NEW CLAUSE.—(Special Provisions as to Wales.) (Hansard, 15 August 1913)

§ Mr. J. HINDS
I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time."
This Clause is designed to put right a difficulty which has occurred in Wales, in connection with the administration of sanatorium benefit. The Insurance Act entrusted the Welsh Commissioners with the distribution of a capital grant in aid of the institutions for the treatment of tuberculosis, and the Treasury entrusted them with a fund to be made available for the upkeep of those institutions. The Welsh Commissioners, however, possess all the substantial powers both of approval of schemes, and the general administration of sanatorium benefit, which in the case of England are left to the Local Government Board. By what was obviously an oversight, the decision of the House was not referred to in Clause 16 of the Act, and the consequence is that the Welsh Insurance Committee are unable to enter into agreements for the use of institutions erected and maintained in accordance with the schemes approved by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners. Although it is hardly conceivable that one Government Department would not approve of the use of an institution built under the authority of a scheme approved by another department, that dual control that results from having to obtain the approval of the Local Government Board is an extremely undesirable one in practice, and has been found to lead to confusion and delay. Apart from the delay which must necessarily arise when two departments have to be consulted, the county councils and other local authorities feel there is no finality in the present arrangement, and they find themselves unable to enter into agreements. The Clause is purely an administrative one, and I am sure it is required in Wales.

§ Mr. ORMSBY-GORE
The first part of this new Clause comes forward, as the hon. 3386 Gentleman has just said, with the authority of the Welsh Commissioners, and is designed to carry out what evidently was intended by Sub-section (3) of Section 82 of the principal Act which vested the powers if distribution and control of all the funds used for sanatorium benefit purposes in the Welsh Commissioners and not in the Local Government Board. The Welsh Commissioners were expressly given Local Government powers in that respect, but in respect of the approval of buildings they still have to apply to the Local Government Board. In Wales we have very special conditions which do not apply to England or to Scotland or to Ireland which I think are sufficient grounds for asking for this rather high-handed privilege, as it may appear on the face of it. That is to say we have the Welsh National Memorial Association which, before the National Insurance Act attempted to deal nationally with the problem of the cure of phthisis, and therefore we have a special relation to enter into, namely, a relation between the Welsh Insurance Commissioners and this large and important body, the King Edward VII. Welsh National Memorial Association. I think that the relations between those two bodies would be facilitated if the Local Government Board was kept out of this matter. It is essentially a question of relations between this large body incorporated by Charter which controls sums of money given by the people of Wales for this purpose and the Local Welsh Commission which understands the matter thoroughly. I have an Amendment to add at the end of this Clause, "but the exercise of these powers by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners shall be subject to the control of the Treasury." I agree that those words may be unnecessary because the Welsh Insurance Commission in their letters of appointment are told that they are subject to the control of the Treasury. In the original Section 16 there is no mention of Treasury control. If you wipe out the control of the Local Government Board, I do not think you ought to have a Section of an Act of Parliament which puts the Welsh Commissioners in a completely uncontrolled position, and I think it would be well, for obvious reasons, and in order to maintain Parliamentary control and administrative control generally, that you should insert some words to that effect if you take away the necessary approval of the Local Government Board. The conduct of the Welsh Commis- 3387 sioners might at any time be challenged by the Treasury who, in the long run, are responsible for anything they do.
I come to the second Sub-section of this proposed Clause. I do not know what the origin of this Sub-section is. I have never heard that it has been promoted by the Welsh Commissioners, and I do not know at all what its origin is. It does occur to me, though I may be wrong, that there is something that may be rather dangerous in it. What it virtually does, I gather, is to give to the Welsh county councils and the county borough councils power to raise an unlimited rate to supplement the Treasury grant to the National Memorial Association and the funds at the disposal of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners for the purpose of sanatorium benefit, and I am not at all sure that that is a desirable proposition. I say so for this reason that it might be quite likely to dry up the voluntary subscriptions that are made to the Memorial Association and the voluntary effort to combat phthisis and consumption throughout Wales. For instance, supposing the National Memorial Association wished to indulge in a great educational campaign, who is likely to subscribe to them in Wales if they know that they are liable to have a rate put upon them spread over the whole country for this purpose. What I would suggest is that the power to impose a rate upon the various districts in Wales should be limited to some maximum amount. I think this Sub-section requires some greater explanation than has hitherto been given. We ought to know the origin of this Sub-section and exactly what effect it will have on the voluntary sources of the National Memorial Association.

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
The hon. Gentleman has made a very fair speech, and I always understood that in this matter Wales was completely united.

§ Mr. ORMSBY-GORE
Yes.

§ Mr. MASTERMAN
And that they only wish to carry out their own work in this great treatment of tuberculosis in their own way as far as possible without outside interference. I would ask the hon. Gentleman not to put the words in the Amendment, because I think that would mean a detailed control by the Treasury, which I do not think would be appropriate work for the Treasury. I can assure him there will be complete control of any expenditure of public money by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners. The Insurance 3388 Commissioners are responsible to myself, and I am responsible to Parliament. It is rather a technical point, but in that fashion there will be control; and if at any time, as some people desire, and as I think the hon. Gentleman opposite does, that the insurance should be separated from the Treasury, it would be an Insurance Minister who ought to have control in this matter, and not the Treasury. As to the second point, I understand that also is very much desired by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners. It is entirely permissive. It is due to the existence of this Memorial Association as a separate entity in Wales, and which is doing, I believe, very great work in Wales, and it is to allow the county councils to contribute. I do not think there is any real fear of the county councils contributing in excess of the rates. I thought it was unopposed. If the hon. Gentleman says he has any objection, and would wish for a maximum standard to be imposed, perhaps he will allow me to consult with him and his friends afterwards and see if we can meet him. Under those circumstances perhaps he will let the Clause go as it stands now.