HC Deb 28 January 1913 vol 47 cc1261-77

Property which belongs to or is appropriated to the use of any ecclesiastical office or cathedral corporation in the Church in Wales, or the holder of any such office as such, except, in the case of any such property which—

  1. (a) consists of, or is the produce of, or is or has been derived from grants 1263 made by Queen Anne's Bounty out of the Royal Bounty Fund; and
  2. (b) does not consist of money arising from the sale of parsonage houses in Wales or Monmouthshire, or the securities in which any such money is for the time being invested;
such part thereof as has been derived from sources other than Welsh sources.

For the purpose of determining what property is derived from sources other than Welsh sources, Queen Anne's Bounty shall ascertain and by order declare the amount by which grants made out of the Royal Bounty Fund for the purposes of the Chuch in Wales have exceeded the sums received by them by way of first fruits and tenths in respect of ecclesiastical offices in the Church in Wales, and such part of any grant so made by them as is proportionate to such excess shall be deemed to have been derived from sources other than Welsh sources.

Mr. POLLOCK

I beg to move to leave out paragraph (b.).

We are now coming to the Schedule which deals with property which belongs to or is appropriated to the use of any ecclesiastical office or cathedral corporation in the Church in Wales which is deemed to be ecclesiastical property. I presume the Home Secretary will say that, having regard to the alteration which he has made so far in the Bill, it will be necessary to alter this Schedule in a very marked degree. Perhaps I may be allowed to call attention to the form of the Schedule, and indicate why I propose to leave out this paragraph, and also what I think it will be necessary to do to the Schedule if it is really to be an effective portion of the Bill. The property vested in Queen Anne's Bounty is to be deemed Welsh ecclesiastical property, but certain of that property is to be exempted. The Clause is drawn in a somewhat cumbrous fashion. In the opening words we have got the very widest possible definition, because ecclesiastical office, as defined in the Bill, excludes all the offices which are in the Church Discipline Act of 1840, and also "cathedral corporation in the Church in Wales, or the holder of any such office as such." According to the Interpretation Clause, the term "ecclesiastical office" means "any bishopric, ecclesiastical dignity, or preferment." I doubt whether there is any meaning in the words "appropriated to the use of any ecclesiastical office or cathedral corporation in the Church in Wales." That seems to me to be covered by the Interpretation Clause. Then there is the phrase "or the holder of any such office as such." Those words are undoubtedly covered by the Interpretation Clause. Next we have the words, "except, in the case of any such property which," and then follow paragraphs (a) and (b), and the concluding words are, "such part thereof as has been derived from sources other than Welsh sources." I suppose that means that where certain accumulations have been derived from English sources the fact that they have been appropriated in some measure to the Church in Wales is not to prevent those appropriated from English sources remaining English property, and not being handed over to the Welsh Commissioners. Then we come to the paragraphs-which more closely define that property which is not to become Welsh property. It provides that—

