HC Deb 15 August 1913 vol 56 cc3343-5

"All proceedings for any contravention of or non-compliance with any of the provisions of Part I. or of Part III., so far as relating to matters under Part I. of the principal Act or this Act, or the regulations made thereunder, shall in Scotland be instituted and carried on under the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction (Scotland) Acts, and may be taken at the instance of the procurator fiscal or of the Scottish Insurance Commissioners."

Clause brought up, and read the first time.

Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR

I beg to move, That the Clause be read a second time."

I think this and the following new Clause which stand in my name may be treated entirely as non-controversial. They relate solely to Scotland, and have been made necessary by a judgment of the Lord Justiciary. I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to accept both Clauses. One relates to criminal, and the other to civil proceedings.

Mr. MASTERMAN

These Clauses are intended to meet a point which had been raised in the course of prosecution in Scotland. They deal with the Scottish Judiciary Law, and the Lord Advocate of Scotland, representing the Scottish Judiciary, and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners, have agreed on them. Therefore, I think we must accept them. They really put the Scottish Commissioners in connection with prosecutions in the same position as the English Commissioners occupy at the present time.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

What is the genesis of these Clauses? Have they been asked for by the Scottish Insurance Commissioners? Have they been found in practice to be required? Have they been drafted by the Commissioners, and given to the hon. Member to move? Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can say whether they have been proved in practice to be required, and if the Scottish Insurance Commissioners have made any representations to him with a view of putting these Clauses down.

Mr. DUNCAN MILLAR

These Clauses have been rendered necessary owing to a judgment of the High Court of Judiciary in Scotland under which it has been held that the Scottish Commissioners have no title to raise a prosecution under Section 69 of the Act. It is only possible for them to enforce civil proceedings for the repayment of contributions upon an employer if as a condition precedent they have succeeded in a prosecution under Section 69. Therefore these Clauses are necessary to meet a judgment which has been issued in the course of this month, the Lord President of the Court of Judiciary dissenting from the judgment. They have the approval of the authorities in Scotland.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

The hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. I do not know whether he can.

Dr. ADDISON

Can we properly discuss in the Committee the question as to, who drafted a Clause?

Mr. R. HARCOURT

This is a serious point. I hope we shall not be asked by whom particular Clauses were drafted. The Scottish Commissioners were entitled to consult whom they desired, and I think the inquiry is most improper.

The CHAIRMAN

It seems to me that the hon. Member has fairly answered the question.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I do not know whether you rule that upon the point of Order or upon the merits. I desire to address the Committee upon it. We are asked to accept two Clauses virtually without discussion. I want to know who, in fact, is responsible for them. I do not pretend to know whether they actually meet the case. If the hon. Gentleman tells us that the Scottish Insurance Commissioners with their legal advisers have considered the decision which has been given, and ask him to put down these Clauses, I am prepared to accept them at once. It would facilitate proceedings if we knew whether or not these were, so to speak, official Clauses.

Mr. MASTERMAN

I can answer that question. The hon. Member approached me, as dozens of other Members have approached me, stating what they wanted in the Bill, and asked me to give what advice I could, so that the drafting should be right. I referred the question to the Lord Advocate, who, I thought, ought to have a word in the matter, and to the Scottish Commissioners, and I understand that both the Scottish Commissioners and the Lord Advocate agreed finally to this form of drafting.

Mr. BOOTH

I hope that the hon. Member for Colchester, if ever he moves anything, will tell us whether it is the Conservative Committee or some other body that is responsible.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.