HC Deb 12 February 1913 vol 48 cc1140-2

This Act shall not apply to Ireland.

Mr. HUDSON

I beg to move," That the Clause be read a second time."

I regret that as yet the Irish railway companies have failed to fulfil their obliga- tions in accordance with the finding of the Royal Commission, 1911. I would much rather not move this Clause and see the railway companies desirous of coming in to fulfil the duty which really devolves upon them as parties to that Commission. It would be much more pleasing to see the Irish railway companies having whatever opportunities there are under this Bill of a fair and adequate share of the benefits, provided, of course, that they complied with its provisions. But in the circumstances, unless there is some assurance that can be given by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, that these companies can at least be persuaded to fulfil their duty, I do not think they should come in. They are neglecting their part of the bargain, as long as they do not comply with the finding of the Royal Commission and adopt the conciliation scheme. It is no excuse for them to say that they are working the scheme of 6th November, 1907. Indeed, they have never worked that scheme fairly and honestly with the men. There has been a series of complaints ever since there was an attempt to set up either sectional boards or a central board under that scheme. Unless there is some assurance from the President of the Board of Trade, I think this House at this stage, would be doing only what is fair and just if they went to the extent of excluding Ireland from the scope of this Bill.

Mr. BUXTON

The position about the Irish railways is that when the settlement took place in August, 1911, these railways at that time had no opportunity of being consulted. They subsequently declined to come in under the agreement that was come to. They therefore are not parties to that agreement, and have no claim under this Bill to the consideration which was given to the other railway companies. I very much regret that they have stood out of the scheme. I think it would have been better if they had come in like the other railway companies. I thought, however, that it was fair to include them in the Bill as introduced, for I was pretty certain that an Amendment would be moved to exclude Ireland from its operation. The Irish railways were approached on the matter and were informed that, so far as I was concerned, I should be unable to press the House of Commons to include them in the Bill if they seriously opposed such inclusion. I was informed that they preferred to stand out of the Bill. That is the position so far as I am concerned. This Bill as it stands includes all the railways in the United Kingdom. If my hon. Friend takes the responsibility on himself of moving the exclusion of the Irish railways I cannot resist him. I have no ground on which I can resist him. The Bill cannot be held to apply to those who did not come into the scheme. I will not say, however, whether it is wise to leave them out of the scheme, the only object of which is to induce the railway companies to give better conditions to their men. Therefore, if they are left out, so far as that is effective in any other railways, it will cease to be effective in regard to the Irish railways. That is the only statement I wish to make to the Committee. If my hon. Friend presses the Amendment I cannot refuse it.

Mr. CLANCY

As the representative of probably the largest railway works in Ireland, I desire to say that I have heard with satisfaction the statement of the right hon. Gentleman to the effect that he will accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Newcastle. The only argument for the Bill that I have heard is a rumour that the railway companies are in favour of it. But there is no case at all for including the Irish railways. They have been the most stiff-backed and stiff-necked companies during the whole matter; they make no sort of concession, unless under force, and under pressure of some physical force, and amongst the very worst of the lot is the very largest, the Great Southern and Western Railway. I am very glad the right hon. Gentleman has accepted the Amendment.

Question, "That the proposed new Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.