"except in the case of any such property which—

  1. (a) consists of, or is the produce of, or is or has been derived from grants made by Queen Anne's Bounty out of the Royal Bounty Fund; and
  2. (b) does not consist of money arising from the sale of parsonage houses in Wales or Monmouthshire, or the securities in which any such money is for the time being invested."
I have really great difficulty in finding what is the meaning of those words, and that is why I propose to leave them out in the hope that we may have some explanation. Do they mean that where there has been a sale of benefices, or in some way there has been a sale of parsonage houses, and the securities have been invested with the Commissioners, they are, so to speak, to follow those securities and to take them in the place of what is standing in the place of parsonage houses. I hope the Home Secretary will explain the meaning of that term. It is not very easy to construe either paragraph (a) or (b) without looking at the subsequent portion of the Clause. I ask the Home Secretary to give his attention to this last portion of this Schedule, because I have read and re-read it, and, save and except in a marine insurance policy, I never saw a Clause which was so difficult to find its meaning. It seems to follow the principle of marine insurance, because it introduces not a real liability or indemnity, but a proportional liability or indemnity according to the proportion the insurer insures of the whole amount, which is the subject of the risk. I can conceive no other reason for framing these words in that way, except a rooted admiration for the principles of marine insurance. I have read the words, and tried to make something of them. The concluding paragraph of the Schedule reads as follows:— For the purpose of determining what property is derived from sources other than Welsh sources, Queen Anne's Bounty shall ascertain and by order declare the amount by which grants made out of the Royal Bounty Fund for the purposes of the Church in Wales have exceeded the sums received by them by way of first fruits and tenths in respect of ecclesiastical offices in the Church in Wales, and such part of any grant so made by them as is proportionate to such excess shall be deemed to have been derived from sources other than Welsh sources. One remembers the old rule of three sum; you have got to get some proportion, but surely there is a simpler way of doing it. When you have by recent alterations already made in the Bill, got a point at which Sub-clause (a) is otiose entirely and Sub-clause (b) very difficult to construe and not very explicit, surely we might ask for a simpler Clause than the last paragraph in the Schedule and one less difficult to work out than one based on a system of proportion between two sums when ultimately found. I would urge the Home Secretary to withdraw this Schedule and make a simpler one. We want to get something more or less easily understood, and it seems to me the original framework of the Schedule is unfortunate. It is never very easy to begin with a negative sentence and afterwards have an affirmative, and you have both in this Clause. Then you have a curious method of proportion between first fruits and tenths and what has been derived from sources other than Welsh sources, which it is almost impossible to construe. Having given this criticism on the Schedule, riot in a hostile spirit, but rather with a view to learning what it means, I do ask the Home Secretary, having regard to the necessity for a very considerable alteration in the Schedule, to undertake to make a different Schedule altogether and one which might be more simply and easily understood.

Mr. McKENNA

I am sure every one reading this Schedule for the first time must concur with the arguments of the hon. and learned Gentleman. It is undoubtedly extremely difficult to construe. He will, however, upon examination—I am not sure he does not already appreciate the matter—find the Schedule is necessary and that it does carry out the required purpose. It is quite true it will hereafter, owing to the promises of the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty be quite immaterial what property is declared to be Welsh ecclesiastical property, inasmuch as whether, directly or by a subsequent gift, the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty are going to devote the whole of their properly to the purposes of the representative body. So far I am entirely with the hon. and learned Gentleman, but we do not and ought not to compel Queen Anne's Bounty to transfer by Act of Parliament what the Governors may quite legitimately hand over as a matter of gift. Consequently, we are bound in this Schedule to distinguish between the property which passes necessarily to the representative body and the property which, first of all being re-transferred to Queen Anne's Bounty, is subsequently to be handed over by the bounty to the Welsh Church. Paragraph (a) must be read in connection with the last words:— (a)consists of, or is the produce of, or is or has been derived from grants made by Queen Anne's Bounty out of the Royal Bounty Fund; and … such part thereof as has been derived from sources other than Welsh sources. We except that part of the property from the Welsh ecclesiastical property upon the ground that it is not derived from Welsh sources and should therefore be retransferred to Queen Anne's Bounty. Paragraph (b) relates to certain property which although originally derived from English sources has been devoted by Queen Anne's Bounty to the purpose of building parsonage houses. Under the Bill parsonage houses are transferred to the representative body. Parsonage houses therefore, whether they were derived from English or Welsh sources, are treated as Welsh ecclesiastical property. We hold that inasmuch as the Bill transfers all parsonage houses to the representative body, we ought not to inquire whence they were derived, whether from English or Welsh sources. Therefore-paragraph (b) is necessary in order to secure directly to the representative body the proceeds of the sale of parsonage houses, whether they were built out of English or Welsh money.

