§ Subject to the conditions and provisions contained in Section six of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, a school board shall have, and shall be deemed since the commencement of the said Act to have had, the same powers and duties with reference to the provision of medical (including surgical and dental) treatment for a child attending a school within their district as they have with reference to the provision of sufficient and proper food or clothing or necessary personal attention under and in virtue of the said Section. In carrying out. the provisions of this Act or of Section six of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, a school board shall have power to act in combination with one or more school boards or with the secondary education committee for the district.
§ Mr. PRINGLEBefore the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. McKinnon Wood) is moved, I desire to raise one point. Will it be in order, after the right hon. Gentleman has moved his Amendment to propose another Amendment to an earlier Clause.
§ Mr. PRINGLEThat is why I have intervened. I wish to move that the Debate be adjourned.
§ Mr. PRINGLEAm I not in order in asking that the consideration of this Bill be adjourned?
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERThere is a question before the House. I called upon the Secretary for Scotland, but no doubt the right hon. Gentleman will give way if the hon. Member has a prior Amendment.
§ Mr. PRINGLEI understood it was possible to move the adjournment of the Debate. I will now move to leave out Clause 1.
§ Mr. PRINGLEMy point of order is this. On the Committee stage on the Motion that Clause 3 stand part of the Bill an agreement was reached between the Government and certain members of the Committee that Amendments should be moved on the Report stage.
§ Mr. PRINGLEClause 3. That was ten days ago. It then appeared that the Bill did not carry out the intention which was in the mind of the Committee.
§ Mr. PRINGLEThat is the matter in point.
Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKERWe have passed that stage. Only one Amendment has been handed in.' If the hon. Member wished to recommit the Bill, he should have put his Motion on the Paper.
Mr. McKINNON WOODI beg to move after the word "child" ["treatment for a child"] to insert the words "in need of such treatment."
The object of this Amendment is to make it clear that the conditions contained in the Act referred to in the earlier part. of 2374 the Clause—the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, are not to be taken as eliminating the benefit of medical treatment for certain classes of children. I think these words cover the point raised by the hon. Member and what the Government promised to meet. It is very doubtful whether it is necessary to alter the Clause, but I think these words make it perfectly plain that a school board will have power to give medical (including surgical and dental) treatment to a child in need of such treatment. I hope my hon. Friend will accept that Amendment, which is intended to meet his point, and will allow us to obtain this evening the Report stage of this Bill, which is very urgently wanted by the school boards to enable them to provide medical treatment to the children under their care.
§ Mr. PRINGLEIn my view this Amendment does not meet the situation. The Clause as it will now run with the Amendment says:—
Subject to the conditions and provisions contained in Section 6 of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, a school board shall have, and shall be deemed since the commencement of the said Act to have had, the same powers and duties with reference to the provision of medical (including surgical and dental) treatment for a child "—Then the Amendment comes in-in need of such treatment attending a school within their district as they have with reference to the provision of sufficient and proper food and clothing, or necessary personal attention under and in virtue of the said Section.Section 6 of the Act of 1908 is referred to. This Clause is expressed to be subject to the conditions and provisions of that Section. What are the conditions and provisions of that Section?When as the result of medical inspection or otherwise it is brought to the notice of a school board that a child attending a school within their district is in a filthy or verminous state, or is unable by reason of lack of food or of clothing to take full advantage of the education provided.Those conditions still remain. Unless those two conditions are fulfilled, no matter how much a child may be in need of medical attendance, it will not be entitled to it. The Amendment proposed by the Secretary for Scotland does not 2375 provide medical attendance for a child in need of medical attendance unless those conditions are fulfilled. I raised this point in Committee on the Bill. At that time the Lord Advocate admitted to me that an Amendment was necessary, and would be proposed on the Report stage. Last week he brought to me a form of words which met my case, different from that which is now proposed by the Secretary for Scotland. I accepted that form of words as the Amendment which should be inserted in the Bill. No Amendment has been placed upon the Paper. To-night, without notice, we have been asked to take up the Report stage of the Bill, and we arc asked to deal with this manuscript Amendment without being in a position to consider whether it thoroughly meets the case raised on the Committee stage. On the grounds I have put before the House, I hold that the conditions laid down in Section 6 still continue to limit the giving or medical attendance under this Bill. That being so, I hold that it does not carry out the intention of the Scottish Members in Committee. Therefore I am going to oppose the Amendment.
