HC Deb 10 July 1913 vol 55 cc661-73

The officer responsible for the printing of the Parliamentary register in each constituency shall, as soon as such register is printed, send a copy of the register to the Local Government Board, and it shall be the duty of the Local Government Board to forthwith compare all such registers, and to mark the names of all plural voters with a distinguishing mark The register so marked shall be sent on or before the thirty-first day of December in each year to the returning officer of the constituency for which it was compiled.

New Clause brought up and read a first time.


I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."

Although this Clause embraces a matter of some importance, I only propose to detain the House for a few moments while I endeavour to point out its advantages. I may say, perhaps, without offence, that while the name of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is on the back of the Bill, we have hardly seen him in the House during its discussion, and I think he might have been present when a Clause is proposed concerned with the office he represents. I advocate this Clause for these reasons: So far as I know, if the Bill is passed as it now stands, no one will really know how many effective electors there are in any one constituency at a General Election. There is another point, which is a question of expenditure. If this Clause were passed, it would enable us to limit the expenditure in proportion to the number of effective voters, and not have it swollen by sham electors. By sham electors, I mean electors who are on the register but who are not able to vote. If the Bill passes as it now stands, there must be obviously a great confusion, and there will undoubtedly be a great scramble among all election agents on all sides. So far as this Clause decreases that confusion and scrambling, I recommend it to the House. Work of this sort, which inevitably will have to be done in every constituency, should be done by some official public authority, and should not be placed, as it will be, on the backs or in the hands of private individuals.


I beg to second the Motion. The new Clause will greatly strengthen the Bill. At present the Bill provides that the presiding officer may put a question to the voter as to whether or not he has yet voted. That provision will lead to hopeless confusion, which this Clause will tend to remove, for the presiding officer will have before him a register properly marked, which will show at a glance who are the plural voters, and he will, therefore, have the material which will at once direct his attention to the fact that the man was likely to be transgressing an Act of Parliament which involves serious responsibilities and penalties. As at present drawn, the Bill contains nothing to attract the attention of anybody as to whether or not an offence has been committed. Therefore, this Clause would improve the Bill. It will not involve much trouble to the Local Government Board, because these voters will generally, or almost invariably, be found among the ownership class, consequently a comparison can easily be made and the register easily marked. It would be of value to the voter himself, because this Bill in principle simply provides that he is only to vote once, and as elections are not held all on one day, a man might be quite ignorant as to where he was registered. He might be registered in regard to ownership, and be quite ignorant of it until within a few days of the election. If he could easily ascertain that he was registered twice, he could easily make up his mind where to vote.

6.0 P.M.


The hon. Member who moved this new Clause dwelt upon the importance of an accurate knowledge of the numbers who can vote in each constituency, and he alluded to the possibility of political agents and candidates scrambling after the plural voters. I suggest to him and to the House that this difficulty will be far better overcome by the simplification of the qualification in some such way as was suggested in the Bill I introduced last year. I think that the time cannot be long deferred when all anomalies connected with qualification will disappear, and the difficulties which the hon. Member has pointed out will disappear at the same time. The proposal the hon. Member makes is, in the opinion of the Government, outside the whole idea of the Bill, and, in addition, we regard it as quite unworkable. It seems to us to be much more associated with the reform of our registration laws, and it would be really quite impossible to carry it out without a very large and wholesale reform and alteration of our existing registration laws. May I just give the House an instance. First of all, it is proposed that the official responsible for the printing of the register should send the register, when printed, in the first instance, to the Local Government Board. That, of course, need not involve great expense. The very fact that some alteration has to be subsequently effected, and certain names starred, would involve further printing and further delay, and would be inconvenient, as well as possibly somewhat expensive. The new proposal is that the Local Government Board should be called upon to distinguish between individuals who have the same name and to ascertain whether the individuals who possess the same name in different constituencies are one and the same person. In addition to that they would always have to verify an individual whose name appeared on the register not quite accurately. A name sometimes does not appear accurately printed. Sometimes an initial is left out and sometimes the individual who has the right, to vote goes by a different name from that which actually appears upon the register. All these are points which have to be ascertained.