Mr. POLLOCK

If I follow the right hon. Gentleman correctly, and I hope I am right, both paragraphs (a) and (b) are cumulative. They are two conditions which the property has to fulfil. I am not quite certain. The words "such property which" may mean (a) so and so, and an additional class of property (b), or they may mean property which fulfils two conditions—namely (a) and (b). I want to be quite clear what they do mean. "Such property" may be divided into two classes, (a) or (b), or it may be "such property" which fulfils both conditions.

Mr. McKENNA

That is quite right; the hon. and learned Gentleman has appreciated the meaning. The sentence could really run without the interposition of (a) and (b). I think it would perhaps be clear if the sentence runs continuously. You do not require (a) and (b). It might read:— Such property which consists of or is the produce of…but does not consist of. … as one continuous sentence. On examination the meaning is quite clear, but whether the point is clear or not is of no material consequence, inasmuch as, whether this property is or is not declared to be Welsh ecclesiastical property, it is all to be transferred to the representative body, and errors in this part of the Bill will have no effect.

Mr. POLLOCK

What about the last paragraph?

Mr. McKENNA

There is more meaning in the last paragraph than the hon. and learned Member, unless he was aware of the history, could anticipate. The total amount of Queen Anne's Bounty, which now consists of a capital sum—that is an accumulated income over all the years—is estimated to have been derived as to two-thirds from English sources, and as to one-third from Welsh sources. It cannot be said year after year the accounts have been accurate, although in the sum total the conclusion is correct. These words in the last paragraph are therefore simply to convey the meaning that Queen Anne's Bounty shall be deemed to be as to two-thirds derived from English sources, and as to one-third from Welsh sources. It is merely a statement of the process of calculation by which that result is obtained.

Mr. CAVE

The right hon. Gentleman has carefully considered the Amendments on the Schedule, and I am sure we are very much obliged to him. I am rather encouraged to think he will reconsider this Amendment. I quite agree it is worth while distinguishing in the Schedule property which the Bounty must give up. If you look at the end, both will probably be given up, but in one case it is compulsory and in the other optional, so it is worth while making the distinction. I understand the effect of the particular paragraph to which the Amendment is directed to be this: Money in the hands of the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty derived from the sale of Welsh parsonages built out of English money shall be confiscated.

Mr. McKENNA

No; shall be treated as Welsh ecclesiastical property. The proceeds of the sale of parsonages are transferred to the representative body. Therefore, if we do not treat this as Welsh ecclesiastical property it would not necessarily be transferred to the representative body; it would go back, first of all, to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty.

Mr. CAVE

Then the effect of paragraph (b) is not to render the property liable to be confiscated?

Mr. McKENNA

No; on the contrary.

Mr. CAVE

But to bring it within the category of property which is exempted from confiscation?

Mr. McKENNA

Yes.

Mr. CAVE

And transfer it to the representative body?

Mr. McKENNA

Yes.

Mr. CAVE

If we are quite sure about that, it seems to me to meet the point; but it is an extremely cumbrous way of doing it. My hon. and learned Friend suggests that the whole Schedule might be reconsidered before Report to see if something much simpler cannot be done, especially in view of the changes made in the Bill. I am not complaining at all on behalf of Queen Anne's Bounty. I think matters affecting them have been considered, but one knows obscure Statutes lead to that undesirable thing, litigation, and possibly a good deal of difficulty, dispute, and litigation might be avoided if the whole of the Schedules were reconsidered before Report and some attempt made to put them in a much simpler form.

Mr. McKENNA

I will look into it.

Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS

I had some idea I understood this Schedule, but now I have heard the explanation of the Home Secretary it is quite clear I did not understand it in the least. Paragraph (a) and (b), so far as I can understand them, are exceptions to a rule. The Schedule defines property which is deemed to be ecclesiastical property—property now in the possession of Queen Anne's Bounty—and then it says, "except in the case of any such property which." Then come "(a)" and "(b)." As far as I could understand the Home Secretary, "(b)" is an exception drafted upon an exception "(a)" Surely the resources of the draftsmen of this Bill are not so far exhausted that we are obliged to put in first the rule, then an exception, and then an exception to the exception, making the whole thing read like a policy of marine insurance.

