§ 22. Mr. O'DOWDasked the right hon. Gentleman whether it is only in doubtful cases that the applications for old age pensions are submitted by the pension officers for the final decision of the Local Government Board; and, if so, can he say what local knowledge the, Board as a body possesses to enable them, in case of such doubt, to arrive at a just decision, and does the applicant ever get the benefit of the doubt?
§ Mr. BIRRELLA pension officer or any person aggrieved is authorised by the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908, to appeal to the Local Government Board against the decision of a pension committee. The Board consider all information supplied to them, whether by the claimants, the subcommittee, or the pension officer, and they take such steps as may be appropriate in each particular case to obtain any further information required. Where the evidence establishes the right of a claimant to a pension the claim is decided in his favour.
§ 23. Mr. O'DOWDasked whether, in the case of old age pension appeals, the Local Government Board invariably acts on the ex-partestatements of pension officers, ignoring altogether the, opinion of pension committees whose local knowledge as to the means of applicants should entitle their views to consideration; and, if so, whether, seeing that many of these officers are strangers possessing no knowledge of Irish life or conditions, some new regulations will be adopted for the equitable disposal of these appeals?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe reply to the first paragraph of the question is in the negative. Before determining an appeal, it is the practice of the Local Government Board to take steps to ascertain what evidence the claimant or pensioner has to offer in support of his case; and any representations made by a sub-committee are always duly considered. The point mentioned in the latter part of the question does not, therefore, arise.
§ 26. Mr. T. M. HEALYasked the right hon. Gentleman whether the Local Government Board almost invariably affirm the decision of pension officers against that, of the local committee on the question of the means of claimants to old age pensions living in small holdings; will he give a Return of the valuation of houses which the Local Government Board have decided to be worth 10s. to 13s. a week, in order to disqualify claimants who enjoy nothing but a sleeping place and diet from families living in cabins; on what ground do the Local Government Board hold that local residents on pension committees are less fitted to decide questions of value than officers temporarily stationed amongst them; could any scale be laid for the guidance of the public as to the, value of sustenance to old people living in cabins; what is the Treasury contribution for the weekly maintenance of an Irish lunatic; what is the average weekly cost of work- 593 house inmates in Ireland; and do the Local Government Board contend that the diet in asylums and workhouses is inferior to that provided by the tenants of small holdings?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe hon. Member appears to be under a misapprehension. The Local Government Board do not invariably affirm the decisions of pension officers against those of pension committees in the cases referred to, nor do they approach these cases with any bias in favour of pension officers. Each case is dealt with on its merits. The Board have no means of furnishing the Return of valuation of houses asked for as their decisions are not based on any single factor such as the valuation of the house, but generally on the whole circumstances of each case. When deciding a case that conies before them on appeal the Board do not deal with it on the report of the pension officer as against the views of the local committee, but all information available from whatever source is duly considered. It would be impossible to lay down any scale which could be of general application as the circumstance of the various cases differ so considerably. The Board's view is, however, that the value of the maintenance must bear some relation to the value of the farm. The Treasury contribute towards the maintenance of each lunatic in an Irish district asylum a sum equal to one-half the net cost of the maintenance up to a maximum of 4s. a week. The average weekly cost of a workhouse inmate is 4s. 8d. This sum, however, only represents the cost of clothing, provisions and necessaries. There is no analogy between the case of a person residing on a farm and the case of a lunatic maintained in an asylum or of an inmate of a workhouse, as the cost of maintenance in institutions is much less per head than in a family.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYWill the right hon. Gentleman not consider that 4s. a week would be a proper deduction in view of the Government contribution for lunatics; would it not be a more expensive upkeep than that of a lunatic?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI can assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that there is no question which gives me more personal concern than the consideration of these appeals. Many of them come before me personally. I am quite satisfied that it is impossible to lay down any general rule as to what it ought to be. I think the 594 House will agree that when a person, for example, has means of livelihood and has handed them over to somebody else, it is only fair, in considering the question of his means, to consider the value of the farm with which he has parted. I shall be glad to have a talk with the hon. and learned Member about it.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYHas the right hon. Gentleman any difficulty in giving us an estimate of the valuation of the houses in those cases where 10s. a week is assessed as the value?
§ Mr. BIRRELLI do not think there would be any difficulty in getting a Return of that sort, although it would take a great deal of work. It is not the only consideration, although it may be material, which the Local Government Board considers on these appeals.