CLAUSE 16.—(Power of Pilotage Authorities to Make Bye-laws.) (Hansard, 5 February 1913)

HC Deb 05 February 1913 vol 47 cc2363-71 2363

§ (1) A pilotage authority may by bye-laws made under this Act—

(a) determine the qualification in respect of age, physical fitness, time of service, local knowledge, skill, character, and otherwise to be required from persons applying to be licensed by them as pilots, provide for the examination of such persons, and fix the term for which a licence is to be in force, and the conditions under which a licence may be renewed; and
(b) fix the limit (if any) on the number of pilots to be licensed, and provide for the method in which and the conditions under which the list of pilots is to be filled up; and
(c) provide generally for the good government of pilots licensed by the authority, and of apprentices, and in particular for ensuring their good conduct and constant attendance to and effectual performance of their duties, whether at sea or on shore; and
(d) determine the system to be adopted with respect to the supply and employment of pilots, and provide, so far as necessary, for the approval, licensing, and working of pilot boats in the district, and for the establishment and regulation of pilot boat companies; and
(e) provide for the punishment of any breach of any bye-laws made by them for the good government of pilots or apprentices by the infliction of fines not exceeding twenty pounds (to be recoverable as fines are recoverable under the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1907), without perjudice to their powers under this Act to revoke or suspend the licence in the case of any such breach of bye-law; and
(f) fix for the district the rates of payments to be made in respect of the services of a licensed pilot (in this Act referred to as pilotage dues), define the circumstances and conditions under which pilotage dues may be payable on different scales; and
(g) if and so far as it appears to the authority to be generally desired by the pilots, provide for the collection and distribution of pilotage dues, or for the pooling of pilotage dues earned by the licensed pilots or by any class of pilots in the district; and
(h) provide for a deduction being made from any sums received by pilots of any sums required for meeting the administrative expenses of the authority, or any contributions required for any fund established for the payment of pensions or other benefits to pilots, their widows or children (in this Act referred to as a pilots' benefit fund); and
(i) provide, if and so far as it appears to the authority to be generally desired by the pilots, for bonds being given by pilots for the purpose of the provisions of this Act limiting pilots' liability; and
(j) establish, either alone or in conjunction with any other pilotage authority, pilots' benefit funds, and provide for the direct payment to that fund of any contributions by pilots towards the fund, or of any part of the ordinary receipts of the pilotage authority, and also for the administration of any such fund and for the conditions of participation in any such fund; and
(k) provide for the method of conducting the examination of masters and mates applying for pilotage certificates; and
(l)prohibit the grant of pilotage certificates to masters or mates who do not hold at least a mate's certificate of competency recognised under Part II. of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894; and
(m) provide that a pilotage certificate shall not be renewed without re-examination unless the master or mate has made not less than a specified number of visits to the port as master or mate of any ship in respect of which the certificate is granted; and
(n) if the pilotage authority are an authority authorised to grant deep sea certificates by virtue of a Pilotage Order made with reference to that authority, provide for the grant of deep sea certificates; and
(o) apply any bye-laws made under this section for the good government of pilots and the punishment of any breach of any such bye-law, with any necessary modifications, to masters and mates holding pilotage certificates; and
(p) require the owners of ships, whose masters and mates hold pilotage certificates, to contribute towards the pilot fund or account of the pilotage district, and require the holders of such certificates to make a periodical return to them of the pilotage services rendered by them; provided that the contribution so required from an owner shall not exceed such proportion of the pilotage dues which would have been payable in respect of the ship if the master or mate had not held a pilotage certificate, as may be fixed by the Board of Trade.
(q) provide for any matter for which provision is to be made or may be made under this Act by bye-law.

§ (2) A bye-law shall not take effect unless it has been submitted to the Board of Trade and confirmed by them with or without modifications.

§ (3) Notice of any bye-law proposed to be submitted for confirmation under this section shall, before it is so submitted, be published in such manner as the Board of Trade direct.

§ Amendment made: In paragraph (f) after the word "dues" ["referred to as pilotage dues"] insert the word "and."—[Mr. Buxton.]

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member (Mr. Peto)—after the word "dues" in paragraph (f) to insert the words "and the rates of payments to be made to masters or mates possessing pilotage certificates and acting as pilots under the provisions of section twenty-two of this Act, and"—is not in order as it is outside the scope of the Bill.