Mr. McKENNA

I will consider the question before the Report stage.

Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS

I hope it will be put in some form that we can understand before the Report stage, so that we may have some vague idea of what is intended.

Mr. CAVE

In which Sub-section are these words given effect to?

Mr. McKENNA

In Clause 8. We deal with the proceeds of sales and we say, that where the estate has been sold or otherwise converted— such moneys as aforesaid, or the securities in which such proceeds or moneys are for the time being vested, shall be dealt with in like manner as if they were property of that class.

Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think, that in view that possibly fresh inquiries may have to be made by the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty, and that they may have to reopen some accounts, provisions should be made that it should not be done at their expense. We moved an Amendment that the expenses should not be borne by the Commissioners, and it was resisted on the ground that the main work they would have to do would be so small. Yet it has been daily added to, and as fresh work has now been put upon them, they certainly ought to be relieved of the expense.

Mr. McKENNA

There will be no fresh work thrown upon the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty. They will transfer the whole of the property.

Mr. HUME-WILLIAMS

There may be some inquiries involving a very considerable amount of work, and I hope that that will be provided for at a later stage.

Sir D. BRYNMOR JONES

These are questions for the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to consider.

The CHAIRMAN

They do not arise upon this Amendment.

Mr. POLLOCK

May I appeal to the Home Secretary in regard to the last words in this Schedule. May I remind the right hon. Gentleman there are moments when a wayfarer has to try and wander through the Schedules without a glimmer of light to guide him. The right hon. Gentleman has no doubt given us some instruction, but there are many people who will not have such an opportunity. I understand the Home Secretary to say that the words— such part thereof as has been derived from sources other than Welsh sources. For the purpose of determining what property is derived from sources other than Welsh sources, Queen Anne's Bounty shall ascertain and by order declare the amount by which grants made out of the Royal Bounty Fund for the purposes of the Church in Wales have exceeded the sums received by them by way of first fruits and tenths in respect of ecclesiastical offices in the Church in Wales, and such part of any grant so made by them as is proportionate to such excess shall be deemed to have been derived from sources other than Welsh sources. I understand the Home Secretary to say that these words really mean two-thirds and one-third, and that somehow or other that has been ascertained. Is it very important for us to really ascertain whether it shall be five-twelfths and seven-twelfths or two-thirds and one-third? If the latter proportion had been found to be the proportion, as between English and Welsh savings under Queen Anne's Bounty, is it really necessary for us to keep in these words when the whole thing might be simplified by putting in the figures two-thirds and one-third, and thus avoid a prolonged examination and careful scrutiny of the accounts? I beg the Home Secretary to cut the words I have quoted out of the Bill and put in something simpler in their place. Why cannot the right hon. Gentleman say two-thirds and one-third?

Mr. McKENNA

We have not introduced proportions in working figures into the Bill. The whole money will go to the representative body, so that it really does not very much matter. The drafting of the Schedule is in accordance with accepted ideas.

Mr. POLLOCK

Not my ideas.

Mr. McKENNA

I have already undertaken to consider if we can bring up the Schedule in a simpler form.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

What has induced the right hon. Gentleman to have the Schedule at all? It is pretty certain the whole of the amount in Queen Anne's Bounty will go to the Church. The Welsh portion is to go and the English part may go. Is it really worth while to put the Governors of the Bounty to the trouble of making these declarations? I suggest that the simplest way out of the difficulty would be to withdraw the Schedule altogether, to consider whether it is necessary to have a Schedule at all, and, if it is, to bring a new one in an amended form on the lines suggested by my hon. and learned Friend. It seems to me that under the concession made on Clause 8 such a Schedule is really putting the Governors of the Bounty to a great deal of unnecessary trouble.

