HC Deb 08 January 1913 vol 46 cc1279-85

  1. (1) The Transferred Sum shall be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and in such manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.
  2. (2) In the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each year by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.
  3. (3) If in any financial year the proceeds of any Irish tax imposed as an addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, exceed one-tenth of the proceeds in Ireland of that duty as levied as an Imperial tax for the same period, the amount of the excess shall not be treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the proceeds of the Irish tax, and the amount payable to the Irish Exchequer in respect of the 1280 proceeds of the Irish tax shall be reduced accordingly: Provided that—
    1. (a) For the purposes of this provision, the proceeds of any tax shall be deemed to be the proceeds as determined by the Joint Exchequer Board; and
    2. (b) The foregoing provision shall not apply in cases where the excess is solely due to the reduction of the rate of the Imperial tax.
  4. (4) When any reserved service is transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, the Transferred Sum shall be increased by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the equivalent of any saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom by reason of the transfer, and in determining that equivalent regard shall be had to the prospect of any increase or decrease in the cost of that service which may be expected to arise from causes not being matters of administration.

The sum by which the Transferred Sum is to be increased in pursuance of this provision may be fixed by the Joint Exchequer Board so as to vary during the first ten years after the transfer, but subject thereto shall be a definite sum.

Government Amendment made: In Sub-section (3), paragraph (6), to leave out the words "in cases where," and insert instead thereof the words "so far as."

Government Amendment proposed: In Sub-section (3), at end of paragraph (b), insert the following new Sub-sections:

"(4) When an Imperial tax has been varied by the Irish Parliament, the Joint Exchequer Board, in determining for the purposes of this Act the proceeds in Ireland of the Irish tax in the case of a variation by way of addition, or the amount by which the proceeds of the Imperial tax are diminished in the case of a variation by way of reduction or discontinuance, shall consider what the amount of the proceeds in Ireland of the Imperial tax would have been if the variation had not been made, and in the case of a variation by way of addition shall treat any excess over that amount as the proceeds of the Irish tax, and in the case of a variation by way of reduction or discontinuance shall treat any deficiency below that amount as the amount by which the proceeds of the Imperial tax have been diminished by reason of the reduction or discontinuance.

If in a case of variation by way of addition it is found that there is a deficiency below instead of an excess over the amount "which would have been, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, the proceeds in Ireland of the Imperial tax if the variation had not been made, the amount of that deficiency shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury.

(5) Where an independent tax is imposed by the Irish Parliament the Joint Exchequer Board shall in each year lay before the Commons House of Parliament of the United Kingdom a report as

to the yield and cost of collection of the tax, and if that House pass a Resolution declaring that the additional expense caused to the United Kingdom Exchequer by the cost of the collection of the tax is excessive compared with the yield of the tax, and that the whole or any specified part of the cost of collection of the tax should be deducted from the Transferred Sum, an amount equal to the whole or the specified part of the cost of collection shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum accordingly in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 311; Noes, 183.