§ Mr. JAMES HOGGEMay I point out to the House that this Bill is the result of a legal action taken in Scotland, when the school boards attempted to treat medically the children whom they had discovered to he ill. The point which has been raised by my hon. Friend illustrates again how easily possible it will be to have a similar action raised with regard to the children who are not either verminous or hungry. Therefore it is the more necessary that this Bill should be watertight so that we shall not be subject again to a further amending Bill. I want also to associate myself with the complaint of my hon. Friend in regard to our treatment of this Bill. It is more than ten days ago since this question was raised in the Scottish Grand Committee, and we were informed that an Amendment would be put down which would meet the view which had general acceptance at that time in the Scottish Grand Committee. I attempted to move the recommittal of the Bill, and you, Sir, very properly replied that you had called upon the Secretary for Scotland. How could we know that he was to be called upon to move an Amendment? The mere fact that it was a manuscript Amendment deprived us of the opportunity of recommitting the Bill. That is scarcely a proper way to deal with the 2376 Scottish Members in a matter which is of great importance to them and their constituents.
I think we Scottish Members were entitled to see the terms of the Amendment. Someone must have overlooked what seems to me the very necessary duty of putting on the Order Paper an Amendment which was definitely promised in Committee. I hope that will have some weight with the Secretary for Scotland in not persisting in the Amendment. I would suggest that the Secretary for Scotland withdraws his Amendment and that the Government put on the Order Paper an Amendment which will cover the case in order that we may see it and further amend it if necessary. That will not take very much time because if the Government put on the Amendment Paper an Amendment in the terms which were drafted by the Lord Advocate and shown to us, we shall be prepared to let the Bill go through without any discussion. It does not mean delaying the Government's programme, but it means a very great deal to us. This is symptomatic of the kind of treatment to which we are subject from time to time. I protest strongly that in being called to sit upon the Grand Committee, and having debated this point and agreed with the Ministers in charge of the Bill that they would submit an Amendment of this kind, we should be subjected to a manuscript Amendment of which we have no notice, of which no indication was given to us in any way, and which therefore precludes us from recommitting the Bill, which I scarcely think is fair in view of the procedure of this House.
§ Mr. BARNESI desire to associate myself with my hon. Friends, and to say that in my judgment we have not been treated quite fairly in regard to this Bill. I moved an Amendment upstairs which was refused by the Secretary for Scotland as he thought the Bill fulfilled the purpose I had in view. The purpose I had in view is that the Bill should make provision not only for neglected or necessitous children, and those are the only children which can be attended to under the terms of Section 6 of the 1908 Act, which is imported into this Bill, but for children requiring medical attendance whether they are the children of poor parents or whether they are neglected or not. It does not necessarily follow that a child is neglected if it is suffering from ringworm or something of that sort. We want this Bill to 2377 make provision so that if a child is found suffering from some ailment which can be treated institutionally far better than it is possible for a working-man to have the child attended to by his own doctor the school board shall be able to treat the child institutionally, and have power to recover the money which might be agreed upon between them and the parents.
The child of a respectable and well-to-do parent might be attending school suffering from one of those complaints that can be dealt with better in an institution than in the home of the parents, and if the child was so treated the fee could be recovered afterwards. I agree with my hon. Friends that the suggestion of the Secretary for Scotland does not meet the case at all because all the conditions in Section. 6 of the 1908 Act will apply unless we make provisions otherwise in this Bill. I have tried my 'prentice hand in framing an Amendment, but I am told it would not be appropriate to move it at this particular place. I would suggest to the Secretary for Scotland to consider whether the following words could be inserted as a proviso: "and shall also have power to provide suitable medical treatment for non-necessitous children on a scale of fees, with power to recover same from parents." I suggest that would carry. out the object we have in view, and also the object which the Secretary for Scotland has in view.
Mr. McK1N NON WOODI regret that the Amendment has not been put down. My hon. Friends think that these words do not carry out the draft Amendment. The speech of the hon. Member for the Blackfriars Division (Mr. Barnes) raises an entirely different point from that urged by the hon. Member for North-West Lanarkshire (Mr. Pringle). As the Amendment has not been put down I am prepared to take the matter back.so that it may be put down. I beg to move "That the Debate be now adjourned."