It would be impossible for John Robinson who lives in Tynemouth to be proved to be the same John Robinson who lives, say, in Teignmouth, at the other end of the Kingdom, or that John Smith, who perhaps is on the register in Camborne, is the same John Smith who is on the register in the Cleveland Division. If I take Scotland let me take the name of Donald Lamont, who might be a voter for the University of Aberdeen, and there blight be another Donald Lamont at St. Andrews, or Sandy Macpherson with a vote at Dunbar, and another Sandy Macpherson with a vote at Dunblane. Take the case of Ireland. Is Timothy O'Brien, of Ballybunnian to be distinguished from Timothy O'Brien, of Ballina, or Patrick Murphy, of Wexford, from Patrick Murphy, of Waterford. If we come to Wales the difficulty would be still much greater. How can the staff of the Local Government Board be expected to distinguish between the John Jones at Abergavenny, and John Jones at Aberys- twith, or Robert Roberts, or Thomas Thomas, or all the other Welsh names and the unpronounceable Welsh places in which they live? Heaven help the Local Government Board staff if they are to try and make the register an accurate reflection of the plural voters in the country by merely comparing their names! There is no appeal from the Local Government Board under the Clause, and undoubtedly great injustice will be created in the event of the Local Government Board endeavouring to carry out this direction. They would have, in order to do the work properly, to increase their staff. It would be, in my judgment, a further public charge, and on that ground I should have thought the Amendment might possibly be out of order. It seems to me it will be absolutely impossible to do it without a very great increase in the staff. Hon. Members opposite are always complaining against us for increasing the public staff in order to carry out legislation, and they are making a proposal which will very largely increase the staff of the Local Government Board if this work is to be effectively done. It cannot, under the provisions of this Bill, be effectively done. It is quite unworkable in our opinion. If it was passed it would be no help to the various officers concerned. The registration officials under the provisions of this Bill can carry out their work without any such help as is suggested by this new Clause. For these reasons the Government must resist the Amendment, and I trust, after what I have said, hon. Members opposite will not think it necessary to put the House to the trouble of a Division.


The right hon. Gentleman has waxed very eloquent in showing the House what immense difficulties there would be in carrying out the terms of this new Clause, but what creates these difficulties? He said in the early part of his speech that those difficulties would be removed when some further legislation was introduced, which could not be much longer deferred. Does it not strike the right hon. Gentleman that it is better not to pass Bills of this kind which create difficulties until you are prepared at the same time to introduce Clauses to the notice of the House which will deal with the difficulties which are thus created? It would certainly be difficult to carry out the provisions of this Clause, but it simply means that by the Bill those very difficulties, or difficulties very much akin to them, are thrown upon agents and candidates. Private expenditure and private efforts, I suppose, will have to trace these voters, and to identify them, whatever their names may be. I do not know what is the standard of education at the Local Government Board, but I should not think it would be very difficult, even for the officials of the Local Government Board, to distinguish between Tynemouth in Northumberland and Teignmouth in Devonshire. If that is a specimen of the insuperable difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman brought before the House it was rather thin.


The point is that the individuals have the same name. It was only a, coincidence that I took Teignmouth. It was not necessary for my illustration that the places should have the same name, but that the individuals should have the same name.