Sir D. BRYNMOR JONES

According to the evidence given before the Welsh Church Commission, the work has already been done. Sir Lewis Dibdin put in most elaborate accounts showing what was the work contemplated by the section. Nobody wants to impose unnecessary labour on the Governors of the Bounty, neither do we want a Schedule so obscure as to be difficult to work.

Mr. POLLOCK

Does Sir Lewis Dibdin give the proportions two-thirds and one-third?

Sir D. BRYNMOR JONES

The figures are embodied in the report of the Commissioners. The whole matter was brought up, I think, in 1906. Of course there may be a little trouble involved in bringing it up to the date of Disestablishment, but it should not be a troublesome task.

Mr. POLLOCK

After the explanation of the Home Secretary I do not desire to press my Amendment, but I do trust that, in mercy to mankind generally and to those interested in this Bill, he will try and produce a better Schedule.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That this be the Second Schedule of the Bill."

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

The hon. and learned Gentleman opposite said that this work had already been done, and he quoted the evidence given by Sir Lewis Dibdin before the Welsh Church Commission. I am informed that those figures are only approximate, that they were put in for the purposes of the Welsh Church Commission and have not been gone into in thorough detail. If this Bill passes, you will have to go very much more closely into the matter. I am sure I am right in saying that if this Schedule is passed you will put upon the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty a great deal of additional detailed work, and I consider it unnecessary to do that, having regard to the changes made in Clause 8. The only distinction between the property is as regards the future treatment of property derived from Welsh sources and that derived from English sources. That derived from Welsh sources will be immediately handed over to the representative body. The property derived from English sources may be so handed over by the Governors of the Bounty. There is not the slightest doubt that it will go to the representative body, and, that being so, I ask why put the Governors to the trouble of these elaborate calculations? I cannot agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that the work has been done. It has not been done with the thoroughness necessary for the purposes of this Bill. It was done sufficiently accurately to give the Commission a bird's eye view of the situation. The matter will have to be gone into afresh in much greater detail. That, at any rate, it the information placed at my disposal. Again I would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman to drop this Schedule and, if necessary, bring in another, not quite so obscure as this one, which would entail less work on the Governors of the Bounty. But the right hon. Gentleman might put in rough figures which would settle the thing once and for all, and that is the course he ought to adopt.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

I understood the Home Secretary to explain that in the case of the First Schedule he proposed to put in definite figures. Why not adopt the same course in regard to the Second Schedule? If it is possible to arrive at definite figures with the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, it surely is also possible to arrive at an agreement with the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty.

Mr. McKENNA

All these figures are known. The total capital sum is £576,000, and inasmuch as the whole of the property is going to the Welsh Church, there is no complication. I would deprecate inserting figures into the Bill at this stage. It is undesirable. But I hope to be able eventually to insert agreed figures. I hope the hon. and gallant Gentleman has not been correctly informed as to the difficulty. Throughout the Commissioners have had to deal with one principle and through one source. They have had a single principal from the first, with the result that their accounts are very easy to disentangle. I do not think hon. Members need really trouble about the work which will be given to Queen Anne's Bounty under this Schedule. I have promised to consider whether the purpose of the Schedule cannot be brought before the House on Report stage in a simpler form.

Mr. EVELYN CECIL

Is it not possible to omit the Schedule altogether?

Mr. McKENNA

You cannot omit it, because we cannot impose on Queen Anne's Bounty the duty under an Act of Parliament of transferring English money to the Welsh Church. They are empowered in the Bill to do it as a matter of gift. We have already passed that in Committee, consequently we must provide in the Schedule means by which Queen Anne's Bounty can make the gift. We cannot in the Schedule go back on what we have already done in the Bill.

