§ (1) The Transferred Sum shall be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and in such manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.
1152§ (2) In the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each financial year by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.
§ (3) In in any financial year the proceeds of any Irish tax imposed as an addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, exceed one-tenth of the proceeds in Ireland of that duty as levied as an Imperial tax for the same period, the amount of the excess shall not be treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the proceeds of the Irish tax, and the amount payable to the Irish Exchequer in respect of the 1153 proceeds of the Irish tax shall be reduced accordingly:
§ Provided that—
- (a) For the purposes of this provision, the proceeds of any tax shall be deemed to be the proceeds as determined by the Joint Exchequer Board: and
- (b) The foregoing provision shall not apply in cases where the excess is solely due to the reduction of the rate of the Imperial tax.
§ (4) When any reserved service is transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, the Transferred Sum shall be increased by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the equivalent of any saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom by reason of the transfer, and in determining that equivalent regard shall be had to the prospect of any increase or decrease in the cost of that service which may be expected to arise from causes not being matters of administration.
§ The sum by which the Transferred Sum is to be increased in pursuance of this provision may be fixed by the Joint Exchequer Board so as to vary during the first ten years after the transfer, but subject thereto shall be a definite sum.
Captain CRAIGOn a point of Order. Can you tell us, Sir, exactly how many Clauses have to be passed under the guillotine in the next hour and a half? [An HON. MEMBEK: "An hour and eight minutes."]
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANI do not think that is a point of Order; at any rate, it does not now arise.
Captain CRAIGIs it not necessary that we should know how we can allocate this hour in order to get the best possible results?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANThat is not a point of Order. Under the Order of the House a time-table is set up and must be carried through.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEMay I ask whether it is within your cognisance at the time the guillotine falls what the Question to be put will be?
§ The DEPUTY-CHAIRMANIf a point of Order arises at 10.30 it will be dealt with by whoever is in the Chair. If it arises when I am here I am quite prepared to deal with it at that time.
§ Mr. GOLDSMITHI beg to move, in Sub-section (l), at the beginning, to insert the words, "After deducting from the Transferred Sum any charges which, pursuant to this Act, are to be, or may be, made on the Transferred Sum, the balance of."
In moving this Amendment, I desire to protest against the absurdly short time which is left to us to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. The guillotine falls at 10.30, and we have got just over an hour to discuss all five Clauses, which are of the greatest importance, and which I think the Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hurry up."]
§ Sir E. CARSONHurry up yourselves.
Captain CRAIGWe have only a few minutes, and you keep shouting like a lot of jackals. If you want trouble, ask for it.
§ Mr. GOLDSMITHWe have a very short time in which to discuss these Clauses, and I hope lion. Members opposite will give us an opportunity in the very short time that remains to us to debate them. I am absolutely certain that nearly the whole of these five Clauses will be passed without discussion and without a word having been said either in favour of or against the proposals which they contain. I maintain that it is really reducing the proceedings to farce and absurdity to ask us to discuss the whole of these Clauses and five and a half pages of Amendments in the time allotted to us this evening. The object of the Amendment which I am moving is to make it absolutely clear that certain deductions have to be made from the Transferred Sum before that sum is transferred to the Irish Exchequer. If my Amendment is accepted, the amended Clause will not add a single penny to the deductions which will be made by the Imperial Exchequer, nor will it take a single penny from the sum which the Irish Exchequer will receive. We are only making absolutely clear that the Transferred Sum is not exactly the same as the actual cash payment which the Irish Exchequer is going to receive. It will show that certain deductions have to be made and that the payments which have to be made under the provisions of the Bill will form the first charge upon the Transferred Sum and the first charge upon the sum which would stand to the credit of the Irish Exchequer, and until those deductions have been made nothing 1155 could be paid to the Irish Exchequer. The Irish Exchequer with regard to this sum is nearly in the same position as a deposit contributor under the National Insurance Act. A deposit contributor under that Act has certain sums standing to his credit at the Post Office consisting of his own and his employer's contributions, and the contributions of the State, but he cannot draw the whole of the amount which stands to his credit as certain deductions have to be made and certain charges have to be met, for instance, for medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and management expenses. I say that the Irish Exchequer is really in exactly the same position. They cannot draw the whole of the cash amount which stands to their credit until certain charges have been met. There is one very important difference in their case, and that is that the Irish Government can draw £2,000,000 more benefit than the Irish people have actually paid for. That is different from the case of the deposit contributor.
The Transferred Sum consists in the first place of the Irish services, that is to say, the cost of the Irish services or the actual amount which has been saved to the Imperial Exchequer by the transfer of those services. In the second place it consists of the subsidy of £500,000 which eventually will be reduced to £200,000, and further consists of any reserve services which subsequently may be transferred to the Irish Parliament. I believe it is the intention of the Government that those deductions should be made first, and that the sum should then be paid ever to the Irish Exchequer. That is by no means clear in the Bill, and I understand that the opinion prevails very largely that this sum is going to be paid over to the Irish Exchequer, and then subsequently the Imperial Government can send in its claim to the Irish Government for the cost of the services which are to be paid by the Irish Government to the Imperial Government. If my Amendment is accepted it will be perfectly clear that those deductions will have to be made first. I should like to point out that a very large number of prior charges have to be made under the Bill. For instance, under Clause 18 all charges under the Land Purchase Acts which now fall on the guarantee fund will come out of this Transferred Sum. Under Clause 20 all existing charges on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the 1156 Transferred Sum. Under Clause 31, £5,000 will have to be contributed out of this fund towards the salary of the Lord Lieutenant. Under Clause 32 it is provided that the pension and salary of the existing judges and Civil servants, and the superannuation and other allowances of unestablished Civil servants shall be paid out of this Transferred Sum. Clause 23 provides that if a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament on the Transferred Sum, a sum shall be deducted representing the cost of management sinking fund and interest.