This Amendment may not meet the difficulty altogether—I do not think it would—but the excuse for that is that it is the best which can be suggested to meet the chaos which the Bill is creating. The right hon. Gentleman says very truly that the Amendment rather deals with Redistribution—and that is why it has to be a new Clause, because it is, to a certain extent, outside the Bill—than with the question of actual voting. Why is it in order? Because the Bill, although it only actually deals directly with the question of voting, indirectly very much affects the question of Redistribution; therefore it is impossible to consider the Bill without being obliged also to consider new Clauses which will endeavour, to some extent, to remedy the confusion in the methods of voting and in the cost of elections which will be introduced by the Bill. Is not the fact that the limit of election expenses allowed to any candidate is directly proportionate to the number of voters upon the register? Are you going to let that stand? What will be the real number on the register under the Bill for the City of London? There are 30,000 voters now, and out of those you have no certainty that there will be more than two or three thousand who will vote. They have all the right to vote there now without leaving their vote anywhere else, but the real number of voters who will probably exercise the franchise in many constituencies will be very largely affected by this Bill. Why do you introduce it if it is not that? Let us put it on another ground. I believe it is merely a matter of arithmetic that over half a million voters are going to be disfranchised by the Bill. They will all have their names still upon the register and will all count in the matter of the calculation of the limit of election expenses. That appears to me to very much affect the Amendment. Is there to be no machinery to deal with that point at all? Are these 500,000 voters still to remain on the register from the point oil view of the expense entailed upon candidates, while they are to be removed from the register from the point of view of giving an effective vote? But the Government do not seem to care. They care nothing as long as they can get a certain number of votes, which are now presumably given against them—as long as they can get them all, let the incidental consequences be what they may to other people. Some Bill is going to be brought in at some future time which will put all these things right. Is that the way to legislate, to bring in a one-Clause Bill simply to meet the exigencies of the situation, a Bill which is admittedly dealing only with one small feature of the problem, which is going to make the problem more difficult, more complicated, more intricate from every single point of view, but which will simply meet the Government's necessities for the moment, both as to the time to be allowed for discussing it and as to its results when passed? When we introduce a Clause to deal to some extent with the difficulties which they are creating we are held up to ridicule as proposing something which is quite impracticable. That really does not seem to me to be the fair way of dealing with the House of Commons. We admit that this new Clause is imperfect. You point out that it is very difficult to carry it out. We are not responsible for the trouble which the Bill is going to create. You are responsible for it, and, if you do not like this Clause, take it merely as representing a difficulty which you have created, and propose some other Clause of your own which is better and which will put the trouble right.

Under this Bill the most savage penalties are going to be inflicted on every plural voter who asks for a ballot paper twice. Surely it is the bounden duty of the Government to reduce that risk to the smallest possible proportion, so that the name of every plural voter may be starred. The Clause simply means that plural voters shall be starred exactly in the same way as the names of voters who have qualifications in different wards of the same borough. That would obviously make an immense difference to the voter and to the returning officer and to the officer in charge of any polling station. He will have his list of names, and if he sees that a particular voter's name is starred as a plural voter, when the voter comes in he will have an opportunity of cautioning him and letting him know that he may only vote once. The actual results of a Bill passed in this way cannot be known to everyone, and it may have the result of frightening people so that they will not dare to vote at all. We want to minimise that risk and make the path of the plural voter as easy as possible, instead of making it as difficult as possible. The answer which has been given from the Front Bench is really no answer at all, and the only possible means by which this Amendment can be resisted, imperfect as it is, is that the Government should propose a better one themselves.

The SECRETARY of STATE for the COLONIES (Mr. Harcourt)

The hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite is under a misapprehension as to the proposals of the Bill. He told the House that under it 500,000 voters are going to be disfranchised. As a matter of fact, there is no disfranchisement at all. Not one of them is removed from the register. Every man, wherever he has a qualification, remains on the register as a potential voter and an effective voter until the last moment in any constituency where he may happen to have got his name on the register, and the intention of this Bill is to leave the elector his free choice up to the last moment. The hon. Member said it should be the desire of the House to make the path of the plural voter easy. It is our desire to make the path of the plural voter easy up to the time of a General Election, just as it is our desire to make the path of any voter as easy as possible. Really the suggestion in this Clause is the most impossible that could be put before Parliament. Just imagine the clerks at the Local Government Board comparing 650 registers in the case of every single name! Even with an army of archangels you could not really attempt to arrive at a decision as to whether Mr. Brown in one constituency is the same gentleman as the Mr. Brown in any one of the other 599 or 600 volumes. You would have to search through all the other registers until you came to the name of Mr. Brown. Again, when you came a few lines lower down to the name of Mr. Jones, you would have to search the 600 registers as before, and then, upon the information accidentally ascertained in this way, one of the clerks at the Local Government Board has to give his decision as to whether Mr. Jones is to be starred in any or all of the other registers. That interesting information is demanded from a Government office. The hon. Member says it was not found difficult to star the duplicate voters in the large towns. It is not easy in the large towns, but it is rendered possible by the fact that the register is revised by a single revising barrister. If you can get a clerk at the Local Government Board to perform for the United Kingdom what one revising barrister can perform for a large borough, you put the staff of the Local Government Board on a higher plane of brilliancy and intelligence than ever their devoted chief would claim for them. We hope that the House will not think it necessary to waste, or, I should rather say, employ, any more time in discussing' the Clause.


