§ "The provisions of Section 114 of the principal Act, which relate to certificates of birth, shall apply to certificates of marriage in like manner as they apply to certificates of birth, except that the fee shall be 1s. instead of 6d., and that the person from whom the certificate and form of requisition may be obtained shall be the registrar or superintendent registrar or other person having the care of the register in which the marriage is entered."
§ Clause brought up, and read the first time.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a second time." I had given notice to move the Clause in the following form:—
Where, for the purposes of this Act, the marriage of any person is required to be proved by the production of a certificate of marriage, any person shall, on presenting a written requisition in such form and containing such particulars as may be from time to time prescribed by the Local Government Board for England, Scotland, or Ireland, as the case may be, and, on payment of a fee of 6d., be entitled to obtain a certified copy of the entry of the marriage of that person in the marriage register, and forms for such requisition shall on request be supplied without any charge by the Local Government Board concerned.3240 By arrangement with my hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr. Alden) I submit it in the form in which I have moved it, with the addition of the four words "and form of requisition." I do so because I understand it is technically more correct and effective than in the form in which I had intended to move it. Clause 114 of the principal Act provides that for the sum of 6d. a person having to prove his age under the Act can obtain a certificate. Hundreds and thousands of birth certificates, and, in the course of some years perhaps millions, have to be obtained, but though a smaller number, yet a considerable number, of marriage certificates have also to be obtained, and at present those certificates cost in each case some shillings.
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYIt is urged that a sum of is should be made statutory in the same way that we make sixpence so in regard to birth certificates. There does not seem to be any need to argue the merits further, and I beg to move.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSI hope the Government are going to tell us why they want a shilling for a marriage certificate and why they should not do with sixpence as in the case of birth certificates. I do not know whether it is because there are two people to a marriage and they want sixpence each [An HON. MEMBER: "And there are two people to a birth"]. There seems to be no reason why they should not do with sixpence in this case. I notice that in the original proposal of the hon. Member he put sixpence, but I suppose there were some negotiations because he is now content to take the more modest suggestion of the hon. Member for Tottenham. There is no use splitting small sums like this, and while we are about it we might as well make it sixpence for all certificates.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThe marriage certificate at present costs about 3s. 7d. There are more particulars to fill in and a certain amount of search in the case of those certificates, and I do not think we can reduce the charge to sixpence as it is more complicated. We are very glad to accept the proposal of is which we think is a reasonable fee in this case for the work which has to be done, and we agree to it in that form.
§ Question, "That the Clause be read a second time," put, and agreed to.
3241§ Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
§ Mr. GWYNNEI beg to move to leave out the words "the fee shall be one shilling instead of."
The object of this Amendment is to make the fee sixpence instead of a shilling. The right hon. Gentleman's only explanation is that in the case of a marriage certificate there is snore search. Are we to understand that the Government thinks that a man remembers more easily where he is born than where he is married, and that there is more search to find out where the marriage event took place? Surely a man is much more likely to remember where he is married than where he is born! That is the only argument of the right hon. Gentleman and he says he believes that the ordinary cost is something like 3s. 7d. The right hon. Gentleman really has not considered this matter at all. He managed to stop an hon. Friend on his own side and he thought that the answer which was good enough for the hon. Member for Northants (Mr. Chiozza Money) was good enough for us. I beg to say it is not, and we are not induced to accept the argument so readily. For that reason, unless he offers some better reason than he has already given, I beg to move that the charge for the certificate be 6d.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAI have to tell hon. Members that I have given attention to this point and have consulted people.
§ Dr. MACNAMARANo, I have not consulted the hon. Member for Northampton about this matter. On this occasion, however, he has not been asked. I have consulted those responsible for making up the register, and although I sympathise with the view taken, when you consider that you have to go to a church and take out the details and that you are directly responsible, a shilling is a reasonable fee. I ask the Committee to accept that, in view of the responsibility of those who carry out the work.
| Division No. 13.] | AYES. | |
| Addison, Dr. | Buxton, Mr. Noel | Jones, Mr. Haydn |
| Alden, Mr. | Byles, Sir William | Lardner, Mr. |
| Astor, Mr. | Carr-Gomm, Mr. | Macdonald, Mr. Ramsay |
| Baker, Sir Randolf | Devlin, Mr. | Macnamara, Dr. |
| Bathurst, Mr. Charles | Hamilton, Mr. | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Beck, Mr. | Harcourt, Mr. Robert | Masterman, Mr. |
| Boyle, Mr. Daniel | Harvey, Mr. Edmund | Money, Mr. Chiozza |
| Bowerman, Mr. | Jones, Mr. Glyn- | O'Grady, Mr. |
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSDoes the right hon. Gentleman say that in order to get this certificate you have to search a parish register? Surely, the right hon. Gentleman must be badly informed! Is it not the case that these registers are kept at Somerset House? I am not very sure myself, but I have an idea that that is so.
§ Dr. MACNAMARAThere are other cases.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSYes, before the year 1834; but I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that all the marriages since the year 1830 are in registers kept at Somerset House, and there is no more reason for charging a shilling for these than for any other of the certificates. Unless it is for some ancient marriages which have to be found at the parish churches, the Government ought to take the risk.
§ Mr. MASTERMANIt is not the ancient marriages; it is the modern marriages. They are with the clergy or the people keeping the registers. It is a question of how much you are going to take from the people keeping the registers. They get 3s. 7d., and we do not think it is fair to make them reduce that amount. Surely, as a compromise between paying nothing and 3s. 7d., a shilling is a very fair offer, when you realise that you are influencing the money which is paid to other persons, and reducing the income of those other persons.
Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANSWill the right hon. Gentleman say how long these registers are kept in the parishes, and when they go to Somerset House? It is a year, I think.
§ Mr. MASTERMANWe have no reason to resist this proposal if it was at all practicable, but it is only after the fullest consultation, and even an attempt to put pressure on the Registrar-General, that we found we could not ask the Committee to go lower than a shilling.
§ Question put, "That the words 'one shilling instead of' stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 33; Noes 9.
| Parkes, Mr. | Samuel, Mr. Jonathan | Tryon, Captain |
| Roberts, Mr. Charles | Scott, Mr. MacCallum | Warner, Sir Courtenay |
| Roberts, Mr. George | Thomas, Mr. | Wing, Mr. |
| NOES. | ||
| Boyle, Mr. William | Gwynne, Mr. Rupert | Locker-Lampson, Mr. Godfrey |
| Forster, Mr. | Hall, Mr. Frederick (Dulwich) | Remnant, Mr. |
| Goulding, Mr. | Lawson, Mr. Harry | Worthington-Evans, Mr. |
§ Question, "That the Clause be added to the Bill," put, and agreed to.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That, notwithstanding the Sitting of the House, the Committee do sit till 4 o'clock this day—"[Mr. Masterman]—put, and agreed to.