The Committee ought to remember that after six years, when the Irish Constabulary is transferred to the Irish Government, an increased deduction will have to be made for the pension of the Constabulary. I think we were told the other day that that deduction will amount to no less than £400,000. Another deduction is not only possible, but probable. When the Irish Parliament reduces or discontinues a tax, the loss which that reduction or discontinuance involves will also be deducted from the Transferred Sum. At the present moment we have not got really any knowledge and we have not been told to what amount that Transferred Sum will really come. I maintain we ought to know not only what the deductions are going to be, but the actual amount of the cash balance which is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. At present this Transferred Sum is to amount to £6,100,000. The Prime Minister told us the other day that a certain number of these deductions amounted to £300,000. That is to say, £5,800,000 is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. In six years you are going to add £400,000 to that. Therefore the amount of the deduction which we know of in six years time will amount to £700,000, so that instead of handing over £7,300,000, which would be the sum at that time, the amount which you are actually going to hand over of cash, totals only £6,600,000. I have only up to the present been dealing with deductions which we know of, that is to say those which the Prime Minister mentioned in answer to questions the other day. There are certain other deductions which will be made, and which we cannot possibly estimate at the present moment. Deductions will have to be made when a tax is reduced by the Irish Parliament, and deductions will have to be made when land annuities are not paid, and deduc- 1157 tions will have to be made when a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament. We have no information, and we cannot tell at the present moment what will be the actual sum handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is necessary that we should make it perfectly clear in the Bill that these deductions have to be made before the Transferred Sum is handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is all the more necessary because in the Bill of 1893 the whole of the charges which were to be made on the Irish Consolidated Fund were collected into one Clause. Clause 14 of the Bill of 1893 said:—
"There shall be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund in favour of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom as a first charge on that fund all such sums which—"
and then comes a list of the sums which have to be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund. By this proposal we should obtain practically the same result. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, because, after all, it only expresses what they have often told us is their intention.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe hon. Member, by his speech, has made perfectly apparent to the Committee the object he has in view. He stated at the outset of his remarks that the Amendment, if inserted, would, as a matter of fact, make no difference at all to the finances, neither adding anything to nor deducting anything from the sum payable to the Irish Parliament; and that, in fact, it was nothing more than a drafting Amendment. In our opinion it is not an improvement on the present drafting, for reasons which I shall give. In the first instance, I must quarrel with the hon. Member on one point. He made a comparison between our proposals with regard to deductions from the Transferred Sum and the position of a deposit contributor under the Insurance Act. He said that there was this difference, that while the deposit contributor gets the sums he has paid in, the Irish Government will receive in the Transferred Sum £2,000,000 benefit more than they have paid for. That is not so, if he takes into account all the expenditure upon Irish purposes. In the Transferred Sum and in the reserved services it is true there is a margin of £2,000,000 which Irish taxes do not pay for. But if he is dealing with the Transferred Sum, and that is the purpose of his Amendment, the case is just the opposite. Irishmen will 1158 be paying £3,000,000 more than they will get back in the Transferred Sum, because Irish taxes amount to over £9,000,000 and the Transferred Sum to only £6,000,000, every penny of which will consist of Irish money. There is nothing in the Transferred Sum from the British taxpayer's pocket at all.
It is a point of importance, because we are often told that the Irish Parliament will have at their disposal a great deal of British money over which we have no control. I am pointing out, as I pointed out on the First Heading of the Bill, that as far as the Transferred Sum is concerned it might more correctly be termed a re-transferred sum, and we might have adopted machinery for the payment of it direct into the Irish Exchequer instead of its coming to our Exchequer first and then being repaid to Dublin. The hon. Member says that our intention that certain sums should be deducted from the Transferred Sum before it is paid over is not made clear in the Bill. But he himself read several Clauses dealing with this point, and pointed out that Clause by Clause the Bill does distinctly in terms provide that certain sums shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum. For instance, Clause 17 (2) says that if the Irish Parliament reduces taxation the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each year by such sum as may be determined to represent the amount of the loss through that reduction of taxation. Clause 18 states that if there is a failure in the payment of land purchase annuities such arrears which would under the Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act. Clause 20 provides that the deficit on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. And so in each Clause through the Bill it is made clear beyond all possibility of mistake under what heads sums are to be deducted from the Transferred Sum. The hon. Member said that we ought to have followed the Bill of 1893 and collected all these matters into one Clause. The Bill of 1893 proceeded on different principles. There the taxes were paid into an Irish fund and special provision had to be made in a special Clause, for, so to speak, taking away from the control of Irish Departments certain sums which were to be deducted from them. We proceed on a different principle, and the 1159 same necessity does not arise. Even if the Amendment were accepted, it would not have the effect which the hon. Member desires, because it would merely be stated in this one Clause that the Transferred Sum was to be paid over, subject to certain deductions, but it would not bring together into one Clause, as the hon. Member desires the various deductions which would have to be made.