I agree that the Clause woul4 not at all be an easy one to work, and I am glad that I am not the only one who objects to it on that ground. If the Clause is so absolutely impossible, how did the President of the Board of Education arrive at his estimate of the number of plural voters in the United Kingdom? He must have made a calculation of some sort. He must have had some reliable facts and figures to go upon. Has he counted the Browns and the Jones's in the different parts of the United Kingdom? He must have had some ground for this estimate, and I wish he were here to explain how he arrived at it. If the Government, through one of their departments, do not make it possible to ascertain who are plural voters, somebody has got to do it. How are you going to detect plural voters? You may accuse a man of being a plural voter, but how are you to know that he is? What will happen will be that the party agents in each division will try to make out lists of the plural voters, so that you are really putting all the expense and labour of getting these lists on the backs of the different parties. I thought it was the ambition of hon. Gentlemen opposite that poor men should get to the House of Commons. By passing this Bill you are not only depriving many people of votes, but you are also imposing great expense in connection with the work of registration. Although the Clause may not be perfect, I say it is the duty of the Government to make this a workable measure, and to bring forward some Clause which will produce an authoritative list of plural voters without imposing a heavy charge upon Members of Parliament at elections. I think the point raised by my hon. Friend as to election expenses is a very important one. There, again, the Bill does not make it easier for a poor man to get into the House of Commons if you say that his opponent may spend up to the limit allowed for the total number of voters on the register. I believe the hon. Baronet (Sir F. Banbury) spends a large sum of money in trying to persuade the electors of the City of London to vote for him—quite legitimately—and, so far, he has been successful. It does not make it easier for a poor man to oppose him in the City of London if he knows that my hon. Friend may spend several hundred pounds in putting his views before the electors, while the poor man can only spend £200. Both these points are very germane in the passing of an effective Plural Voting Bill, and even if this Clause is not perfect, I think a Clause of a similar nature will have to be put in to make the Bill workable.


I think this Debate has shown some of the absolutely ridiculous results which will accrue from the passing of this Bill. I do not support the Clause with anything like enthusiasm, for I think if it is passed, it will not improve the working of the Bill. Therefore, it does not appeal to me. I see the difficulty of distinguishing between the Browns and the Jones's and the Smiths, but surely that difficulty could be got over if you forced a man to give intimation of the places in which he has a vote, or to say whether he is a plural voter or not. You must do something of that kind for this reason: If you do not give the officer in charge of the polling booth some list of the names which will help him to know whether those who ask for ballot papers are plural voters or not, this is the sort of thing that is going to happen. A question has to be put to the would-be elector under Section 2. A gentleman goes in to register his vote. Very often electors are hard of hearing, and this is the sort of conversation that will take place. The officer says: "Have you already voted?" "What?" says the voter. "Have you already voted?" shouts the gentleman in charge, and the voter replies, "That is what I have come here for." "No, no," says the officer, "have you already voted in any constituency during this General Election?" and so the shouting will go on, until, at the end of a long period the poor voter will be allowed to vote, saying "I do not know what the gentleman means." Unless you put this Clause or some similar Clause in the Bill, a great deal of time and temper will be wasted in the case of those who desire to record their votes. I do hope that some machinery will be provided by the Bill to avoid the inconveniences I have described.


I would like to offer my congratulations to the Secretary for the Colonies on the speech which he made. It is the first speech I have heard during any of the proceedings on the Bill which has attempted to meet the arguments advanced from this-side of the House. Not only is it the first speech which has attempted to meet the arguments, but it did meet them conclusively. Therefore, I take the opportunity of congratulating the right hon. Gentleman on having more or less disposed of the Clause as it stands at present. While the right hon. Gentleman was speaking, I was thinking over the course I should have to take. It is not often that speeches in this House turn votes. I was almost inclined to believe that I would form the one exception during recent years, but on thinking the matter over quietly while my hon. Friends were speaking, I came to the conclusion that I must not act hastily, and that it would be perfectly wise and proper to vote for the new Clause for this reason: Though I still think that the right hon. Gentleman has completely demolished the arguments for the Clause, he in his speech set up another obstacle which I cannot surmount. He has shown that some Clause of this sort is necessary, and yet he has not shown what would be the proper form of Clause to put in its place. He has shown that there are great failings in the Bill, and, therefore, I think that the simplest plan would be to withdraw it and bring in another Bill which will be workable when it becomes law.

Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 145; Noes, 281.

Division No. 190.] AYES. [5.43 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Mount, William Arthur
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Forster, Henry William Newdegate, F. A.
Anstruther-Gray, Major William Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Norton-Griffiths, J.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Gibbs, G. A. Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Baird, J. L. Goldsmith, Frank Paget, Almeric Hugh
Baker, Sir Randoll L. (Dorset, N.) Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Baldwin, Stanley Goulding, Edward Alfred Parkes, Ebenezer
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Grant, J. A. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington),
Barnston, Harry Greene, W. R. Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Gretton, John Perkins, Walter F.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Pretyman, Ernest George
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Guinness, Hon.W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hamersley, Alfred St. George Rawson, Colonel Richard H.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Remnant, James Farquharson
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bird, Alfred Harris, Henry Percy Rothschild, Lionel de
Blair Reginald Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Hewins, William Albert Samuel Sanders, Robert Arthur
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Sandys, G. J.
Boyton, James Hills, John Waller Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Bridgeman, William Clive Hope, Harry (Bute) Spear, Sir John Ward
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Stanier, Beville
Burgoyne, A. H. Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) Starkey, John R.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Horner, Andrew Long Staveley-Hill, Henry
Butcher, John George Houston, Robert Paterson Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Hurne-Williams, William Ellis Swift, Rigby
Campion, W. R. Hunt, Rowland Sykes, Sir Mark (Hull, Central)
Cassel, Felix Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cautley, H. S. Ingleby, Holcombe Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.,E.) Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Kerry, Earl of Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Thynne, Lord Alexander
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Lane-Fox, G. R. Touche, George Alexander
Clyde, J. Avon Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Valentia, Viscount
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Lewisham, Viscount Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) Welgall, Captain A. G.
Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Weston, Colonel J. W.
Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Wheler, Granville C. H.
Dairymple, Viscount Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Colonel A. R. White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Denison-Pender, J. C. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Denniss, E. R. B. Mackinder, H. J. Wolmer, Viscount
Dixon, C. H. Macmaster, Donald Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Duncannon, Viscount M'Calmont, Major Robert C. A. Worthington-Evans, L.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Magnus, Sir Philip Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Mason, James F. (Windsor) Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
Falle, Bertram Godlray Middlemore, John Throgmorton Yate, Colonel C. E.
Fell, Arthur Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)
Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Earl of Ronaldshay and Sir H. Samuel.
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Boland, John Pius
Addison, Dr. Christopher Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Booth, Frederick Handel
Agnew, Sir George William Barnes, George N. Bowerman, Charles W.
Alden, Percy Barton, William Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Beale, Sir William Phipson Brace, William
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Beauchamp, Sir Edward Brady, Patrick Joseph
Armitage, Robert Beck, Arthur Cecil Brocklehurst, W. B.
Arnold, Sydney Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Bryce, J. Annan
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Bentham, G. J. Burke, E. Haviland-
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Bethell, Sir J. H. Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
Chancellor, Henry George Jowett, Frederick William Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Joyce, Michael Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Clancy, John Joseph Keating, Matthew Pringle, William M. R.
Clough, William Kellaway, Frederick George Radford, G. H.
Condon, Thomas Joseph Kelly, Edward Raffan, Peter Wilson
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Raphael, Sir Herbert H.
Cotton, William Francis Kilbride, Denis Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Cowan, W. H. King, Joseph Reddy, Michael
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Crooks, William Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Crumley, Patrick Lardner, James C. R. Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Cullinan, John Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Leach, Sir Charles Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Levy, Sir Maurice Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Robinson, Sidney
Dawes, James Arthur Lundon, Thomas Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
De Forest, Baron Lyell, Charles Henry Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Delany, William Lynch, A. A. Roe, Sir Thomas
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Rowlands, James
Devlin, Joseph Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rowntree, Arnold
Dickinson, W. H. McGhee, Richard Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Dillon, John Maclean, Donald Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Donelan, Captain A. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Scanlan, Thomas
Doris, William MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Duffy, William J. Macpherson, James Ian Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) MacVeagh, Jeremiah Sheehy, David
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Shortt, Edward
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
Elverston, Sir Harold M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperay, N.) M Micking. Major Gilbert Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Manfield, Harry Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim. S.)
