edward Thomas | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Roberts, George H. (Norwich) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Joyce, Michael | Rowlands, James |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Keating, Matthew | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Kelly, Edward | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kilbride, Denis | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Clough, William | King, Joseph | Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. |
| Clynes, John R. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Sheehy, David |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lardner, James C. R. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Levy, Sir Maurice | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Cullinan, John | Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert | Stewart, Gershom |
| Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Lundon, Thomas | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Lynch, A. A. | Sutherland, John E. |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Delany, William | McGhee, Richard | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Macpherson, James Ian | Tennant, Harold John |
| Dickinson, W. H. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Doris, William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Duffy, William J. | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks. Otley) | Meagher, Michael | Webb. H. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Millar, James Duncan | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Molloy, Michael | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexlord, N.) | Morgan, George Hay | Wiles, Thomas |
| Essex, Sir Richard Walter | Morell, Philip | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Muldoon, John | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Ffrench, Peter | Munro, Robert | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Field, William | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Wing, Thomas Edward |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Nolan, Joseph | |
| Fitzgibbon. John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | O'Dowd, John |
| NOES. | ||
| Baird, J. L. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Greene, W. R. | Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth) |
| Barnston, Harry | Hills, John Waller | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hodge, John | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hogge, James Myles | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Horner, Andrew Long | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Jessel, Captain H. M. | |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Booth and Mr. Martin. |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. {Honiton) | |
| Goldsmith, Frank |
Question, "That the words of the Bill to the word 'unless,' stand part of the Bill," put accordingly, and agreed to.
§ Amendment made: In Sub-section (2) after the word "mentioned" ["hereinafter mentioned"] insert the words "and 237 the means of care and supervision which would be available if the defective were discharged."—[Mr. Webb.]
§ Amendment proposed: In Sub-section (2), after the word "in," to omit the words "the interests of the defective," and to insert instead thereof the words "his interests."—[Mr. Gulland.]
§ Mr. GOLDSMITHI think this is an Amendment on which we ought to have some explanation.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThis is only a drafting Amendment.
§ Amendment put, and agreed to.
§ Further Amendment proposed: In Subsection (3), after the word "condition" ["his mental condition"], to insert the words "and the means of care and supervision which would be available if he were discharged."—[Mr. McKenna.]
§ Mr. BOOTHI do not think this is a drafting Amendment, and perhaps some explanation might be given.
§ Mr. McKENNAI am sorry I was absent from the House. I expected another Division to take place. The object of these words is to enable an authority to have regard to the means of livelihood and care which would be able to be given, in order that where the parents should look after the child, so that, in such a case, the authorities should discharge the child. I have put these Amendments down after consultation with my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme, and they are intended—I am not sure how they will be received—as a concession to his views. I hope, at ane rate, he will accept the intention as being bonâ-fide in the interests of the defectives.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODI beg to move in Sub-section (3), after the word "defective" ["interests of the defective"], to insert the word "alone."
This Amendment is, I believe, a purely drafting one if the Government's intentions are as stated. In this matter, obviously, what ought to be considered by the authorities are the interests of the defective, and nothing else, I am afraid that the hon. Member for St. Pancras and for Dumbartonshire will be the sort of people who will decide whether these people ought to be let out or not. 238 They are people who are constantly talking of the welfare of society as a whole, and particularly of the future of the race, and they cannot be expected to judge these matters from the point of view of the interests of the defective alone. I am particularly anxious that the only thing to be considered should be the interest of the defective person. If all the Members of the House are thinking of that interest let them have the Amendment in, after "defective" insert "alone" in line eleven. It will then read: "On such reconsideration the visitors shall visit the defective or summon him to attend before them and inquire into his mental condition and into all the circumstances of the case, and if it appears to them that further detention in an institution or under guardianship is no longer required in the interests of the defective alone shall order him to be discharged." Some might think that a person is a bad breeder, that some woman who goes out will have bad babies, and that the race will be injured. That is not what we want the visitors to look after. What we want them to look after is the interest of the defective alone. I move these words, and hope they will be accepted by the hon. Member for St. Pancras, because I am sure the more the public understand that we are moving in the interest of the defective, and not in the interest of eugenics, the better it will be.