Perhaps this is a convenient opportunity for stating very briefly how the position stands with regard to these deductions. The Prime Minister, a few days ago, gave an answer to an hon. Member opposite in which he stated, so far as can now be ascertained, what these deductions would be under the Bill as it stands. There are certain Amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary which will increase by about £100,000 certain charges for the benefit of Irish Civil servants who may retire under the Bill. They will make the sum £380,000 instead of £280,000. But that amount is problematical, because we do not really know how many Civil servants will retire. That, however, is the Treasury Estimate. I ought to point out that this does not mean that the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government will be reduced by £280,000 or £380,000. Not at all; because these deductions come off both sides of the account. Let me give an instance. Take, for example, the pension of an Irish judge—which is charged on the Consolidated Fund, and will be secured on the Transferred Sum paid by the Treasury here and deducted from the Transferred Sum. It is true that the Transferred Sum will be reduced by £2,000, or whatever it may be; but, on the other side of the account, the judge's pension is part of the existing cost of Irish government, or its equivalent. Such pensions are now part of the cost within the meaning of the Bill of Irish services transferred to the Irish Government. Therefore, although the Transferred sum will be reduced by this amount, and the Irish Parliament will have less money by £2,000 or £3,000, on the other side the expenses that they would be called upon to bear in respect of Irish services will be reduced by an equivalent sum. The surplus of £500,000 at the outset, reducible after a certain number of years to £200,000, is a net surplus. There may be some small reductions, but these considerable sums are not reductions from the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government. 1160 Similarly the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment said that when the constabulary are transferred to the Irish Government, there will be an additional sum of about £400,000 to be deducted from the Transferred Sum in respect of the Irish Constabulary pensions. That is true. On the other hand, there would be that amount of £1,400,000, if the constabuary costs the same as now, to be added to the Transferred Sum in respect of the cost of the constabulary generally. As the Committee knows, when the service goes over to the Irish Government the money to pay for that service, which now has to be paid out of the Exchequer, will be added to the Transferred Sum, which will make that difference to the Imperial Treasury. What money is being paid out in respect to the constabulary will be handed over to the Irish Government when they take over the constabulary. If the cost of the constabulary is, say, £1,000,000 general expenses, and £400,000 for existing pensions, the Irish Government at the outset will receive £400,000, in a way saved on the pensions. They would receive it in the Transferred Sum to be added to the existing £1,400,000, and per contra the existing pensions, amounting to £400,000, will be deducted from the Transferred Sum, and so the Irish Exchequer would have in hand £1,000,000 to pay the wages, while the Imperial Exchequer would be debited, for the time being, with £400,000 to pay the pension list. I hope that that is clear. As the pensioners die off and new pensioners come on, so the deduction from the Transferred Sum will be less and the Transferred Sum proportionately increased.
The hon. Member asked how much the deductions would be. The Treasury have made a very careful inquiry as to the sums, and we have given the Committee all the information in our possession. As the hon. Member has said himself, there are certain duties in respect of which we have not given figures. It is not possible for any figures to be given by anyone, because there are deductions which will depend upon the future actions of the Irish Government. The Transferred Sum is to be reduced if the Irish Parliament repeals taxes. If they reduce one of the duties, and there is £100,000 loss to the Exchequer, the Transferred Sum will be reduced b5' £100,000. It will be obvious to the hon. Member that we cannot give any estimate now of what that sum may be. It must necessarily depend upon whether or not the Irish Parliament reduce taxes, and to 1161 what extent they will in the future reduce taxes. If they do not reduce taxes there would be no reduction in that. Similarly in regard to charges for loans. If the Irish Government raise a loan, and the interest on the Sinking Fund are secured on the Transferred Sum pro tanto, the Transferred Sum will be reduced—we cannot say how much, because we do not know whether the Irish Parliament will raise any loans, and to what extent. Further, in regard to any default in the payment of land purchased annuities. At present the default is extremely little. Last year the figure was £4,700, which is a remarkably creditable figure to the Irish purchasers under the Land Purchase Act, in which such large purchase sums are involved.
There is every reason to hope that the honesty which has distinguished the Irish peasantry for so long will not disappear under Home Rule, and that the deductions will not be considerable under this head. It is impossible for anyone to estimate what the deductions may be. I would point out under the head of Irish land purchase that the British taxpayer now has much better security than ever before against loss owing to the failure of the Irish peasantry to repay the sums due from them, because while now you are only allowed to make deductions on certain heads of revenue, which it would be difficult to make deductions from in the future, we have a lien upon the whole Irish Transferred Sum amounting to over £6,000,000 per year. Therefore it is obvious that the security of the British taxpayer from that point of view is very greatly increased. The Amendment of the hon. Member has given me the opportunity of making this statement. In itself it is only part of the Amendment, but, in the opinion of the draftsman, and in our opinion, the Amendment is not a good one. It merely has the effect of stating twice over what is already stated in the Bill. I hope the Committee therefore will not accept it.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThe speech of the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite evident to the Committee how grossly inadequate is the time at our disposal. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that this is only a drafting Amendment, but the time he has occupied in disposing of it is a very good index as to the character of the Amendments which we are prepared to suggest to this Clause of the Bill. Although it is quite true that in 1162 form it is merely a drafting Amendment, it raises a real point of substance, and one which I want to be present to the minds of the Committee. I will put it as shortly as I can. In this Bill there is a certain sum of money which is to be transferred to the Irish Parliament. It is the cost of running the transferred services in Ireland. In the Govenment's White Paper it is estimated that there will be a surplus for the Irish Parliament, so to speak, over the cost of these transferred services of, roughly speaking, half a million. The Transferred Sum is set out in the Government's White Paper at £6,127,000—to be strictly accurate. I want the Committee to realise that this is purely a book figure. It has no existence in fact, and never will have. The Transferred Sum is something quite different from the transferred cash. The transferred cash which is going to be handed over to the Irish Parliament is a very much less figure, a quite different figure from the £6,127,000. As a matter of fact, we now learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the sum of £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum as it stands in the first year—and remember that is the highest figure! That is with the inclusion of £500,000; not a diminished amount. The £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum in respect of those prior charges. That brings is to £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash.
