§ (1) The Welsh Commissioners may, with the consent of the Treasury, and upon such terms as the Treasury may approve, borrow such sums of money as they may think expedient for carrying into effect 348 any provisions of this Act, and may, save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, give as security for the repayment of any sums so borrowed and the interest thereon, any part of the property vested in them by this Act, but shall determine as between the several parts of property so-given as security the part or parts to be 349 primarily liable for the several sums so borrowed.
§ (2) The National Debt Commissioners, if they think fit, may, out of any money in their hands, advance to the Welsh Commissioners, with such guarantee as is by this Act authorised (but not otherwise), any money which by this Act the Welsh Commissioners are authorised to borrow.
§ (3) The Treasury may, if they think fit, guarantee the payment of the principal and interest of all or any part of any money borrowed by the Welsh Commissioners.
§ (4) Any security given by the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of this Act shall be in such form, and may contain such powers of sale or otherwise, as the Treasury approve, and there shall be certified thereon, in such form and manner as the Treasury direct, any guarantee given by the Treasury.
§ (5) For giving effect to the guarantee aforesaid, the Treasury, in aid of any money applicable under this Act for payment of principal and interest for the time being accrued due in respect of any money borrowed by the Welsh Commissioners in pursuance of this Act, may cause to be issued out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof, such sums as may be necessary for payment of the said principal and interest, or of any part thereof respectively.
§ (6) If any money is at any time issued out of the Consolidated Fund in pursuance of the guarantee aforesaid, the Treasury shall cause the same to be repaid to the Consolidated Fund out of the funds in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners.
§ Mr. HOAREI beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out from the word "Act" ["provisions of this Act"] to the end of the Sub-section.
I think the Committee will see that this is a very simple point; at the same time it is a very important point which I am now raising. Under the words which I propose to leave out the Welsh Commissioners could impose mortgages or raise loans upon any property which comes into their hands. As the Committee is aware, all the property which is now vested in the Welsh Church will be transferred to them when the Bill comes into operation. They might charge property like the parsonage houses, or glebes which come from benefactions, with mortgages and with other charges, and then transfer those properties, as they have to do under the 350 provisions of the Bill, to the representative body, with those charges and obligations upon them. That would be a very serious-and unfair thing to happen, and I am not sure that it is altogether unlikely, for in the first place, I should like to know why this proviso is in the Clause at all. I think I am correct in saying, that in the Bill of 1895 there was no such proviso. I think we should therefore have some explanation as to why those lines are in the Clause at all. Secondly, my suspicions are the further increased, because we do not know who the Welsh Commissioners are going to be. If we knew who they were going to be, and if we were convinced that they were persons in whom we could place confidence then I should say that the suspicion which I feel would not be justified. As it is, since we do not know who those gentlemen will be, we have every right to feel considerable anxiety lest the Welsh Commissioners will transfer to the representative body, or may transfer to the representative body, property with charges and obligations which the representative body will have to meet. I hope, therefore, that the Chancellor of the Duchy will be able to reassure me and to convince the Committee that that is not the intention of this Clause, and, if it is so, that he will put words in the Clause which will have the effect of stating explicitly that when the Welsh Commissioners transfer property to the representative body they will not be able to-transfer it with obligations and charges upon it.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe object of the Clause is entirely in agreement with the object which has been stated by the hon. Gentleman. If he looks at the effect of his Amendment I think he will see that it goes a great deal further than the object he has in view. It would strike out the following words, which are very important words:—
"May, save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, give as security for the repayment of any sums so borrowed and the interest thereon any part of the property vested in them by this Act."
If those words were struck out, while it is true that the Welsh Commissioners might by the opening words borrow, they would be prevented from charging on any property which they held for the repayment of the sum which they so borrowed. The real intention of the hon. Member is to prevent the property which is to be transferred to the representative body being 351 encumbered on its passage between the existing state of things through the Welsh Commissioners to the representative body. I think that intention is covered entirely by the words "save as otherwise expressly provided by this Act." That phrase refers, first of all, to Clause 10, Sub-section (6), which prevents the Commissioners in any way diminishing the property to be transferred to the representative body for any cost in respect of the salaries and so forth of the Welsh Commissioners themselves. Then in Clause 16, Sub-section (4), no compensation which is payable to lay patrons is to come out of the property which is to be transferred to the representative body, and in the same way under Clause 17, none of the compensation which is to be paid to holders of freeholds is in any way to be charged so that it will diminish the property to be handed over to the representative body. I think therefore we clear out of consideration all question of current expenses and of compensation, making it quite plain that none of those charges are to be paid on the property to be transferred to the representative Church body. I think that is agreed on both sides.