§ Mr. MARTINI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. McKENNAIf the hon. Gentleman presses this, I have no objection. It is in the interests of the defective that the Bill is being passed.
§ Question, "That the word 'alone' be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODCould the right hon. Gentleman accept the next Amendment I have on the Paper, to leave out the word "fourteen" ["parent or guardian may within fourteen days after the decision of the visitors appeal to the Board"], and to insert the word "forty"? It is only to give the parents forty days' notice instead of fourteen.
§ Mr. McKENNAOh no. Withdraw it.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODVery well, I will withdraw that, and go on to the next one —after the word "visitors" ["after the decision of the visitors"], to insert the words "has been communicated to the 239 defective and his parent or guardian." I want to make it read: "Provided that if the visitors do not order his discharge the defective or his parent or guardian may within fourteen days after the decision of the visitors has been communicated to the defective and his parent or guardian appeal to the Board."
§ Mr. McKENNAI accept that.
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHWithdraw the next.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODNo, the next is rather important. I am only presenting this in the interests of the defectives. Under the Clause the report has to be made by the medical officer of the institution. Many of these institutions will be private places assisted out of the ratepayers' money, and I think it extremely undesirable that the medical officer of such an institution should have the drafting of these reports, so vital to the inmates of these institutions. It seems to me he ought to be the last person to have the drafting of them.
I, therefore, beg to move to leave out the words "the medical officer of the institution" ["shall be a special report as to the mental and bodily condition of the defective made, in the case of a person detained in an institution, by the medical officer of the institution"] and to insert instead thereof the words "a duly qualified practitioner who is not the medical officer of that institution, and who may be selected by the defective or parent or guardian if desired by them." I move that, although I am afraid the Government cannot accept it, as they are bound up with the medical officers of these institutions. But I do hope they will understand the feelings of the parents with regard to these medical officers who may desire to keep these people in the institutions. It is known that even, in the case of lunatic asylums people, who are useful to officials of the asylum are retained longer than they need be. Exactly the same thing applies to mental defectives, because they are more on the border line and so the risk to them is greater. I think, that apart from the question of expense, and it is only the expense which ties the Government down to the medical institutions, an inquiry should be made by an independent medical officer who can act on his own.
§ Mr. MARTINI beg to second the Amendment.
§ Mr. McKENNAThese are words, I am afraid, I cannot accept. The provision in the Clause is for "the medical officer of the institution," and "institution" here means art institution run by a local authority. The medical officer is a man who would know most about the defective and he could not by any possible means have any personal interest, in the pecuniary sense, in the person remaining in the institution or being discharged from the institution. He would merely be the servant of the local authority. With regard to the other case of institutions not under the local authorities I would refer the hon. Gentleman to Clause 48, paragraph (d) of the proviso to Sub-section (2) in which it is stated that "a special report under Section 11 of this Act as to the mental and bodily condition of a defective detained in a certified house should not be made by the medical officer of the house or by any medical practitioner directly or indirectly interested in the house." Therefore, where there could be a question of a person interested arising in a case of a special report of this kind we have expressly excluded the medical officer of the house. We have only left the medical officer where he must know more about the person, and only where he could have no interest have we allowed him to remain the authority to sign the report.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODUnder Clause 37 the local authority may contribute such sums upon such conditions as they think fit towards the establishment of certified institutions or contract with the managers of any certified institutions. It is in these cases that, I think, a danger would occur. As I understand it, when you contract with the managers of such institutions they do not come under the head of certified houses but of certified institutions, and, therefore, come under this Clause, and if the Home Secretary would make an Amendment in Clause 11, "the medical officer of the institution," and would make it quite clear that these institutions, as he said they were, are purely institutions run by local authorities I should be quite satisfied, but it is when these institutions are not run by the local authorities and are arranged for under Clause 37 that there would be a possibility of complaints being made and of friction arising. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could make an Amendment here or in Clause 48 includ- 241 ing approved houses and institutions of that sort.
§ Mr. McKENNAIf the hon. Gentleman would wait until we come to Clause 37 I think I shall be able to show him that he has not read the Clause correctly. His argument would be quite apposite then.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODIn that case I will withdraw my Amendment here, in the hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept my next Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendment made: After the word "detained" ["to be detained in an institution or under guardianship"] insert the words "in his own interest."—[Mr. Wedgwood.]