What has the Irish Government got to put against that? Against that the Irish Government has got to spend £5,462,000 on the transferred services, and £246,000 to make up the loss on the Post Office. This is a total of £5,708,000 for Irish services. If you set that figure of £5,708,000 against the figure of £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash, as distinguished from the Transferred Sum, you get the surplus that the Irish Government will realise in the first financial year, as not the £500,000 set out m the Government's White Paper, but £39,000. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman said, "Oh, against that you have set savings which are effected in the cost of the Irish services." Yes, but that does not amount either to the whole or anything like the whole of these deductions, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that very well. In the matter of the deductions he took a single instance and compared the salary-or rather the pension, of an Irish judge. But there are several items in this sum which the right hon. Gentleman himself 1163 confessed in his closing sentences as not only having not been estimated by the Government, but he said they could not be estimated by the Government.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELAll those sums, amounting to £380,000, which the hon. Gentleman has deducted from one side, also go to the other side.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONAs to that I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think that that is so. I understood that the £380,000 includes superannuation and other allowances for the existing Irish unestablished Civil servants. He told us that that is being increased by £100,000. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that is an increase over the sum stated in the original figures which are given in the Government White Paper.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThere will be an increase on the other side of the account.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThen I think it is quite time that the Government issued an amended White Paper. It is quite time we had a clear statement as to how this amount is going to be spent because the right hon. Gentleman tells the Committee, at a time when there is no possibility of discussing it, that the Government have resolved to put down Amendments which will have the effect of increasing this deduction by £100,000, and he told us to take it from him ex cathedra that there is to be a corresponding reduction. I want to see the figures. The right hon. Gentleman has, of course, acknowledged that there are considerable reductions from the sums which have been estimated; and again, under Clause 17, Sub-section (2), there is possible deduction on account of the reduction of taxation by the Irish Parliament. There is deduction under Clause 18 in respect of land purchase, under Clause 23 in respect of loans, and under Clauses 35 and 37 in respect of the Irish Constabulary. All these are deductions which cannot be estimated at the present moment, because we have not got the figures, and I suggest that apart from the disgraceful injustice of asking us to discuss this matter in the circumstances under which we are labouring now, the Government ought to produce their figures at the earliest possible moment and in the clearest possible manner.
§ 10.0 P.M.
§ Mr. CHARLES CRAIGOf the few minutes remaining to us I desire only to monopolise two or three, to remind the Committee that the part of Ireland from which I come has not the slightest intention of accepting this Clause, either with or without this Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend behind me. [At this point cheers were raised by hon. Members as the result of the Bow and Bromley By-election became known.] I thought at first that the cheers which came from my hon. Friends behind me had reference to something I was saying, but I understand now they were due to something which has happened pleasing to those on this side of the House, but that has really very little bearing on the Amendment and still less on the Bill before the House. I only rose to say, with reference to this Amendment and to the whole Bill, what has often been said before by my colleagues and myself, that we in Ulster in no circumstances intend ever to take this Bill, but the disgraceful circumstances by which five Clauses are proposed to be pushed through the House in four or five minutes under an hour intensifies that determination a hundredfold to resist this Bill. I say the Government is behaving in a most disgraceful way. They promised us three hours for the discussion of five Clauses, but we get, as a matter of fact, less than one hour, and out of that the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has occupied sixteen or seventeen minutes. There are five Clauses for discussion and five or six pages of Amendments. I say if ever the Unionist party in this country were justified in its determined opposition to this Bill, and if ever we in Ulster were justified to have nothing to do with this Bill, and never to allow this Bill to take root in Ulster, we are justified a hundredfold by what has happened to-night.
§ Mr. CASSELIt has been contended that this is a drafting Amendment. I agree that it is, but a question of drafting may be extremely important, and may involve the question whether something is to be a first or second charge, and as many millions are involved in this matter I think we are at least entitled to the presence of one of the Law Officers of the Crown. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite will look at the Amendment he will see that he has not dealt with the point made by my right hon. Friend. The point made by my right hon. Friend was that 1165 under the Bill as drafted it is not clear—I think it is rather clear the other way—that the deductions have to be made before the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. The deductions under the Bill as drafted are only to be made after the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. You have to look, in the first place, to the definitions of the Transferred Sum under Clause 14. Clause 14 defines the sum as including three items mentioned in that Clause. Then you come to Clause 17, which says that "the Transferred Sum as so defined shall be paid over to the Irish Exchequer." It is quite true that Subsection (2) contains the provision about reducing the Transferred Sum. I quite agree that that reduction would have to be made before the Transferred Sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. That is quite true. Supposing it were £6,100,000, and the reduction to be made was £100,000, the sum to be paid to the Irish Exchequer is then £6,000,000, but we have an entirely different thing when we come to the deductions. When you come to the Clauses dealing with the deductions—for example, Clause 32—you find at the end of the Clause, Sub-section (1), these words:—
"All sums so paid shall be made good by means of the deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with the Regulations made by the Treasury."