Mr. EVELYN CECIL

Could you not alter the Bill, because that would simplify the matter? Every Member of the Committee is extremely hazy as to what the Schedule really means, and I am not surprised. Speaking for myself, I cannot pretend that I wholly grasp its meaning. It is something that the Home Secretary should say he will try to produce a simplified Schedule on Report. Is it not possible by altering the Clause in the Bill to get rid of the Schedule altogether?

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

I desire to point out to the Home Secretary that I do not think the omission of the Schedule would impose a duty on Queen Anne's Bounty to hand all the money over to the representative body. As the Bill stands, they have to hand over the money from Welsh sources, and, if they wish it, to hand over the money from English sources. If they do it, they would not have to make any division. The Welsh money would go anyhow, and the English money would go if they choose; therefore no Schedule is necessary. If, on the other hand, they do not choose, they can make the division without the Schedule. What is to stop them? Therefore I say the Schedule is practically useless. I cannot accept the view that if the Schedule is omitted any duty is imposed on Queen Anne's Bounty to hand over the money.

Sir D. BRYNMOR JONES

I will point out that the Schedule is necessary because of Clause 4, Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), which says:— all property vested in the Ecclesiastical Commissioners or Queen Anne's Bounty which is ascertained as hereinafter mentioned to be Welsh ecclesiastical property. Will the hon. and gallant Gentleman also look at Clause 5, Sub-section (2), which says:— Queen Anne's Bounty shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, and before the date of Disestablishment, ascertain and by order declare what property vested in them at the passing of this Act, or under the provisions hereinafter in this Section contained, is property of the class or description mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act, and all property so ascertained and declared shall be Welsh ecclesiastical property within the meaning of this Act.

Sir A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN

You can leave those particular Sub-sections out on Report. My view is that they are no longer necessary in consequence of the change made in the Bill in Clause 8.

Sir D. BRYNMOR JONES

For the purposes of the Committee stage we still must have the Schedule, in order to carry out the purposes of Clause 4 and Clause 5. What the hon. and gallant Member says is true, that if there is going to be a recasting the Second Schedule is not necessary, and the Clauses may have to be amended in that respect. I was only answering the question as to how we should deal with the matter now. It is far better, from his point of view, to leave the Second Schedule in its present form than to have the Clauses amended.

Question put, "That the Second Schedule stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 228; Noes, 114.

