HC Deb 08 April 1913 vol 51 cc1141-4

This Act may be cited as the Army (Annual) Act, 1913.

Mr. PRETYMAN

I beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress and ask leave to sit again."

I do not think that the Committee desires at this hour to enter upon a discussion of this Bill, which is likely to take a very long time. The Secretary for War may be prepared to give us some better occasion than this.

The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Colonel Seely)

If it is not the general wish of hon. Members that we should proceed with this Bill to-night, I do not wish to press the matter. As the Committee knows, it is necessary to pass this Bill before a certain date, which is not far distant. If it is understood that we can pass the Bill with a reasonable time for discussion, and perhaps, in order to make quite sure if we undertake to put it down as first Order, and an indication were given that we should dispose of it within reasonable time, I should myself be prepared on behalf of the Government to agree to that. I venture to make this request because it is so important at the present time that we should get this Bill through the Committee stage. I may say that there is nothing novel in the Bill this year, although there are one or two important matters, notably the point raised by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite (Captain Craig), to which I wish to give a reply. If we can arrange the matter on that basis I shall be glad to make representations to the Prime Minister and get it put down as first Order, on the understanding that it would be allowed to pass in the necessary interests of the Army.

Mr. PRETYMAN

I do not think we can make any definite arrangement as to the exact time to be taken, but there will be no desire on this side of the Committee to discuss the Bill unduly. I understand that the Secretary for War will put it down as first Order on some date within the period in which it is necessary that it should be passed. When I say that the discussion will not be unduly prolonged on this side of the Committee, I must not be understood to limit it to an hour or two, or as saying that there will be no lengthy discussion.

Colonel SEELY

I say at once on behalf of the Government that I accept the suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite, that I should undertake to make arrangements with the Prime Minister, who is the proper authority, to put the Bill down as first Order, on the understanding that, although hon. Gentlemen opposite are not bound to an hour or two, there will be no lengthy discussion.

Mr. KING

I rise to offer my protest against this arrangement. When the two Front Benches suddenly get up and embrace one another across the table I feel sure some immoral proceeding is taking place. I want the Committee to realise that most hon. Members present have, like myself, come down prepared to defend our country, even if it means sitting up to a very early hour of the night or the morning in order to have an Army able to defend us. Under the circumstances under which we live at present I consider that delay is dangerous, and therefore I cannot allow this proposal to report Progress without a strong and emphatic protest, and I feel I have, if not the concurrence of the two Front Benches, at any rate the support of all other respectable parts of the House; and, in view of the very earnest appeal from a devoted follower of the Government, I hope they will compel the withdrawal of the Motion, and, if not, I shall have to divide against it.

Mr. JOHN WARD

I am of the opinion that this is going to prevent a most useful discussion on Army matters. We usually look to this occasion for an opportunity of free discussion, and it appears to me that by this arrangement a few Gentlemen on the Front Opposition Bench, and some Army men on the other side of the House, will get the larger part of the opportunity of addressing the House upon Army subjects, and criticisms from this side will be utterly ruled out, because it will be suggested that it is we who are really causing delay. I can quite understand that the right hon. Gentleman (Colonel Seely) and his Friends are quite anxious to adopt this proceeding, because by that means they avoid what might be harsh and unfriendly criticism from people belonging to their own party, and I consider it is a most unfortunate suggestion that we should in any way curtail discussion. We might have had one all-night sitting on the subject when hon. Members could have had a chance of speaking, and not limit it to a few special Gentlemen whose names will be handed into the Chairman before the proceedings begin. That is how I find myself in most of these discussions, and expect to find myself again if the suggested arrangement is carried out. I enter my protest against an arrangement of this description come to by the official element on both sides of the House. The Opposition are worse than you. I can understand you wishing to avoid discussion.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

It is usual for hon. Members to address the Chair.

Mr. J. WARD

I cannot understand why hon. Members on the opposite side of the House should wish to avoid discussion, but I can understand the Minister of War wishing to get this carried through with just a few hon. Members taking part in the Debate. So far as I am concerned, I am not going to divide on the subject, but at the same time I wish to enter my protest against, the arrangement which has been made.

Colonel SEELY

In order that there may be no misunderstanding on the part of my two hon. Friends, I wish to say that I was myself greatly disappointed that this arrangement had been come to, and that the officials of the War Office should be unable to proceed with the Bill. We understood that the whole business would be through very shortly owing to the Bill being of a non-contentious character. Only one point was raised on the Second Reading. I understood it would be dealt with in half an hour. Greatly to my disappointment I found it was proposed that there should be considerable discussion on the Bill. Indeed, I understood that it was the general wish of hon. Gentlemen on our side that they should not have to sit up until a late hour, although they were willing to do it, if necessary, in the interests of the State. I have stated what happened in this matter in order to dispel the illusion that this arrangement between the Government and the Opposition—a very proper one—was going to prevent discussion from taking place.

Captain CRAIG

With regard to what the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. J. Ward) has said, I think he ought to be the last person in the House to be prevented from taking part in a debate. When he gets the chance he fights fairly in regard to any grievance he may feel in relation to any Bill before the House. I think the arrangement come to between both Front Benches is a most sensible one. The practice hitherto has been to take the Army (Annual) Bill in the small hours of the morning, when no proper reports of the Debates can be got by the country. On this occasion I think it is necessary to have the Debate taken in the day-time, when one or two matters of importance are sure to crop up. We are satisfied with the arrangements come to.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow (Wednesday).