The point my hon. Friend made is this, that you have this difference in language, and that the Courts will always consider that where the Legislature makes a difference in language they intend some difference. I quite agree that that may be a mistake on the part of the Courts, but the Courts always assume that when the Legislature expresses a thing in different language they intend some difference, so in one case the words occur that the Transferred Sum is to be reduced by a certain sum before you pay it over to the Irish Exchequer, but when once you pay it under Clause 16 you make a deduction under Clauses 32 and 33, and it is nowhere clear that these deductions have to be made before the sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. If I understood my hon. Friend aright, the point he wanted to bring forward is that these deductions should be made clear before and not after.
§ Mr. J. M. HENDERSONHow can you deduct it after?
§ Mr. CASSELIt would be perfectly easy to pay the constabulary out of it after 1166 the deduction. I do not say that is the intention of the Government, but they have unintentionally differentiated the language in the two Clauses in such a way that I think my hon. Friend was perfectly right in asking that this Amendment should be accepted, which makes a very important point clear. If you look at Clause 23, there again you have the words "requisite part of the Transferred Sum." Does the Transferred Sum mean before or after the deduction? If it was right that the deduction had to be made before you arrive at the Transferred Sum, the deduction would have to be made before you paid interest and sinking fund on the loan. I think the matter is left in doubt and obscurity, and I submit it would be only reasonable on the part of the Government to adopt a drafting Amendment, which cannot, in any event, do them any harm.
§ Sir E. CARSONI desire, in the first place, to enter my protest against the way in which we are being treated over these important Financial Clauses. Of course, I perfectly well understand, after what has happened during the last two or three days, that the Government are only anxious to reach half-past ten in order to get rid of the remaining Clauses which set up this ridiculous system of finance. I venture to think that in the whole history of Parliament we have never had such a grave public scandal as that which has happened to-night and is happening upon these Clauses. As regards these five Clauses, we are given from 9.20 to 10.30 to discuss them, and we should not even have had that time had it not been that the Government themselves refused to move their own Amendments for fear that the whole of the time allotted would be used up, and that no time would be left for saying one word about these five Clauses. Is that not reducing Parliamentary procedure to a farce? They tell us that they will move Amendments; they employ the draftsman, I suppose, to draft them and solemnly put them on the Paper, and then when the time comes for them to be moved they say, "We cannot move them, however necessary they may be, because we have allowed so little time by the guillotine that it would be demonstrating the farce we are asking to be carried out by the House if we did not, leave some little time for the process." Anything more aggravating to an Opposition it is impossible to imagine. In point of fact, the one thing the Government 1167 have tried to do ever since this Bill came into Committee is to try and aggravate the Opposition by the tyranny and cowardice they have shown in debate. I suppose they think it is a very brave thing to have the guillotine falling at 10.30 to night, because by reason of that they get rid of five very awkward and very important Clauses in this Bill. There is no act of bravery in it at all, for it is an act of pure cowardice. I should have thought that we had had enough of this kind of thing after the example of the Insurance Act last year. When the Insurance Act was being discussed the Government were warned over and over again—
§ The CHAIRMANI did not take objection to the right hon. Gentleman opening his remarks in the way he did, but he must not proceed in that way because that is not allowed by the order of the House, and he cannot go back.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWMay I remind you, Mr. Chairman, of a precedent last year when the Government were dealing with the Insurance Act in a way almost as scandalous as to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] On that occasion, when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair on Report, I made for a quarter of an hour precisely the same kind of speech as my right hon. Friend has made with the sanction of Mr. Speaker.
§ The CHAIRMANYes, I know that the Chair does allow a little latitude, but that latitude should not be abused. We are now in process of discussing an Amendment. As I said before, I did not interfere with the right hon. Gentleman until he was proceeding to discuss the action of the House in a preceding Session.
§ Sir E. CARSONConsidering the time we have got, it is impossible that anybody could be confined to the mere Amendment before the House, because it would be utterly futile. My experience of the guillotine in this House is that necessarily very great latitude has to be given, otherwise the questions which are put off from time to time would never be answered at all. We are told, "Wait till you come to Clause 17, 18, 19, or 20," and when we come to them, and when we come to the time allotted to them, we find that we cannot discuss any of them. How am I to deal with that situation? Do you not know, Mr. Whitley, as well as anybody 1168 else that it is scandalous? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order."] The truth of the matter is that we are coming to the end of Parliamentary government altogether. To-night demonstrates the wreckage of this House, the wreckage of debate in it, and the mere pantomime that goes on here when you are asked in these few minutes to discuss elaborate Clauses of this kind. I suppose that the Government have made up their minds to look upon this Bill as a reality, although from what has occurred from day to day I am inclined to doubt it; but if they do look upon it as a reality—and if the Bill comes into force next year or the year after, and so far as I am concerned the sooner the better, so that we can get to real work—I predict that what the Government will do will be to appoint Home Rule lecturers. This is the new style of legislation. It does not matter one bit whether any single individual in the House understands a line of this complicated finance or not. The Postmaster-General made a speech on what he said was merely a drafting Amendment, and I suppose he was in earnest when he said that. How long did he take to deal with the drafting Amendment? He took twenty minutes. I listened to him myself. The right hon. Gentleman generally makes a clear statement, and if the matter could be made clear it would be made clear by him. I must say, however, that a more complicated, involved and difficult statement to follow has never been placed before the House. If any hon. Member were honestly to get up and express his opinion on that statement, he would have to say that he did not understand one single word of what the Postmaster-General was talking about. That is the way we have to deal with a drafting Amendment.