§ Mr. PETO
On a point of Order. May I point out the Bill is one for consolidating and amending the law relating to pilotage and in Clause 16 powers are conferred upon the pilotage authorities to make bye-laws, for the district rates of payment and for the licensing of pilots, and in Clause 22 there are provisions for the examination of masters and mates and the certificates they shall receive from the pilotage authority to act as pilots. The Bill is for consolidating and amending the law relating to pilotage and should take into consideration all relevant subjects. It provides for the payment of fees to persons acting as pilots and in another section it provides that masters and mates in certain circumstances shall have granted to them pilots' certificates. I am speaking on behalf of a body of 50,000 men who have no votes and this is the one opportunity they have of having their grievances heard. Therefore I ask that in the exceptional circumstances you should allow a discussion on this point as this is the only occasion on which the question is likely to be discussed at all.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The hon. Member ought not to make his speech upon a point of Order.

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§ Mr. NEWTON
On the point of Order. May I remind you, Sir, that Clause 2 provides that an attempt shall be made, as far as practical, to secure uniformity. I suggest that this Amendment more than anything else would perhaps secure that uniformity. If you think that the Amendment would cast a burden upon the shipowners I would point out other Sub-sections that cast a burden on the shipowners, and an Amendment ought not to be ruled out for that reason.

Mr. BUXTON
On the question of uniformity this Clause deals simply with a matter of administration. This Amendment, if carried, would throw upon the pilotage authority the necessity of fixing the rates of payment of masters and mates possessing pilotage certificates. There is no machinery under the Bill to enable that to be done. Even if this Amendment were carried it would be quite impossible for the pilotage authority to deal with the question at all and therefore I think it is outside the scope of the Bill.

§ Mr. BUTCHER
It has been suggested that this provision might be put into the Merchant Shipping Bill, but that is no reason why it should not be put into this Bill. There is already a good deal of overlapping in both Bills. The Marine Shipping Bill deals with compulsory pilotage, which is one of the subjects dealt with by this Bill. The title of the Bill sets out its object as a measure "to consolidate and amend the law relating to pilotage." Clause 11, which deals with the obligations where pilotage is compulsory, provides that a ship must be either under the pilotage of a licensed pilot of the district or under the pilotage of a master or mate possessing a pilotage certificate. In a later Clause, you provide for payment to a licensed pilot, and surely it would now be in order to provide for payment to a certificated master or mate. I ask you, Mr. Whitley, to rule that this comes within the words of the title and deals with matters which are partially dealt with by this Bill already.

Sir GILBERT PARKER
May I submit to you, Mr. Whitley, that the position of masters and mates and pilots are entirely different. A pilot is engaged to pilot a ship but masters and mates are engaged for the duty of navigating vessels on the high seas. They are engaged by shipowners for duties exclusive of pilots and therefore the position is not on all fours.

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Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
The hon. Member for Gravesend has correctly interpreted my view on this point. I took a great deal of trouble to go into this question, and nothing that has been said by hon. Members has shaken my view on this point.

§ Mr. HOLT
I beg to move in Subsection (f), after the word "scales" to insert the words "and provide for the collection and distribution of pilotage dues, and." In the Bill it is provided that the pilots may place an absolute veto on the method of collecting the dues. That is quite an impossible state of affairs and one which you cannot expect the various pilotage authorities and those engaged in commerce to accept. We have a proper system of collecting these dues through the same authority as collects other dues and it would be a great inconvenience if the pilotage dues had to be collected by any authority not of recognised standing.

§ Mr. WALTER REA
I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. BUXTON
This matter was discussed in the Committee and certain objections were then raised. I think however that I have obtained satisfactory securities and I understand that there is no objection to this Amendment.

Sir G. PARKER
It was, I think, my Amendment upstairs which stipulated that distribution and pooling should be with the assent of the pilots in any district. That was done largely from my experience in the River Thames. It seemed to me to be necessary that the collection, distribution and pooling should be within the veto, or at any rate within the will of the pilots who earn the money and who should have a voice in the matter, but the President of the Board of Trade has given an assurance that the present conditions will not be altered in the Thames where the pilots employ on their own terms their own agents who effectively carry out the work, and on the condition that assurance is given definitely—

Mr. BUXTON
In writing.

Sir G. PARKER
By Trinity House. I am quite willing to accept the Amendment.

§ Mr. JOYCE
I agree with regard to the Thames, but I also brought under the notice of the President of the Board of Trade several other large ports—there is 2369 one at least, and I think there are others—in which the work is effectively done by an agent of the pilots and where the pilot authorities would have no objection whatever that it should continue to be so done. I hope the President of the Board of Trade will not interfere with that which is effectively done at present.

Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER
I think the last Amendment disposes of the next on the Paper — to leave out paragraph (g) and to insert instead thereof the words "provide for the pooling of pilotage dues earned by the licensed pilots or by any class of pilots, and (if and so far as it appears to the authority to be generally desired by the pilots) provide for the collection and distribution of pilotage dues; and."

Sir HOWELL DAVIES
It is not quite covered, but I do not wish to press it if the President of the Board of Trade or the pilots have any strong feeling against it. The port of Bristol are anxious that the pilots should not have the right to prevent pooling where it is necessary in large ports, and I do not know that it would be possible to get a pooling system if the pilots were themselves absolutely to stand out unless it is inserted in this Clause now. I should therefore like to move my Amendment formally in order to hear what the Board of Trade have to say about it.

§ Amendment not seconded.

§ Government Amendment made: In paragraph (g) after the word "pilots" I" desired by the pilots"] to insert the word "concerned."—[Mr. Buxton.]

§ Mr. HOLT
I beg to move in paragraph (g) to leave out the words "for the collection and distribution of pilotage dues, or." This is purely consequential on the previous Amendment.

§ Amendment agreed to.

§ Mr. LESLIE SCOTT
I beg to move in paragraph (k) after the word "certificates," to insert the words "so as to obtain a proper standard of efficiency."
This is to meet a point which ought to be provided for, and is raised in the Amendments on Clause 22, which says that "A 2370 pilotage authority may grant a certificate (in this Act referred to as a pilotage certificate) to any person who is bond fide the master or mate of any ship if that person applies for such a certificate, and if, after an examination conducted substantially in the same manner as the examination of persons applying to be licensed as pilots for their district, they are satisfied that, having regard to his skill, experience, and local knowledge, he is capable of piloting the ship of which he is master or mate within their district." On that Clause the question is raised as to the character of the examination which ought to be required for certificates for masters and mates. The Mercantile Marine Association of this country take the view, and I think properly, that for masters and mates it is not necessary to have exactly the same examination as for pilots. Masters and mates know navigation. When a pilot comes up for examination, of course it is right in the first instance that he should pass an examination in seamanship. It is not necessary for masters and mates, and therefore the examination has to be different. But it is necessary—and I am certain the Mercantile Marine Association would concede it—that the examination should be one which would secure an adequate standard of efficiency. I therefore propose this Amendment. It will facilitate consequential amendments which I hope will meet the general approval of the master and mates.

Sir G. PARKER
I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. BUXTON
Members of the Committee will remember that this point was raised on Clause 22 and the opinion was entirely in accord with the view just expressed by the hon. Member, namely, that while we cannot have exactly the same examination for pilots and masters, because the masters have already qualified in a certain degree, at the same time we want to have the same standard of efficiency. That being so I shall be very glad to accept this Amendment.

§ Further Amendment made: In paragraph (p) leave out the word "and" ["whose masters and mates hold pilotage certificates"] and insert instead thereof the word "or."—[Mr. Buxton.]

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§ CLAUSE 17.—(Power of Board of Trade on Representation to Revoke or vary Bye-laws or Require Pilotage Authority to Make Bye-laws.)

§ (1) If at any port either—

(a) a majority of the licensed pilots belonging to the port; or
(b) any number of persons, not less than six, being masters, owners, or insurers of ships using the port; or
(c) a dock or harbour authority not being the pilotage authority,

object to any bye-law in force at the port, or desire that any bye-law should be in force at the port which is not in force therein, they may make a representation to the Board of Trade to that effect, and the Board of Trade if the representation appears to them reasonable after giving the pilotage authority, and, if they think fit, any other persons, an opportunity of making representations on the subject, may, by order, revoke, vary, or add to any bye-law to which objection is made, or require the pilotage authority to submit to them for confirmation a bye-law for the purpose of giving effect to the representation.

§ (2) Any bye-law revoked by any such order shall cease to have effect, and any bye-law to which additions are made or which is varied or added to, shall have effect with the variations or additions made by the order.

§ (3) If a pilotage authority fail to submit to the Board of Trade for confirmation a bye-law in accordance with an order made under this Section, the Board of Trade may treat the bye-law which they have required the pilotage authority to submit to them as a bye-law submitted to them by the authority, and confirm it accordingly, and the bye-law so confirmed shall have effect as if it had been made and confirmed in accordance with this Act.

Mr. BUXTON
I beg to move in paragraph (b) to leave out the word "ships," and to insert instead thereof the word "vessels."
The object of this Amendment is to allow barges and vessels of that sort to be brought under the operation of the Clause. It does not exclude ships, but the word "vessels" will include both.

§ Amendment agreed to.