Division No. 498.] AYES. [7.40 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Cullinan, John Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire)
Acland, Francis Dyke Davies, David (Montgomery) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hayden, John Patrick
Ainsworth, John Stirling Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hayward, Evan
Alden, Percy Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hazleton, Richard
Alten, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) Helme, Sir Norval Watson
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Dawes, J. A. Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Arnold, Sydney De Forest, Baron Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Delany, William Henry, Sir Charles
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Denman, Hon. R. D. Herbert, General Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Devlin, Joseph Higham, John Sharp
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Dickinson, W. H. Hinds, John
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Donelan, Captain A. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) Doris, W. Hodge, John
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Duffy, William J. Hogge, James Myles
Barton, William Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Holmes, Daniel Turner
Beale, Sir William Phipson Edwards. Sir Francis (Radnor) Holt, Richard Durning
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Hope, John Deans (Haddington)
Beck, Arthur Cecil Elverston, Sir Harold Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Esmende, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Bentham, George Jackson Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Hudson, Walter
Bethell, Sir John Henry Essex, Sir Richard Walter Hughes, Spencer Leigh
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Esslemont, George Birnie Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
Black, Arthur W. Falconer, J. John, Edward Thomas
Booth, Frederick Handel Farrell, James Patrick Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea)
Bowerman, C. W. Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Brace, William Ffrench, Peter Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
Brady, Patrick Joseph Field, William Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)
Brocklehurst. William B. Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Bryce, John Annan Fitzgibbon, John Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)
Burke, E. Haviland- Flavin, Michael Joseph Jowett, Frederick William
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Furness, Stephen W. Joyce, Michael
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Keating, Matthew
Buxton. Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Gill, Alfred Henry Kellaway. Frederick George
Byles, Sir William Pollard Ginnell, Laurence Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Gladstone, W. G. C. Kilbride, Denis
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Glanville, Harold James King, J
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
Chapple, Dr. W. A. Goldstone, Frank Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe
Clancy, John Joseph Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
Clough, William Griffith, Ellis J. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
Clynes, John R. Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) Leach, Charles
Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Levy, Sir Maurice
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Hackett, John Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hancock, John George Lundon, Thomas
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Lyell, Charles Henry
Cotton, William Francis Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Lynch, A. A.
Craig. Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hardie, J. Keir Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Crawshay - Williams, Eliot Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) McGhee, Richard
Crooks, William Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Crumley, Patrick Harvey, T. E. (Leesd, West) MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
Macpherson, James Ian O'Sullivan, Timothy Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir John Allsebrook
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Outhwaite, R. L. Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
M'Callum, Sir John M. Palmer, Godfrey Mark Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)
M'Curdy, Charles Albert Parker, James (Halifax) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)
M'Kean, John Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Snowden, Philip
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Pearce, William (Limehouse) Soames, Arthur Wellesley
M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
M'Laren, Hon. F.W.S. (Lincs., Spalding) Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
M'Micking, Major Gilbert Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Manfield, Harry Pirie, Duncan V. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Pointer, Joseph Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Marks, Sir George Croydon Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Martin, Joseph Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Tennant, Harold John
Mason, David M. (Coventry) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Thomas, James Henry
Masterman. Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford) Thome, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Meagher, Michael Pringle, William M. R. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Radlord, G. H. Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Menzies, Sir Walter Raffan, Peter Wilson Verney, Sir Harry
Middlebrook, William Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Wadsworth, John
Millar, James Duncan Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince)
Molloy, Michael Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Walters, Sir John Tudor
Molteno, Percy Alport Reddy, M. Walton. Sir Joseph
Mond, Sir Alfred M. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Money, L. G. Chiozza Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Morgan, George Hay Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Wardle, G. J.
Morrell, Philip Rendall, Athelstan Waring, Walter
Morison, Hector Richards, Thomas Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Muldoon, John Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Wason. John Cathcart (Orkney)
Munro, Robert Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Webb, H.
Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) White, J Dundas (Tradeston)
Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Whitehouse, John Howard
Neilson, Francis Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas
Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster) Robinson, Sidney Whyte, Alexander F.
Nolan, Joseph Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Wiles, Thomas
Norman, Sir Henry Roche, Augustine (Louth) Wilkie, Alexander
Norton, Captain Cecil W. Roche, John (Galway, E.) Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Roe, Sir Thomas Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Rose, Sir Charles Day Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
O'Connor, John (Kildare) Rowlands, James Williamson, Sir A.
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Rowntree, Arnold Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
O'Doherty, Philip Runciman, Rt. Hon. W. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs.)
O'Donnell, Thomas Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
O'Dowd, John Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
O'Grady, James Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Scanlan, Thomas Young, William (Perth, East)
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Yoxall, Sir James Henry
O'Malley, William Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh. S.) Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel J. E. B. TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Sheehy, David Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
O'Shee, James John Sherwell, Arthur James
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Burn, Colonel C. R. Duke, Henry Edward
Aitken, Sir William Max Butcher, John George Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.
Amery, L C. M. S. Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Faber, George D. (Clapham)
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Falle, Bertram Godfray
Ashley, W. W. Campion, W. R. Fell, Arthur
Astor, Waldorf Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey
Baird, John Lawrence Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Cassel, Felix Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue
Balcarres, Lord Castlereagh, Viscount Fletcher, John Samuel
Baldwin, Stanley Cator, John Forster, Henry William
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cave, George Gardner, Ernest
Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gastrell, Major W. Houghton
Bamston, Harry Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) Gibbs, George Abraham
Barrie, H. T. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Gilmour, Captain J.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Glazebrook, Captain Philip K.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Chambers, James Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Goulding, Edward Alfred
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Cooper, Richard Ashmole Grant, James Augustus
Bigland, Alfred Cory, Sir Clifford John Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex. S.E.)
Bird, Alfred Courthope, George Loyd Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)
Blair, Reginald Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Haddock George Bahr
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Craik, Sir Henry Hall, Fred (Dulwich)
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninlan Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)
Boyton, James Dalrymple, Viscount Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence
Brassey. H. Leonard Campbell Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Harris, Henry Percy
Bridgeman, William Clive Denniss, E. R. B. Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Bull, Sir William James Doughty, Sir George Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)
Burdett-Coutts, William Du Cros, Arthur Philip Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)
Hewins, William Albert Samuel Malcolm, Ian Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Hill, Sir Clement L. Meysey-Thompson, E. Sandys, G. J.
Hills, John Waller Middlemore, John Throgmorton Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Hill-Wood, Samuel Mildmay, Francis Bingham Spear, Sir John Ward
Hope, Harry (Bute) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Stanier, Beville
Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Moore, William Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk)
Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Morrison-Bell E. F. (Ashburton) Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Morrison-Bell. Major A. C. (Honlton) Starkey, John Ralph
Horner, Andrew Long Mount, William Arthur Staveley-Hill, Henry
Houston, Robert Paterson Newman, John R. P. Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Hunter, Sir Charles Redk. Newton, Harry Kottingham Stewart, Gershom
Ingleby, Holcombe Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Jessel, Captain Herbert M. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Kerry, Earl of Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Kimber, Sir Henry Parkes, Ebenezer Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Peel, Capt. R. F. Touche, George Alexander
Larmor, Sir J. Peto, Basil Edward Tryon, Captain George Clement
Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Pollock, Ernest Murray Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Wheler, Granville C. H.
Lewisham, Viscount Randies, Sir John S. Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Lloyd, George Ambrose Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Wills, Sir Gilbert
Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Rees, Sir J. D. Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E.R.)
Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Remnant, James Faruharson Worthington-Evans, L.
Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Lowe, Sir F. W. (Edgbaston) Rolleston, Sir John Yate. Col. C. E.
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) Royds. Edmund Younger, Sir George
MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)
Mackinder, Halford J. Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Colonel
M'Neil, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Salter, Arthur Cravell Rawson and Mr. M. Barlow.