What are all the other points which are not going to be discussed at all and which are not drafting Amendments? There is the difficulty of estimating the Irish taxes. In Clause 17 the 10 per cent. limit comes in and the whole question of adding to the Imperial taxes and the way it has to be done, and in this Clause the Joint Exchequer Board is set up. Nevertheless, we have not had a single discussion upon that subject. Then there are the credits to the Transferred Sum in respect to the transferred and reserved services, and we are not to have a word about them. Clause 18 deals with the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, Clause 19 deals with the Development Fund and the Road 1169 Improvement Grant, Clause 20 deals with the Irish Church Temporalities Fund, Clause 21 deals with the audit and the Irish Exchequer, and every one of these matters has to go without a single word. I suppose some time afterwards it will be solemnly said that this Bill passed the House of Commons. There are not twenty Members in the House of Commons who know any single fact in connection with these. Clauses, and they do not care. Their lives depend upon passing them; that is all they know, and so they pass them. This is not passing legislation by the House of Commons at all. It is passing legislation put forward by the Government, allocating time, not in proportion to the importance of the subject in hand, but to the political exigencies of a coalition majority. What does the Postmaster-General confess in relation to this matter? That he cannot tell us even now what are the charges upon the Transferred Sum. Here we are just going to pass this within a quarter of an hour and there is nobody who knows what the charges are and nobody can estimate them, and the right hon. Gentleman says by reason of Amendments put down by the Government there is a hundred thousand a year added to the sums that are to be taken from the Transferred Sum. A hundred thousand a year has never been discussed at all! What does it matter?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELWe have not reached the Clause.
§ Sir E. CARSON"We have not reached the Clause." Why, that is becoming as common in this House as the "Wait and see" period. I put it to the Government: Surely, if they are earnest over this Bill, when they find there is genuinely no time for discussing important provisions, there ought to be some way in which they are able to get over the Closure, and enable, at all events, the important matters in these Clauses to be discussed. Is there anybody in the Government at all who cares about these things? Where is the Prime Minister? Where was he yesterday? He was not here yesterday; he has not been here to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has voted in the Divisions."] This shows the extent of the demoralisation. An hon. Member opposite thinks that in an important case of this kind, the only duty the Prime Minister owes to the House is that he should be here in the Divisions. He ought to be here at a time when the House of Commons is really being wrecked by these means.
§ Mr. J. M. HENDERSONWhy does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman discuss the Amendment?
§ Sir E. CARSONDoes the hon. Gentleman think that is an interruption on a point of Order, or is it an interruption made just to suit his purpose? It does not very much matter. The hon. Gentleman knows very well you could not discuss this Amendment in the time. He only makes that exclamation for the sake of saying something—something which is not in the least relevant. Suppose at this moment you divide, and the House negatives these words, what then! The House knows perfectly well there is no time for any other Amendment. Look at the way in which the House is being treated. We are passing five important Clauses in an hour and five minutes, and the Prime Minister does not even come down here. They are financial Clauses, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here. Neither is the Chief Secretary here. All these right hon. Gentlemen are supposed to have some interest in this Bill, but presumably they have not been able to master the details of the fantastic provisions as explained in the clear statement of the Postmaster-General. For my part, these proceedings this evening have taken away any pretence about the reality of the Bill. I doubt if there is a single hon. Member who understands anything about these proposals, or who can translate the meaning of the Postmaster-General.
§ Mr. MOOREI am quite willing to give way to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson), who, judging from his interruptions, is quite capable of discussing the Amendment. But as he does not rise, I only want to make one very short observation indeed. I only want to point out that an Act of Parliament becomes an Act and carries weight with it in the country because it has the full sanction of full and free debate in the House. But the Government are passing this through without even this ordinary sanction. One Member of the Government at the last election—as a matter of Radical bluff on the hustings—said the Bill would be forced on the people of Ulster by British bayonets. Are you still going to force this Bill on Ulster people by British bayonets when you will not allow the representatives of the people to discuss a word of it? I shall be glad to give way to the Prime 1171 Minister, who has just entered the Chamber, if he wants to defend the action of the Government. The Prime Minister has not been in the House to-night to hear the arguments. I understand from one of his devoted followers that he has been in the Division Lobby. That is his idea of his duty to the House of Commons. Owing to his absence he probably does not know that under his precious time table, and in consequence of the Amendments put down by his colleagues on the Front Bench, we on this side of the Committee have been allowed one hour and ten minutes to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. I ask the Prime Minister whether he approves of that, or will he give us further time, which I think we are entitled to as a matter of reason, to discuss these Clauses? If he does not do so, they will go through without a word being said upon them.
Before the Prime Minister came in I was asking if, when five important Clauses of this Bill are thrust through without one word being said upon them, debate being prevented by the Government Amendments, it was an Act of Parliament which was going to be thrust by force upon a loyal section of the people of this country. I say the thing is so monstrous that I believe if the Prime Minister had been in full possession of the facts he would have got up, and, with the reasonableness which sometimes distinguishes
§ him, said that he would extend the timetable. I hope he will yet do it. This is a state of affairs which is the guillotine run mad. It is absolutely intolerable. As my right hon. Friend said just now, not half a dozen Members on the Government side can tell us what is the subject-matter of these five Clauses. They are perfectly satisfied as long as there is a sufficient number to attend in the Division Lobby, as the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) said. That is the whole duty of man. I ask, when you have Bills put through this House and transformed into Acts of Parliament by brute majorities, without debate, what sanction can they have? So far as I am concerned, I say here, what hundreds of loyal people have said at home, that if anything would add to our intention to resist this Bill by all the means in our power if ever, by a great disaster, it comes into operation, it is the events that have occurred to-night, and the fact that we have not been able to debate these Clauses. It is only part of the unfairness, the deliberate unfairness, of His Majesty's Government.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 314.
