§ 64. Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the Secretary to the Treasury whether he is aware that, owing to the decision of the Health Insurance Commissioners to approve no society having less than fifty members, the bulk of the small friendly societies in the villages, including many which have been in existence over 100 years, are being either wound up or absorbed in larger societies, to the annoyance of their members; and why, if such societies are well-conducted and their subsequent grouping in county associations is contemplated, such a limit of member ship is deemed necessary as a condition of approval?
§ Mr. MASTERMANThe Commissioners have no evidence leading to the conclusion suggested in the question, that the bulk of small friendly societies in the villages are being wound up or absorbed. Large numbers of small village societies have received approval, others have become branches or lodges of affiliated orders, others have been associated together for the purposes of the Act in county associations. The total number of cases in which the Commissioners have been unable to advise societies of the class referred to to proceed with an application 514 for separate approval, through the smallness of their membership, is less than 100.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that in more than one county it has been found impossible to form county associations owing to this stipulation, and can he say under what section of the National Insurance Act the Commissioners are authorised to make this stipulation?
§ Mr. MASTERMANIt is evident the Commissioners have to draw some line as to the smallness of a society to which approval can be given. That was clearly stated in the House when the Act was going through. I am not aware of the facts to which the hon. Gentleman refers.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that when the Bill was going through the House the Chancellor of the Exchequer expressly stated that by the formation of those associations there would be no necessity to enforce a limit of membership?
§ Mr. MASTERMANI do not know what was said, but it is obvious you cannot have a society of ten or fifteen members, as one disablement benefit would bankrupt the whole society.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that a very large number of these small friendly societies, registered and unregistered, consist of forty or forty-five members, and are being crushed out of existence?
§ Mr. MASTERMANThe limit drawn is thirty-five if there is any reasonable chance of obtaining fifty members. The benefits given under the Act are different from the benefits given by the friendly societies. The benefits are such that in the case of a very small number, one or two benefits given might bankrupt the society.
§ Mr. CASSELIs it not the case that the Commissioners have no power to refuse approval on the ground of the smallness of the society?
§ Mr. MASTERMANThe Commissioners have the power so long as the refusal is not unreasonable.
§ Mr. CASSELThe Bill was expressly altered with the view to withdrawing the power of refusing approval to a society on that ground.
§ Mr. MASTERMANThere is a good deal of difference between five thousand and thirty-five members.