On the other hand, during its passage through the Welsh Commission, some of the property belonging to the representative body might require money to be spent on it for its own advantage. I think it would not be unreasonable to permit the Welsh Commissioners to have that liberty, handing it on in its improved capacity. I do not say that will arise, but I say the possibility may arise, and I think if it does that it ought to be met. The Welsh Commissioners will be in existence for three years. During that time a case might conceivably arise in which it would be to the benefit of the representative body and the property concerned that a certain amount of money should be expended on it and raised on the security. If there is any doubt, though I do not think that there is, upon the freedom of the property so transferred to the representative body from being liable to a charge which is not strictly for its own benefit, and that will in any way diminish its value when it reaches the representative body, then I think we are all agreed words might be inserted. I do not see any necessity for it. I think the whole case is covered by the Clause as it stands, and, until a somewhat stronger case is made out for the insertion of any words, I see no necessity to 352 put them in, and I certainly could not accept the proposed deletion of these words.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSThis is a business matter, and we are much obliged for the business way in which the Chancellor of the Duchy has met the point. His suggestions, however, are not satisfactory if he listens to what we have to say to the Clause. As regards Clause 10, Sub-section (6), and Clause 16, Sub-section (4), and Clause 17, those Sub-sections and the limitations upon them as regards salaries and compensation do not meet the point we raise here at all. We quite agree that that compensation and those salaries cannot be charged against the proceeds of the property which is to go to the representative body in any way, but what this Clause proposes to do is something quite different from that—it gives the Welsh Commissioners power to borrow money on the security of all classes of property, including the property which is to be handed over to the representative body. I do not think the Chancellor of the Duchy will deny that. That is the Clause as it stands.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe Commissioners have power not only to borrow but to charge the property with the redemption of the sum so borrowed. I cannot imagine that anybody would be so unwise as to advance money upon a security which they knew would not be in the hands of the Welsh Commissioners for more than a few months.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSWhat I want to point out is that the Act as it stands allows that to be done. If it were done, the result would be that the property would go back to the representative body with this charge attaching to it. The right hon. Gentleman does not desire that. Neither party desires it. That could be secured perfectly by taking out of the class of property on which the security is to be charged that property which is to be handed back to the representative body. If the Chancellor of the Duchy will accept words to that effect, from a business point of view, that will be quite satisfactory. That is what is really intended by the Amendment which has been moved. Taking the Bill as it stands, we do not want in any way to interfere with the borrowing powers of the Welsh Commissioners. We do not want to make borrowing harder for them, and one of the elements of borrowing may be the giving of 353 a security over their property. If the right hon. Gentleman will admit the limitation that the property given as security is not to include that which is to be handed back to the representative body I think that that would be satisfactory.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI shall be perfectly willing to consider the insertion of certain words. There is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Goulding). I think that some such words as those might be accepted. I will agree, at all events, to words that will carry out the purpose which we have in view.
§ Mr. POLLOCKThe whole purpose for which the right hon. Gentleman desires this power is really secured in the first four lines of the Clause. The right hon. Gentleman puts the case where a certain amount of money ought to be spent for the preservation of property, and where it would be a good business proposition to spend such money. Therefore, says the right hon. Gentleman, let us take facilities for spending or borrowing money upon property in order that that property may be preserved. The Clause states:—
"The Welsh Commissioners may with the consent of the Treasury and upon such terms as the Treasury may approve borrow such sums of money …"
If the Commissioners were able to make out to the Treasury that what they wanted was to borrow money for the purpose of improving a particular property in their hands, and that it would be a wise expenditure of money, the Treasury would probably grant the loan. If these conditions were not fulfilled, they probably would refuse it. Therefore you have in these words a limitation on the powers of the Welsh Commissioners, but also an enabling power; because they have to go to the Treasury, and the Treasury would consider the matter from the point of view of business. Therefore, it seems to me quite unnecessary to keep in the words which my hon. Friend desires to leave out. But if the Chancellor of the Duchy will accept the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Worcester, our view will be safeguarded, while the first four lines of the Clause will safeguard also the view which the Chancellor of the Duchy has put forward.
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSI do not quite agree either with my hon. Friend or with the Chancellor of the Duchy. The right 354 hon. Gentleman says that they may want to borrow money for the purpose of improving property which is to go back to the representative body. There is no power to do that at all. It does not come within the Bill. This borrowing power is simply to borrow such sums as may be necessary to carry into effect the provisions of this Act. The Bill gives no power to the Welsh Commissioners to put a new roof on the parsonage while it is in their hands, or anything of that sort. That being so, it really is not necessary to have this provision for that purpose at all.
§ Mr. HOAREDo I understand that the Chancellor of the Duchy will, on the Report stage, insert some such Amendment as that which stands in the name of the hon. Member for Worcester?
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEYes.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Mr. CAMPIONI beg to move, at the end of Sub-section (2), to add the words,
"and to the representative body any sum they may desire to borrow for the purposes of the purchase of glebes from county councils under this Act, and shall accept for that purpose the security of the reversionary interest in the said glebes expectant on the determination of the existing interests under this Act."
This is an addition to Sub-section (2), which authorises the Debt Commissioners to advance money to the Welsh Commissioners. As originally drawn, the Bill suggested that all the glebe should go to the representative body subject to a payment by the representative body for that portion of the glebe which was judged to be ancient glebe. In the discussion on Clause 8, the Government said that they were ready to accept an Amendment providing that nothing in the Clause should Tender it obligatory for the representative body to purchase any glebe. The Under-Secretary, speaking to that Amendment, said the position would be that the representative body would have power to keep the glebe and pay for it or to hand it over as it is. As the Bill now stands it is not obligatory for the representative body to purchase that part of the glebe which is ancient glebe; but I suggest that, although it is not obligatory, in practice it will very I often be found that the only reasonable 355 and businesslike way open to the representative body will be to purchase that portion of the glebe which happens to be ancient glebe. There are many instances where the glebe consists partly of modern and partly of ancient glebe. I have in mind the parish of Brecon, where three-fourths of the glebe is modern and one-fourth ancient. Obviously it would be very inconvenient for the representative body to hand over one-fourth of the glebe and retain possession of three-fourths. They would probably be driven, as an ordinary businesslike transaction, to purchase that portion of the glebe which is ancient glebe according to the conditions laid down in Clause 8. We have been frequently told, and I recognise the sincerity of the statement, by Members on the other side, that they do not wish in any way to hamper the Disestablished Church under the new conditions, but that they wish her to be able to fulfil her obligations and carry on her work as freely as possible. That being so, I think the Government might reasonably consider this Amendment, so as to make the work of the Church in the future as easy as possible. It is suggested that we should empower the representative body to borrow money for the purchase of this glebe on the reversionary value of the existing life interest. It should be recollected that the existing incumbent retains the glebe during the period of his life. The security, if I may say so, for borrowing money is, I think, a reasonably sound one, though it is not one which would be recognised in the ordinary way of business, and there there might be some difficulty for the representative body to borrow money. But we have often been told by Members opposite that the value of the life interest which is to be left to the Church is very considerable. I submit, therefore, that they may consider that the security which the representative body will be able to offer in the shape of this reversionary interest is one that may be considered a reasonably sound security. I suggest that this is an Amendment which will go far to assist the Church in its future work, that it is a businesslike, sound, and sensible Amendment, and one which can very easily be granted by the Government.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHThe substance of this Amendment is to put the representative body in the same position as the Welsh Commissioners in regard to 356 advances by the National Debt Commissioners for the purchase of glebe. It is entirely a matter of finance. In a word or two the position can be stated that the Government takes in this matter. First of all, it is contrary to precedent for the National Debt Commissioners to lend money to a non-public body such as this. It is also contrary to precedent for the National Debt Commissioners to lend money unless there is a Consolidated Fund Guarantee by way of security. As the proposition in this Amendment falls short in these two particulars we are not in a position to accept it. I may say this, however, in answer to the difficulties which the hon. Member has put before us, that there would be no difficulty, I presume, in the Welsh Commissioners setting aside part of the purchase money and looking upon it as a mortgage in respect to this glebe.
§ 10.0 P.M.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI have taken a great interest in this Amendment because it is a difficulty which has occurred to me, and I have put down an Amendment which, when we come to the Clause, the Government may accept and which will meet this very point. The Amendment which I have put down applies to this Act the same powers which are given annually by this House to the Irish Church. There is the Irish Church Act of 1870, which annually finds its place in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act—that is to say, only a very few weeks ago we continued the very power that my hon. Friend is asking for in respect of the Welsh Church to the Irish Church. I should make this distinction: In the case of the Irish Church Act of 1870 it is the Public Works Loan Commissioners who are enabled to lend the money to the Irish Church. I quite agree that is a distinction. Our purpose, however, is the same, namely, for facilities for the advance of money to the representative body for the purpose of carrying out the changes which must take place and for which money will be required when the new body is constituted as the Welsh Church. It seems quite clear both on the question of the possible purchase of glebe, the provision of burial grounds, the provision of new sites, and so on, that it will be necessary to give facilities to the new Church body to borrow money on easy terms. Let me recall the fact, also, that after the Irish Church Act was passed in 1860 these powers of borrowing money from the Public Works Loan Commissioners were given to the Irish Church 357 representative body by this Act of 1870, and that Act, as I say, has been continued every year until the present. We desire the facilities under which money can be secured on reasonable terms from sources that can lend it to enable the difficulties of purchasing glebe to be reduced to as small dimensions as possible. I feel the weight of what the Under-Secretary has said. I have no doubt, however, if he will indicate that he will do for the Welsh Church what we do every year for the Irish Church, that my hon. Friend will be satisfied, and there will be no need to take up any more of the time on this Amendment. We do want, however, to know where we stand on this matter, and therefore we raise this point.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI am not familiar with the Act to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I am not quite sure whether that Act gives the guarantee of the Treasury to any loan made by the Public Works Lean Commissioners. I think not.
§ Mr. POLLOCKNo.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEBut I think a private person or a corporation can borrow.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI agree there is no guarantee given by the State. I do not desire to put it that way, and it is a perfectly fair point that the Chancellor of the Duchy makes. What we want here are the powers given to the Irish Church. The effect of these powers is that the Irish Church is able to borrow from the Public Works Loan Commissioners, like a great many large bodies—not necessarily public bodies—at a very reasonable price. We want the same facilities given to the Welsh Church. I am not asking for powers that have become obsolete because, as I pointed out, this Act is annually renewed and I think it was only a few weeks ago we had the Expiring Laws Continuance Act before this House and one of the Acts that was renewed was that giving facilities to the Irish Church. It is rather interesting that after something like forty years which have elapsed since the Irish Church Act was passed in 1869, these facilities are still given to the Irish Church by keeping that Act in force. The Government are taking into consideration the facilities that ought to be given to the Welsh Commissioners. The Under-Secretary used an expression, perhaps it was only a slip, when he said something about a private body borrowing money. I dare say what he meant to do was to differentiate between a private body and a public Department. Here you are 358 starting a representative body with a great many difficulties in front of it. Obviously there will be considerable and most pressing need to raise money and that body will require to raise money at as low a rate of interest as possible. We have a precedent adopted in the case of the Irish Church Act and if that precedent is followed, and if the Government will give us some assurance that they will consider the granting of these facilities to the Welsh Church, we will be satisfied; but until we are satisfied that that will be done, we must press this Amendment. My hon. Friend may not have taken the best course in his Amendment; perhaps I may have a sort of parental liking for my own Clause—I do not say that is any ground for accepting it—but, on the other hand, if that little bantling is to be slaughtered by the Government, I think we should press forward the Amendment of my hon. Friend.