1175| Division No. 338.] | AYES. | [10.30 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Cave, George | Gardner, Ernest |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gastrell, Major W. H. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Gibbs, G. A. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Goldman, C. S. |
| Ashley, W. W. | Chambers, James | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Goulding, Edward Alfred |
| Baicarres, Lord | Clyde, J. Avon | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Gretton, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) |
| Banner, John S. Harmood- | Courthope, George Loyd | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |
| Barnston, Harry | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Haddock, George Bahr |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Craig, Captain James (Downe, E.) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Craik, Sir Henry | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Cripps, Sir C. A. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Croft, Henry Page | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Bigland, Alfred | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Bird, A. | Denniss, E. R. B. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Dixon, Charles Harvey | Henderson, Major H. (Berks) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Doughty, Sir George | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Boyton, James | Duke, Henry Edward | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Bull, Sir William James | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Fell, Arthur | Hills, John Waller |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hoare, S. J. G. |
| Campion, W. R. | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Hohler, G. F. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Fleming, Valentine | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Forster, Henry William | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Foster, Philip Staveley | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Moore, William | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Horner, A, L. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Stanier, Beville |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Mount, William Arthur | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Hunt, Rowland | Newdegate, F. A. | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Newman, John R. P. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Stewart, Gershom |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Jessel, Captain Herbert M. | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Swift, Rigby |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Kerry, Earl of | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Parkes, Ebenezer | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Touche, G. A. |
| Larmor, Sir J. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Lloyd, George Ambrose | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Remnant, James Farquharson | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rolleston, Sir John | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Rothschild, Lionel de | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Mackinder, H. J. | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Sanderson, Lancelot | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Younger, Sir George |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Goldsmith and Mr. Cassel. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Clough, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Clynes, J. R. | Glanville, Harold James |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Adamson, William | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Griffith, Ellis J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Cotton, William Francis | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Gulland, John William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Crooks, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Crumley, Patrick | Hackett, John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Cullinan, John | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hancock, John George |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol) | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dawes, J. A. | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithnese-shire) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | De Forest, Baron | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) |
| Barnes, George N. | Delany, William | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) |
| Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Barton, William | Devlin, Joseph | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Dickinson, W. H. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Dillon, John | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Donelan, Captain A. | Hayden, John Patrick |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Doris, W. | Hayward, Evan |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Duffy, William J. | Hazleton, Richard |
| Black, Arthur W. | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson |
| Boland, John Pius | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Henry, Sir Charles |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Elverston, Sir Harold | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) |
| Brace, William | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Higham, John Sharp |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Hinds, John |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Essex, Richard Walter | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Esslemont, George Birnie | Hodge, John |
| Buckmastcr, Stanley O. | Falconer, J. | Hogge, James Myles |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Farrell, James Patrick | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Ffrench, Peter | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Field, William | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Fitzgibbon, John | Hudson, Walter |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Hughes, S. L. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Chappie, Dr. W. A. | Gill, A. H. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Ginnell, L. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Neilson, Francis | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Jones, H Haydn (Merioneth) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Nolan, Joseph | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Nuttall, Harry | Scanian, Thomas |
| Jowett, Frederick William | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Doherty, Philip | Sheehy, David |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Donnell, Thomas | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Kilbride, Denis | Ogden, Fred | Shortt, Edward |
| King, J. | OGrady, James | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | O'Malley, William | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Snowden, Philip |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Leach, Charles | O'Shee, James John | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Outhwaite, R. L. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Sutherland, John E. |
| Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Sutton, John E. |
| Lundon, T. | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Taylor, John (W. (Durham) |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph (Rotherham) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Tennant, Harold John |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Thomas, J. H. |
| McGhee, Richard | Pirie, Duncan V. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J. | Pointer, Joseph | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Pollard, Sir George H. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Power, Patrick Joseph | Verney, Sir Harry |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Wadsworth, John |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| M'Kean, John | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wardle, George J. |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Waring, Walter |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Pringle, William M. R. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Manfield, Harry | Radford, G. H. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Webb, H. |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Meagher, Michael | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Reddy, M. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Menzies, Sir, Walter | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P. |
| Millar, James Duncan | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Molloy, M. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Molteno, Percy Alport | Rendall, Athelstan | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Mooney, John J. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Morgan, George Hay | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Morrell, Philip | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Morison, Hector | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Robinson, Sidney | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Muldoon, John | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | |
| Nannetti, Joseph | Roe, Sir Thomas | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Rowlands, James | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn, |
§ It being after half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's sitting.
1176§ Government Amendment: In Subsection (2), to leave out the word "financial" ["shall be reduced in each financial year"].—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 322; Noes, 217.