Essex, Sir Richard Walter Marshall, Arthur Harold Snowden, Philip
Esslemont, George Birnie Mason, David M. (Coventry) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Meagher, Michael Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Ffrench, Peter Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Field, William Meehan, Patrick J (Queen's Co., Leix) Sutherland, John E.
Fitzgibbon, John Menzies, Sir Walter Sutton, John E.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Millar, James Duncan Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson Molloy, Michael Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Molteno, Percy Alport Tennant, Harold John
Ginnell, Laurence Montagu, Hon. E. S. Thomas, J. H.
Gladstone, W. G. C. Mooney, John J. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Glanville, Harold James Morgan, George Hay Thorne, William (West Ham)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Morrell, Philip Toulmin, Sir George
Goldstone, Frank Morison, Hector Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Muldoon, John Verney, Sir Harry
Greig, Colonel J. W. Munro, Robert Wadsworth, John
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Murphy, Martin J. Walters, Sir John Tudor
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Walton, Sir Joseph
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Wardle, George J.
Hackett, John Nolan, Joseph Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Norton, Captain Cecil W. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Hancock, John George Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Nuttall, Harry Webb, H.
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) O'Doherty, Philip Whitehouse, John Howard
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry O'Donnell, Thomas Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Hayden, John Patrick O'Dowd, John Wiles, Thomas
Hazleton, Richard O'Grady, James Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Helme, Sir Norval Watson O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Malley, William Williamson, Sir Archibald
Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) O'Neill. Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Henry, Sir Charles O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) O'Shee, James John Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Higham, John Sharp O'Sullivan, Timothy Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Hodge, John Outhwaite, R. L. Wing, Thomas Edward
Hogge, James Myles Palmer, Godfrey Mark Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
Holmes, Daniel Turner Parker, James (Halifax) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) Parry, Thomas H. Young, William (Perth, East)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Hughes, Spencer Leigh Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
John, Edward Thomas Philipps, Colonel Ivor (Southampton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Pointer, Joseph
Division No. 191] AYES. [6.28 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gardner, Ernest Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Gastrell, Major W. Houghton Paget, Almeric Hugh
Anstruther-Gray, Major William Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. Parkes, Ebenezer
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Goldsmith, Frank Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Astor, Waldorf Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Peel, Lieut.-Colonel R. F.
Baird, John Lawrence Goulding, Edward Alfred Perkins, Walter Frank
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Grant, J. A. Pretyman, Ernest George
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Greene, Walter Raymond Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.) Gretton, John Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts. Wilton) Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Remnant, James Farquharson
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hall, Frederick (Dulwich) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hamilton, C. G. C. (Ches., Altrincham) Rolleston, Sir John
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Ronaldshay, Earl of
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Harris, Henry Percy Rothschild, Lionel de
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Hewins, William Albert Samuel Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Blair, Reginald Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Samuel, Samuel (Wandsworth)
Boles, Lieut.-Colonel Dennis Fortescue Hill-Wood, Samuel Sanders, Robert Arthur
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Hope, Harry (Bute) Sandys, G. J.
Boyton, James Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Horne, William E. (Surrey, Guildford) Spear, Sir John Ward
Bridgeman, William Clive Horner, A. L. Stanier, Beville
Burn, Colonel C. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Starkey, John Ralph
Butcher, John George Hume-Williams, William Ellis Staveley-Hill, Henry
Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Ingleby, Holcombe Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Campion, W. R. Jessel, Captain Herbert M. Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Cassel, Felix Kerr-Smlley, Peter Kerr Swift, Rigby
Cautley, Henry Strother Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cave, George Lane-Fox, G. R. Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Lewisham, Viscount Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Lloyd, George Ambrose (Stafford, W.) Thynne, Lord Alexander
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Lloyd, George Butler (Shrewsbury) Touche, George Alexander
Clyde, James Avon Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Valentia, Viscount
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Weston, Colonel J. W.
Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Mackinder, Halford J. Wheler, Granville C. H.
Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Macmaster, Donald White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dairymple, Viscount Magnus, Sir Philip Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Malcolm, Ian Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Denison-Pender, J. C. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Winterton, Earl
Denniss, E. R. B. Middlemore, John Throgmorton Wolmer, Viscount
Dixon, Charles Harvey Mildmay, Francis Bingham Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Duncannon, Viscount Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Worthington-Evans, L.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Falle, Bertram Godfray Mount, William Arthur Yate, Colonel C. E.
Fell, Arthur Newdegate, F. A.
Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Barnston and Mr. Hohler.
Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Forster, Henry William
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Bryce, John Annan Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Buckmaster, Stanley O. Dawes, J. A.
Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Burke, E. Haviland- De Forest, Baron
Agnew, Sir George William Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Delany, William
Alden, Percy Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Devlin, Joseph
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Byles, Sir William Pollard Dickinson, W. H.
Armitage, Robert Carr-Gomm, H. W. Dillon, John
Arnold, Sydney Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Donelan, Captain A.
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Doris, William
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Chancellor, Henry George Duffy, William J.
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Chapplie, Dr. William Allen Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley)
Barnes, George N. Clancy, John Joseph Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Barton, William Clough, William Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid)
Beale, Sir William phipson Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Elverston, Sir Harold
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Condon, Thomas Joseph Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)
Beck, Arthur Cecil Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Cotton, William Francis Essex, Sir Richard Walter
Bentham, George Jackson Cowan, William Henry Esslemont, George Birnie
Bethell, Sir J. H. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles
Boland, John Pius Crooks, William Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson
Booth, Frederick Handel Crumley, Patrick Ffrench, Peter
Bowerman, Charles W. Cullinan, John Field, William
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Fitzgibbon, John
Brace, William Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Flavin, Michael Joseph
Brady, Patrick Joseph Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Furness, Sir Stephen Wilson
Brocklehurst, William B. Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd
Glnnell, Laurence MacVeagh, Jeremiah Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Gladstone, W. G. C. McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Glanville, Harold James M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Micking, Major Gilbert Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Goldstone, Frank Manfield, Harry Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Marshall, Arthur Harold Robinson, Sidney
Greig, Colonel James William Mason, David M. (Coventry) Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Meagher, Michael Roe, Sir Thomas
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Rowlands, James
Hackett, John Meehan, Patrick J. (Queen's Co., Leix) Rowntree, Arneld
Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton) Menzies, Sir Walter Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Hancock, John George Millar, James Duncan Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Molloy, Michael Scanlan, Thomas
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Molteno, Percy Alport Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridget
Hardie, J. Keir Montagu, Hon. E. S. Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B.
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Mooney, John J. Sheehy, David
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Morgan, George Hay Sherwell, Arthur James
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Morrell, Philip Shortt, Edward
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Morison, Hector Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
Hayden, John Patrick Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Hazleton, Richard Muldoon, John Smith H. B. Lees (Northampton)
Helme, Sir Norval Watson Munro, Robert Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Murphy, Martin J. Snowden, Philip
Henry, Sir Charles Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
Higham, John Sharp Nolan, Joseph Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)
Hodge, John Norton, Captain Cecil William Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Hogge, James Myles Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Sutherland, John E.
Holmes, Daniel Turner Nuttall, Harry Sutton, John E.
Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)
Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Tennant, Harold John
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus O'Doherty, Philip Thomas, James Henry
John, Edward Thomas O'Donnell, Thomas Thorne, William (West Ham)
Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) O'Dowd, John Toulmin, Sir George
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) O'Grady, James Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Malley, William Verney, Sir Harry
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wadsworth, John
Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Walters, Sir John Tudor
Jewett, Frederick William O'Shee, James John Walton, Sir Joseph
Joyce, Michael O'Sullivan, Timothy Wardle, G. J.
Keating, Matthew Outhwaite, R. L. Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay T.
Kellaway, Frederick George Palmer, Godfrey Mark Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Kelly, Edward Parker, James (Halifax) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Parry, Thomas H. Webb, H.
Kilbride, Denis Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
King, Joseph Pearce, William (Limehouse) Whitehouse, John Howard
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Whyte, Alexander F.
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wiles, Thomas
Lardner, James C. R. Pointer, Joseph Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Williamson, Sir Archibald
Leach, Charles Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Levy, Sir Maurice Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Lewis, Rt. Hon. John Herbert Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Primrose, Hon. Neil James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Lundon, Thomas Pringle, William M. R. Wing, Thomas Edward
Lyell, Charles Henry Radford, George Heynes Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glasgow)
Lynch, A. A. Raffan, Peter Wilson Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Young, William (Perth, East)
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
McGhee, Richard Reddy, Michael
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Macpherson, James Ian Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.)