Colonel WILLIAMSThe Under-Secretary for the Home Office seemed to admit that the object of the Amendment of my hon. Friend was a worthy one, although the Amendment itself is impracticable. I think probably it is for the reasons the hon. Gentleman has given, but that is all the more reason why he should enlarge the scope of the words he promised to introduce on the first paragraph of this Section to enable the Welsh Commissioners to borrow money at the request of the representative body for these purposes. It is quite evident there will be a period of time, something like three years, in which they may require such powers. During that time the representative Church body will almost certainly want to borrow money for certain purposes. Provision will want to be made for which money shall be borrowed and for money which ought to be borrowed by the representative Church body for their own purposes, and which may well be charged upon the property which you give to the representative Church body. But there is no power to borrow any money by the Welsh Commissioners except for their own purposes; nor is there any power during these three years for the representative Church body to borrow any money for their own purposes. They are not one of those privileged bodies who can borrow from the National Debt Commissioners. If the hon. Gentleman will consider in the Amendment he promised the desirability of adopting the spirit if not the form of the Amendment of the hon. Member for 359 Worcester, he might stretch a point and have regard to the fact that the Church body will want to borrow money and will have no power to do so, and that the Welsh Commissioners will have no power to borrow money on their behalf, and he might consider whether words could not be inserted so that if necessary moneys are wanted by the Church body someone shall have power to borrow that money and to help them.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSI think it would be very unsatisfactory if we were to pass from this Amendment without getting some further information from the Government as to what their position really is. I am one of those who think that the Amendment in its present form could hardly be put into an Act of Parliament, but there are two alternatives. I want to see that we are not left without cither of them. The first suggestion made by the Under-Secretary was that there might be some arrangement under which money for these glebes instead of being paid at once might be left over on mortgage so that the payment might be spread over a series of years. I think that is well worthy of consideration, but it is not in the Bill at the present time; nor am I satisfied that the Welsh Commissioners would be the right body. These glebes are going to be transferred to the county councils. The Welsh Commissioners themselves may cease to exist after a period of three years. They are a transitory body; they may be kept in power for a longer time, but so far as the Act is concerned they only come into power for a period of three years. Ultimately the persons from whom the glebes would be purchased would be the county councils. If the Government would insert some proviso either that mortgage may be allowed or that in the case of the glebes, which the representative body desire to purchase, that the payment should be spread over a series of years, as is often done in cases of this kind, that would be one way of meeting the difficulty. I want to ask the Under-Secretary whether he thinks, from the Government point of view, that an arrangement of that kind could be carried out, because if that is so, I think it would meet the difficulty so far as glebes are concerned.
My hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Pollock) has raised the point of great importance, but it goes rather wider because he suggested that although this body 360 could not go to the National Debt Com missioners, they could go to the Public Works Loan Commissioners in order to raise money. It might be necessary for the representative body, having regard to their duties and liabilities when their work comes into operation, to borrow money. The Chancellor of the Duchy said he had not in his mind the Act of 1870 continued in every year in the Expiring Laws Continuance Act, by which the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland are authorised to lend money for the execution of any work and for the purchase of any glebe. Of course, the execution of any work goes wider than the matter we are dealing with at the present moment. The Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland—
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland are a distinct and an absolutely different body from the Public Works Loan Commissioners.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSThe right hon. Gentleman is quite right. Of course, they are a different body, but the powers of dealing with money possessed by the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland is very similar to that of the Public Works Loan Commissioners in this country.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSENo, no.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSThere is very little distinction. There are, of course, points of difference; but in substance the two bodies hold the same position—the one in Ireland, the other in this country. Both have money to lend, and they are called the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland, and the Public Works Loan Commissioners in this country. I do not think there is any substantial difference. The analogous body in this country is the Public Works Loan Commissioners. All I am pointing out is that in the case of Ireland as regards this matter of the purchase of glebe you give power to borrow money from a public body, and that is sufficient for my purpose. I do not know whether what the Under-Secretary has said can be put into a business form. He said that the money can be left on mortgage or the payments spread over a series of years, and I should like him to tell us again exactly what he means. What would be a sufficient security to the representative body to enable them to carry out their option without being put to a large expenditure at a time when their funds were very much required for 361 a variety of other purposes? I am sure the Government intend that this option of purchase should not be made an impossible one. I believe they desire to make it as easy as possible for the representative body, and that could not be done unless it is placed upon the proper business basis of mortgage which the Under-Secretary has pointed out.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHWhen we stated that we were willing to give the representative body an option in regard to these glebes we did not want it to remain a dead-letter. Three proposals have been put before the Committee for securing that end. First of all, it is suggested this can be done by way of mortgage or extending the payments over a series of years. Now there is nothing in the Bill to prohibit that, and I am not sure that anything further is required in the Bill to enable it to take place. At any rate, the Government are quite prepared to consider that proposal, but the Committee will not expect me to give a conclusive answer at this stage. The next proposal is that the National Debt Commissioners should be enabled to advance this money to the representative body. On that point also it is impossible for me to say anything definite without consulting the National Debt Commissioners, and, what is of equal importance, the Treasury as well. Then there is the third course suggested by the hon. Member for Leamington (Mr. Pollock), that the Public Works Loan Commissioners should advance this money. Again, it would be impossible for me to accept that suggestion without consulting the authority concerned. I am sure the Committee would not expect me to give any definite pledge or promise at this stage that we may reach this subject again. All I can tell the Committee is that we shall give these proposals our best consideration, and without giving any definite pledge I will undertake that the Government shall consider the three courses which have been indicated to us, and if we are advised that we can adopt any of those proposals we shall announce them on the Report stage.