1177| Division No. 339.] | AYES. | [10.43 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Addison, Dr. C. | Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Agnew, Sir George William | Arnold, Sydney |
| Adamson, William | Ainsworth, John Stirling | Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Guest, Major Hon. C. H, C. (Pembroke) | Meagher, Michael |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Guest, Hon, Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Gulland, John W. | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Barnes, G. N. | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Barran, Sir John (Hawick) | Hackett, John | Molloy, M. |
| Barton, W. | Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Hancock, John George | Mond, Sir Alfred Morltz |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Bentham, G. J. | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mooney, John J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morrell, Philip |
| Black, Arthur W. | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morison, Hector |
| Boland, John Pius | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Muldoon, John |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Brace, William | Hayden, John Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Brady, P. J. | Hayward, Evan | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Brocklehurst, W, B. | Hazleton, Richard | Neilson, Francis |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Sir Charles | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nuttall, Harry |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hinds, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hodge, John | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hogge, James Myles | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Ogden, Fred |
| Chapple, Dr. William Alien | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Grady, James |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Clough, William | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Malloy, William |
| Clynes, J. R. | Hudson, Walter | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Shee, James John |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | John, Edward Thomas | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts. Rushcliffe) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jowett, Frederick William | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Joyce, Michael | Pirie, Duncan V. |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Delany, William | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | King, Joseph | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickdale) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Dillon, John | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Law, Huqh A. (Donegal, W.) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Doris, William | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Duffy, William J. | Leach, Charles | Radford, G. H. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Levy, Sir Maurice | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Lundon, Thomas | Reddy, Michael |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Falconer, J. | McGhee, Richard | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macpherson, James Ian | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Field, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Curdy, C. A. | Robinson, Sidney |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Kean, John | Roch, Walter F. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Gill, A. H. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Ginnell, L. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Gladstone, W G. C. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Rowlands, James |
| Glanville, H. J. | Manfield, Harry | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Martin, Joseph | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Tennant, Harold John | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Scanlan, Thomas | Thomas, J. H. | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wiles Thomas |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Toulmin, Sir George | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Sheehy, David | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Shortt, Edward | Verney, Sir Harry | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wadsworth, J. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Wardle, G. J. | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Snowden, Philip | Waring, Walter | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | |
| Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Webb, H. | |
| Sutherland, J. E. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Sutton, John E. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Taylor, John W. (Durham) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Duke, Henry Edward | Lane-Fox, G. R. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Fell, Arthur | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Ashley, W. W. | Finlay Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Lloyd, George Ambrose |
| Astor, Wardort | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Baird, J. L. | Fleming, Valentine | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Foster, Philip Staveley | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gardner, Ernest | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee |
| Barnston, Harry | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gibbs, G. A. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Goldman, C. S. | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Goldsmith, Frank | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Mackinder, Halford J. |
| Bonn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Macmaster, Donald |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Goulding, Edward Alfred | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Greene, Walter Raymond | Magnus, Sir Philip |
| Bigland, Alfred | Gretton, John | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. |
| Bird, A. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Middlemore, John Throgmorton |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Haddock, George Bahr | Moore, William |
| Boyton, J. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Mount, William Arthur |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hamersley, A. St. George | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Campion, William Robert | Harris, Henry Percy | Nield, Herbert |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Helmsley, Viscount | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Cassel, Felix | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. W. A. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Cave, George | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hill, Sir Clement | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hills, J. W. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Chambers, James | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hoare, S. J. G. | Pollock, E. M. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hohler, G. F. | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Horner, A. L. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hunt, Rowland | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Ingleby, Holcombe | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cripps, Sir C. A. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Croft, H. P. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. | Kerry, Earl of | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Kimber, Sir Henry | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) |
| Doughty, Sir George | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Spear, Sir John Ward | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) | Winterton, Earl |
| Stanier, Beville | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Thynne, Lord Alexander | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Starkey, John R. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Staveley-Hill, Henry | Touche, George Alexander | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Steel-Maitland, A. D. | Tryon, Captain George Clement | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Stewart, Gershom | Tullibardine, Marquess of | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) | Valentia, Viscount | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Swift, Rigby | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) | Younger, Sir George |
| Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) | |
| Talbot, Lord E. | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) | Wills, Sir Gilbert | Walrond and Mr. Kerr-Smiley. |
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
1182§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 323; Noes, 220.
1185| Division No. 340.] | AYES. | [10.52 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hodge, John |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, s.) | Hogge, James Myles |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Dawes, J. A. | Holmes, Daniel Turner |
| Adamson, William | De Forest, Baron | Holt, Richard Durning |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Delany, William | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Devlin, Joseph | Hudson, Waiter |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Dickinson, W. H. | Hughes, Spencer Leigh |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Dillon, John | Illingworth, Percy H. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Donelan, Captain A. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus |
| Arnold, Sydney | Doris, William | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Duffy, William J. | John, Edward Thomas |
| Baker, H. T, (Accrington) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Elverston, Sir Harold | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Barnes, George N. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Jowett, Frederick William |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Essex, Richard Walter | Joyce, Michael |
| Barton, William | Esslemont, George Birnie | Keating, Matthew |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Falconer, James | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Farrell, James Patrick | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Kilbride, Denis |
| Bentham, G. J. | Ffrench, Peter | King, J. |
| Bethell, Sir John Henry | Field, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickiade) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Fitzgibbon, John | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Boland, John Pius | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Gill, A. H. | Leach, Charles |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Ginnell, Laurence | Levy, Sir Maurice |
| Brace, William | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Brady, P. J. | Glanville, H. J. | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Lundon, T. |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Griffith, Ellis Jones | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester) |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Gulland, John W. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney A, (Poplar) | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | McGhee, Richard |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hackett, J. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hancock, J. G. | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Chancellor, Henry George | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | M'Kean, John |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Clough, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Clynes, John R. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Manfield, Harry |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Hayden, John Patrick | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hayward, Evan | Martin, J. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hazleton, Richard | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Meagher, Michael |
| Crooks, William | