HC Deb 06 August 1913 vol 56 cc1663-70

(A) The manner and conditions in and upon which the following matters may be carried into effect:—

  1. (i) The amalgamation for the purposes of Part I. of the principal Act of any two or more approved societies, or of an approved society with a society which is not an approved society, or of any two or more branches of an approved society:
  2. (ii) The transfer by an approved society of its engagements under Part I. of the principal Act, or of such of those engagements as relate to members resident in a particular part of the United Kingdom, to any other approved society which undertakes to fulfil these engagements, and the transfer from one branch to one or more other branches, or to the society of such engagements as aforesaid.
  3. (iii) The financial adjustments to be made on any such amalgamation or transfer.

(B) The manner and conditions in and upon which the dissolution of approved societies may be carried into effect, and for that purpose providing for the valuation of the assets and liabilities of dissolved societies under Part I. of the principal Act, and the reduction (either permanently or temporarily), in the event of a deficiency being disclosed, of the rates of benefits payable to members and the periods during which those benefits or any of them are payable, and for the establishment of a special fund to which contributions of such members are to be paid, and out of which their benefits are to be paid, and the application, subject to the prescribed modifications, adaptations, and exceptions to such funds and the members thereof, of the provisions of Part I. of the principal Act relating to approved societies and the membership of and transfer to and from approved societies.

(C) Authorising the Commissioners to withdraw approval from a society on account of maladministration of its affairs under the principal Act in cases where it appears expedient in the interests of the members of the society to do so.

(D) The crediting or variation (whether by way of increase or decrease) and cancellation of reserve values.

(E) Applying to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund and to members of that fund such of the provisions of the principal Act as amended by this Act, relating to approved societies and to membership of and transfer to and from approved societies, as the Commissioners think necessary for facilitating admissions to and transfer from the fund and for the proper administration of the fund, and for enabling a man entitled to the payment of maternity benefit from that fund to continue to be so entitled until transferred to an approved society or until he becomes a deposit contributor, and for extending any of the provisions of Sub-section (3) of Section 46 of the principal Act to seamen, soldiers, and marines who are not members of an approved society.

(F) For enabling the sums to be paid or credited in any year to insurance committees under Sub-section (1) of Section 61 of the principal Act, instead of being paid or credited at the commencement of the year, to be paid or credited at such time or times and in such instalments and in such manner and proportions as may, with the consent of the Treasury, be prescribed.

(G) Enabling approved societies and insurance committees, and in the case of persons entitled to benefits out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, the Admiralty or Army Council to appoint a person to exercise on behalf of any insured person of unsound mind any right of election which that person is, under Part I. of the principal Act entitled to exercise, and to appoint a person to receive on behalf and for the benefit of such person any sums by way of benefit which would otherwise have been payable to him.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I beg to move, in Schedule 1, to leave out paragraph (D).

This Schedule deals with matters with respect to which the Insurance Commissioners may make regulations, and the paragraph which I propose should be left out has to do with the crediting or variation (whether by way of increase or de- crease) and cancellation of reserve values. The provision of reserve values for insured people is, I need hardly say, the basis of the whole of the insurance. Were it not for the provision of the reserve values amounting to nearly £70,000,000 the insurance benefits could not possibly be given. This House is authorising the Commissioners by regulation to reduce or to cancel those reserve values. We have, it will be admitted, given pretty wide powers to the Insurance Commissioners, but we are now asked to give them powers to take away the whole of the capital of the insurance scheme. The Schedule also gives the Commissioners power to increase the reserve values if they choose so to do. It is quite true that is not exactly the same as giving them powers to tax the subject, but it is nearly the same thing, for if they increase the reserve values by a considerable sum, and because of that fact additional benefits are able to be given—a thing which, I would remind the House, is quite feasible—then the State would have to pay two-ninths of the cost of the benefit, and an additional charge would fall on the people. We are giving the Insurance Commissioners these great powers, which if used to the full would, on the one hand, enable them to destroy national insurance altogether—although, of course, nobody for a moment expects such a use to be made of them—and, on the other hand, would increase the charge on the people. I move my Amendment so as to take that power from them.

Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

Mr. MASTERMAN

May I say that I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester, who really does know the Act, does not sometimes think it necessary to exhibit that knowledge? If you leave out the Schedule, as he knows full well, the Act, as it is proposed to amend it, cannot be worked. Almost every change that we are making in the Act involves altering the reserve values, and in the case of one so familiar with the Act as the hon. Gentleman, I need not specify what those alterations will amount to. But I would remind him and other hon. Members that regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners have to be laid before Parliament, and can be changed by Parliament, if it is so desired. There is, therefore, an ample safeguard against anything being done by way of regulation of which Parliament disapproves.

Mr. FORSTER

At this late hour of the morning I do not propose to argue the case for my hon. Friend's Amendment, but I rise because I wish to take advantage of this opportunity to ask the Government if they can now give us some indication of the course they propose to adopt in reference to the Third Reading of this Bill. I think it must be quite obvious to the right hon. Gentleman, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, that it is quite out of the question to take the Third Reading to-night, and I am supported in that belief by a sentence that fell from the right hon. Gentleman when dealing with an Amendment moved from the Benches behind him only a few minutes ago. The right hon. Gentleman said that lie was unwilling to enter into the discussion of the details of so important an Amendment at one o'clock in the morning. If one o'clock in the morning is too late for the examination of an important Amendment, as the right hon. Gentleman himself admits, I think the House will agree that it is too late an hour at which to enter upon the Third Reading of so large a Bill as this. What I suggest is that the right hon. Gentleman should allow some fair opportunity —we do not ask for a lengthy one—to enable us to review as I say, shortly, what has taken place in connection with this very important Bill, and I hope he will see his way to do so in connection with the Third Reading stage.

Mr. MASTERMAN

As the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks and his Friends know, I had hoped very much to get this Bill through its remaining stages to-night. All our arrangements were, in fact, made with that idea, in order that the Bill might be sent to another place in time to allow free opportunity for discussion there. On the other hand, I cannot for a moment deny the force of what the hon. Member has said about the course of the proceedings to-day. Through no fault of his or of the hon. Gentlemen whom he represents—I will not say through any fault of anybody at all—progress has not been quite so rapid or easy as we had hoped it might be. The fact is that we have consumed some four or five hours to-day in what I may term internal combustion in our own party. The matter is now, I am glad to say, settled, but it is impossible to deny that it has prolonged the period during which we hoped both to conclude the consideration of the Bill on Report and to obtain the Third Reading. I assure the House that I wish to give as much publicity as possible to the acknowledgment which I gladly make of the way in which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sevenoaks and his hon. Friends have done everything in their power, both to improve the Bill and to help us to get through it as rapidly as possible. As regards the proposal he has advanced that we should not proceed with the Third Reading to-night, I may say that I have consulted those who are responsible for the arrangement of business in this House and they tell me that there is no time available to take the Third Reading in the ordinary course of the proceedings of the House. The suggestion I would therefore make to the hon. Gentleman is that the Third Reading of the Bill might be put down for to-morrow night as the second Order of, the day. The first Order, as the House knows, is the Indian Budget, which, I suppose, will take the greater part of the day. We should be prepared, however, to put down after that the Third Reading of the present Bill and to give hon. Gentlemen the opportunity, which they quite fairly wish to take, of making any general explanations concerning the Bill and, I hope, of expressing general satisfaction with the Bill as it emerges after the consideration we have devoted to it.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

The whole cause of the situation with which we find ourselves faced in not being able to discuss this Bill during proper hours is due to the very late period of the Session at which the Government brought the measure before the House. The difficulties really are not even due to the Scottish Members—not that I have a great admiration for people who put up a sham fight and then run away—but are due to the action of the Government themselves, as the Government ought to have taken care that such an important Bill as this was not delayed until such a late period of the Session. I do not think the offer to take the Bill at Eleven o'Clock to-morrow night is very much good, though that hour certainly is a little better than half-past one in the morning. Nor can I feel very much impressed by the new-born solicitude displayed by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, as spokesman for the Govern- ment, that the House of Lords should be allowed plenty of opportunity to consider the Bill. I do not think that in the present condition of the House of Lords—a condition to which they have been reduced by the Government—fit matters very much whether they have the Bill to-morrow, or on Monday, or even on Tuesday,

Indeed, if the House of Lords take the Bill seriously into consideration there is nothing to prevent them, should further time be required, sitting on for another week. In that case this House could adjourn and receive the Bill at the end of the following week, when it had been carefully considered by the House of Lords. At any rate I think it is a very unfortunate suggestion that we are to consider this Bill under very disadvantageous conditions in order to enable the House of Lords to consider it carefully, when the real difficulty is due to the late period of the Session at which the Bill was brought forward. I venture to suggest that the proper course is to put this Bill down as first Order on Monday. That means a certain delay, I know, but if it is done the House will have a real opportunity of considering the Bill which it will not have if it is taken at Eleven o'clock to-morrow night. By that time the House could not have considered the Amendments made today or anything else. I do not think that is an unreasonable suggestion, and I venture to make it to the Government and ask them whether they cannot so arrange their business as to take this Bill first on Monday.

Mr. MASTERMAN

I am afraid we could not do that. It has been agreed by both sides that the Revenue Bill is to be taken as the first Order on Monday. If the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. H. W. Forster) thinks the offer I make to him useless—I am only anxious to meet his wishes—I am quite willing to take the Third Reading now. As to the question of the House of Lords I would remind the Noble Lord (Lord R. Cecil) that it is not this Government who sent up a Bill of 103 Clauses and asked the House of Lords to consider it in twenty-four hours.

Lord ROBERT CECIL

I never thought that was a precedent which should be followed.

Mr. FORSTER

Without embarking on these controversial topics, all I can say is that beggars cannot be choosers. The whole of our proceedings on this Bill have been conducted under such extreme pressure as regards time that we are almost accustomed to accepting any disadvantage we cannot avoid. The offer of the right hon. Gentleman to take the Bill to-morrow as second Order is some degree better than taking it now, and I suppose as we cannot get anything better we shall have to be content with that. I reserve anything I may have to say with reference to the procedure of the Government in bringing this Bill on so late until to-morrow night.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

With regard to the Amendment before the House, may I ask leave to withdraw it, with a view to immediately moving that the words should be added at the end of this paragraph in the Schedule, "necessary for the purposes of this Act." If the right hon. Gentleman will assure me that all that is wanted is merely to carry out the provisions of the Act, I have nothing more to say. I should prefer to discuss it, but at this late hour we are all tired out, and we are all sick of insurance.

Mr. MASTERMAN

I cannot give quite that undertaking because I am informed that in some societies the reserve values have to be adjusted. But the whole regulations will come before the House of Commons for consideration and nothing will be done to vitiate or prejudice the interests of insured persons.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these regulations do not come before the House until they have been brought into effect and acted on, and the House of Commons is really not in a position to effectually annul them because of the contracts that have been made on the strength of them?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. G. LOCKER-LAMPSON

I beg to move the Amendment standing in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Wilton (Mr. C. Bathurst)—after the word "enabling" ["and for enabling a man entitled to the payment of maternity benefit"], to insert the words "the wife or widow of." We have decided that the maternity benefit should be the mother's benefit, so that the words of the Schedule will have to be altered.

Dr. MACNAMARA

The hon. Member's object is to make this Schedule follow the new form of Clause 13. The phrase "for enabling a man entitled to the payment of maternity benefit" will have to be modified in some way in order not to run counter to the new form of the Clause. Whether the proposal in the Amendment is the right one I do not know, and I hope it will not be passed; but I will give an undertaking that nothing shall appear in the Schedule which will be in conflict with the new form of Clause 13.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill to be read the third time tomorrow (Thursday).