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSWith regard to the proposal that the money should be borrowed from the National Debt Commissioners, the Under-Secretary said he could not answer that point because he would have to consult those Commissioners, and in reference to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, he said he would have to consult that body as well. I 362 wish to know why he has not consulted those bodies before, because these proposals have been before the Government for days past. The objection taken by the Government now is that they cannot consider our suggestions without consulting the National Debt Commissioners and the Treasury. We have only a very few days left to discuss these Amendments, and we shall only have, I believe, two days on Report. There are a vast number of points to be discussed on Report, and I think the Government really might have had these consultations a week ago. They knew this Amendment was going to be proposed. Why do they come now and say, "We are very sorry we cannot give a decision because we must consult these people. They are not treating the Committee fairly. I am not blaming the hon. Gentleman personally, but the Home Secretary and his Department might perfectly well have consulted these officials and have given us a definite answer.
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHIf the hon. Gentleman wants a definite answer now. I can tell him the Treasury does object. I was not aware of it when I spoke.
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSWho is the Treasury, to bully this House. With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, for an Under-Secretary to get up and say, "I am unable to accept this Amendment be cause I have seen somebody, some clerk under the Gallery, and he tells me the Treasury objects"—
§ Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHThe hon. Gentleman is usually so moderate in his language that I am surprised to hear him use such a term as "bully" in connection with the Treasury. It appears now the Treasury announced some time ago they could not recommend the acceptance of either of these two courses. It is not a sudden decision arrived at by an arrangement with anybody under the Gallery.
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSI have no doubt the Committee will accept the statement of the hon. Gentleman, but the fact that so moderate a minded man as myself used such harsh language shows we were rather upset by the dictatorial terms of the Treasury. If the Treasury are the controlling factor in this case, then the Chancellor of the Exchequer or some representative of the Treasury ought to be here to explain the matter to the House, and not leave it to an Under-Secretary to say, "I cannot 363 discuss this Amendment because I have orders from the Treasury not to accept it." Although the hon. Gentleman may have treated the House with all courtesy, the Treasury have not done so.
§ Mr. CAMPIONAfter the statement of the Under-Secretary, and the definite pledge ho has given that the Government will very carefully reconsider this question, I beg leave—
§ Mr. JOYNSON-HICKSdrawn.
§ Mr. POLLOCKI wish to ask on behalf of some of my hon. Friends, how we stand. I understood the Under-Secretary to say there were three courses open, and he has told us the Treasury object to something. Do they object to all the courses, or is he going, as I hope he is, to plead with the Treasury to become more reasonable, and to get some authoritative decision? I hope he will say he will take the matter into further consideration, and deal more specifically with those three courses. It would really be lamentable if a mere message from the Treasury prevented the Under-Secretary from giving careful consideration to all three courses. I hope he will tell us those three courses are still open in the sense that he will do his best, not only to reconsider them himself, but to get a reconsideration of them from this high Treasury official, who seems to be floating about somewhere to create difficulty in otherwise smooth proceedings.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEThe position of the Government is this: They cannot accept the proposal to go to the National Debt Commissioners. But then it was suddenly suggested by the hon. Member in the course of his speech we should have another set of officials—
§ Mr. POLLOCKThe Clause has been on the Paper for a week.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEMy hon. Friend has promised that the Government will take the subject into consideration. But that must not be taken as a pledge that they accept the proposal of the hon. Gentleman. In the case of the Irish Church, there was a perfectly independent body over whom the Treasury had no control. We are quite prepared to consider the proposal of the hon. Gentleman.
§ Sir A. CRIPPSI hope that the Amendment will be withdrawn. I understand that the difficulty may be met by payment by instalments spread over a period of years or by mortgage. I take it that that is a matter for consideration.
§ Mr. HOBHOUSECertainly those considerations will be borne in mind.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 182.
367| Division No. 538.] | AYES. | [10.28 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Brunner, John F. L, | Devlin, Joseph |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Bryce, J. Annan | Dillon, John |
| Adamson, William | Burke, E. Haviland | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Doris, William |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Duffy, William J. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, North) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Alden, Percy | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Cawley, H. T. (Lanes., Heywood) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Clancy, John Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Clough, William | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Clynes, John R. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Essex, Sir Richard Walter |
| Baring, Sir Godlrey (Barnstaple) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Barnes, G. N. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Barton, W. | Cotton, William Francis | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |
| Beale, Sir William Phinson | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Ffrench, Peter |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Crooks, William | Field, William |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) | Crumley, Patrick | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Bentham, G. J. | Cullinan, J. | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Black, Arthur W. | Davies, David (Montgomery Co.) | Gilhooly, James |
| Boland, John Plus | Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Gill, A. H. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Davies, Timothy (Lines., Louth) | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Glanville, Harold James |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Dawes, James Arthur | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Brace, William | De Forest, Baron | Goldstone, Frank |
| Brady, P. J. | Delany, William | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Greig, Colonel J. W. |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Kean, John | Roberts, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Robertson, John M, (Tyneside) |
| Gulland, John William | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs, Spalding) | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Hackett, J. | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Hancock, John George | Martin, Joseph | Rowlands, James |
| Marcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Hardie, J. Keir | Meagher, Michael | Samuel, Rt. Hon, H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Millar, James Duncan | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Molloy, M. | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morgan, George Hay | Sheeny, David |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Morison, Hector | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Shortt, Edward |
| Wayward, Evan | Muldoon, John | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Munro, R. | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N.E.) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt, Hon. R. D. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | Snowden, Philip |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Needham, Christopher T. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nolan, Joseph | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hinds, John | Norman, Sir Henry | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Sutton, John E. |
| Hodge, John | Nuttall, Harry | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Thomas, J. H. |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Dowd, John | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Grady, James | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Illingworth, Percy H. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Malley, William | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D.Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Wadsworth, J, |
| Jones, H, Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Shee, James John | Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Rushcliffe) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wardle, George J. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Waring, Walter |
| Joyce, Michael | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Keating, Matthew | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Webb, H. |
| Kilbride, Denis | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston). |
| King, J. | Pollard, Sir George H. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S.Molton) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pringle, William M. R. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Radford, G. H. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Reddy, M. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Lundon, Thomas | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Lynch, A. A. | Rendall, Athelstan | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| McGhee, Richard | Richards, Thomas | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. G. Howard and Captain Guest. |
| HacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) | |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) | Bridgeman, W. Clive |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Burdett-Coutts, W. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Burn, Colonel C. R. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin M. | Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Butcher, J. G. |
| Baird, J. L. | Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) |
| Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) | Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Beresford, Lord C. | Campion, W, R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Bigland, Alfred | Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Bird, A. | Cassel, Felix |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith | Cator, John |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Cave, George |
| Sarnston, Harry | Boyton, James | Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Quilter, Sir William Eley C. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Randies, Sir John S. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hunt, Rowland | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Ingleby, Holcombe | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Royds, Edmund |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Kerry, Earl of | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Croft, H. P. | Keswick, Henry | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Kimber, Sir Henry | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Doughty, Sir George | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M, | Larmor, Sir J. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | Lawson, Hon. H. (T.H'mts., Mile End) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Fell, Arthur | Lee, Arthur H. | Stanler, Beville |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Lewisham, Viscount | Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Lloyd, G. A. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Locker Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Fleming, Valentine | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Swift, Rigby |
| Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Forster, Henry William | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mackinder, H. J. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Macmaster, Donald | Thompson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Magnus, Sir Philip | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Malcolm, Ian | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Goldman, C. S. | Mallaby-Deeley, Harry | Touche, George Alexander |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Grant, J. A. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Valentia, Viscount |
| Greene, W. R. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Mount, William Arthur | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Newdegate, F. A. | White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport) |
| Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Harris, Henry Percy | Nield, Herbert | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Helmsley, Viscount | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Parkes, Ebenezer | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Peel, Captain R. F. | Yate, Col. Charles Edward |
| Hill, Sir Clement L. | Perkins, Walter F. | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Hills, John Waller | Peto, Basil Edward | Younger, Sir George |
| Hill-Wood, Samuel | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | |
| Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Pollock, Ernest Murray | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Evelyn Cecil and Mr. Joynson-Hicks. |
| Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Pretyman, Ernest George | |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and and agreed to.