§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £38,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1913, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of Agriculture and other Industries and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and of the services administered by that Department, included sundry Grants-in-Aid."
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI wish to ask a few questions of the right hon. Gentleman—
§ Mr. RUNCIMANOn a point of Order. Was it not understood, Sir, when you from the Chair allowed a discussion on the Irish side of the question which has been the subject of debate this afternoon, as well as the English side, and when you put the Question from the Chair, that it was to cover the Irish vote as well as the English vote; and was it not part of the understanding arrived at the other night, on which you allowed that discussion, that a discussion on the Irish vote now would be breaking that understanding, and by that means giving us a double discussion on the one subject?
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI have never broken any understanding in my life, and the suggestion is—
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI was addressing you. I am sorry that anybody else heard me. May I ask by whom the alleged understanding was made, whether those who were not parties to it are bound by it, and whether you, Sir, are the custodian of these matters, or whether your duty is not of a different kind?
The CHAIRMANThe position exactly is this: I was asked by hon. Members in many quarters whether it was possible to allow the discussion on the English Vote to go beyond what are the usual rules of order, and I understood from what was told to me from many different quarters of the House, that it would be difficult for the discussion to be useful, as useful as it might be, if I adhered to the usual practice of the Chair, in preventing any matters relating to the Irish Department from being raised on the English Vote. I saw that point, and took that view. It was one of those understandings which I think the House usually observes, especially when the Chair allows a latitude which is. 449 unusual, that the second Vote in that case should go through without Debate. For instance, the very first speech this afternoon, when the hon. Member moved the reduction, could not have been delivered, as it was, if I had adhered to the usual rule. Certainly I could not allow the Vice-President of the Irish Department to reply on the other Vote, and that would of course apply to at least one half of the other speeches delivered. It is not, I agree, with the hon. and learned Member, exactly a point of order, but it is a point on which, at the request of the Committee generally, I have departed from the usual practice for hon. Members' convenience. That is all I can say in reply to the hon. Member, and it is one of those cases where such an understanding is observed.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYWas it part of the understanding that you should grant the Closure?
The CHAIRMANI do not think the bon. and learned Member is entitled to criticise my action, having regard to the circumstances of the case, in carrying out the duties imposed upon me.
§ Mr. MAURICE HEALYMay I ask whether an arrangement of the kind stated is not usually publicly made, or if it is not publicly made, whether it can be communicated to the parties intended to be bound by it? I also wish to ask whether it is not the case that in the Debate to-day there was no statement of any kind as to the lines upon which the Debate was to be conducted, and whether persons who had not heard of the arrangement, and to whom it had not been communicated, are to be bound by it.
The CHAIRMANI think the course taken to-day was sufficiently indicated to hon. Members who are acquainted with the practice of the House. I have said that the very first speech made to-day indicated the breadth which I was prepared to allow, and which was quite an unusual one. First of all it was on the first of the Supplementary Estimates. Consequently on the Vote dealing with England and not with Ireland, and then, later, the fact that the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) made a long speech explaining his action in Ireland, and the whole course of the Debate, were sufficient to indicate to any hon. Member what was the actual nature of the understanding. I certainly did my best, not only to-day, but 450 two or three days ago, to let it be known that I intended that to be done.
§ Mr. T. M. HEALYI never heard of this; but rather than that any reproach should be brought against an Irish Member of having broken it, I will yield to the ruling of the Chair. I must, however, make this complaint, that if any such arrangement was proposed we were entirely excluded from it, and it is part of the system of the Government Whips to exclude us from the Committees and exclude us from everything they possibly can; and now, when the inconvenience is felt, an appeal is made by you and to the traditions that we have always honourably observed. In view of those traditions and of your ruling, I will not further discuss the matter.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.