Division No. 562.] AYES. [7.52 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Goldstone, Frank O'Grady, James
Acland, Francis Dyke Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Adamson, William Greig, Colonel J. W. O'Malley, William
Addison, Dr. C. Griffith. Ellis J. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Alden, Percy Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) O'Shee, James John
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Outhwaite, R. L.
Arnold, Sydney Hacked, John Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Parker, James (Halifax)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Hancock, J. G. Parry, Thomas H.
Barnes, G. N. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Beale, Sir William Phipson Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Pirie, Duncan V.
Bentham. G. J. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Pointer, Joseph
Bethell, Sir J. H. Hayden, John Patrick Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Black, Arthur W. Hayward, Evan Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Boland, John Pius Hazleton, Richard Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford)
Booth, Frederick Handel Helme, Sir Norval Watson Primrose, Hon. Nell James
Bowerman, C. W, Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Pringle, William M. R.
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Henry, Sir Charles Radford, G. H.
Brace, William Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Raffan, Peter Wilson
Brady, Patrick Joseph Higham, John Sharp Reddy, M.
Brocklehurst, W. B. Hinds, John Redmond, John E. (Watertord)
Bryce, J. Annan Hobhouse. Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Burke, E. Haviland- Hodge, John Redmond. William Archer (Tyrone, E.)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hogge, James Myles Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Holmes, Daniel Turner Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Byles, Sir William Holt, Richard Durning Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Cair-Gomm, H. W. Horne, Charles Siivester (Ipswich) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Chancellor, Henry George Hudson, Walter Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen John, Edward Thomas Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Clancy, John Joseph Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) Robinson, Sidney
Clough, William Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Clynes, John R. Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Roe, Sir Thomas
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Rowlands, James
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Joyce, Michael Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Keating, Matthew Scanlan, Thomas
Cotton, William Francis Kellaway, Frederick George Sheeny, David
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Kennedy, Vincent Paul Sherwell, Arthur James
Crooks, William Kilbride, Denis Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Alisebrook
Crumley, Patrick King, J. (Somerset, North) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)
Cullinan, John Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Leach, Charles Smyth. Thomas F. (Leitrim)
Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Levy, Sir Maurice Spicer, Rt, Hon. Sir Albert
Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) Lewis, John Herbert Sutherland, J. E.
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Lundon, Thomas Taylor, John W (Durham)
Dawes, J. A. Lynch, A. A. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radclifte)
Delany, William Macdonald J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas McGhee, Richard Tennant, Harold John
Devlin, Joseph Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Thomas, James Henry
Dillon, John Macpherson, James Ian Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Donelan, Captain A. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Toulmin, Sir George
Doris, William M'Callum, Sir John M. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Duffy, William J. M'Kean, John Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Verney, Sir Harry
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) M'Micking, Major Gilbert Wadsworth, J.
Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Marks, Sir George Croydon Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Marshall, Arthur Harold Watt, Henry Anderson
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Webb, H.
Elverston, Sir Harold Meagher, Michael Wedgwood, J. C.
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Millar, James Duncan White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Essex, Sir Richard Walter Molloy, Michael White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Farrell, James Patrick Molteno, Percy Alport Whitehouse, John Howard
Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Money, L. G. Chiozza Wiles, Thomas
Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Mooney, John J. Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Ffrench, Peter Morgan, George Hay Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Field, William Morison, Hector Winfrey, Richard
Fitzglbbon, John Muldoon, John Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Munro, R. Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Gill, A. H. Nolan, Joseph Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Ginnell, Laurence O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Gladstone, W. G. C. O'Connor. John (Kildare, N.)
Glanville, H. J. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford O'Dowd, John
NOES.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Malcolm, Ian
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fleming, Varentine Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Baird, John Lawrence Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Forster, Henry William Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas
Balcarres, Lord Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Moore, William
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Goulding, Edward Alfred Mount, William Arthur
Barnston, Harry Greene, Walter Raymond Newton, Harry Kottingham
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Gretton, John Nield, Herbert
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Guinness, Hon. Ruper (Essex, S.E.) Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Beresford, Lord Charles Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) Perkins, Walter F.
Bigland, Alfred Gwynn, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Peto, Basil Edward
Bird, Alfred Hamersley, Alfred St. George Pollock, Ernest Murray
Blair, Reginald Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Pryce-Jones, Col. E,
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Harris, Henry Percy Rees, Sir J. D.
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Helmsley, Viscount Remnant, James Farquharsort
Boyton, James Henderson, Major H. (Berks) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesail)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hewins, William Albert Samuel Royds, Edmund
Bull, Sir William James Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Hoare, Sir J. G. Sanders, Robert Arthur
Butcher, John George Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy Sanderson, Lancelot
Campion, W. R. Hope, Harry (Bute) Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Spear, Sir John Ward
Cassel, Felix Home, E. (Surrey, Guildford) Stanler, Beville
Cave, George Horner, Andrew Long Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Houston, Robert Paterson Stewart, Gershom
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts., Hitchin) Hume-Williams, W. E. Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Joynson-Hicks, William Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Talbot, Lord E.
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Kimber, Sir Henry Thynne, Lord Alexander
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Touche, George Alexander
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Craik, Sir Henry Lane-Fox, G. R. Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Larmor, Sir J. Winterton, Earl
Croft, H. P. Lewisham, Viscount Wolmer, Viscount
Doughty, Sir George Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Duke, Henry Edward Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo.,Han.S.) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droltwich)
Faber, George Denison (Clapham) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Rawlinson and Major Gastrell.
Fell, Arthur Magnus, Sir Philip

Question put and agreed to.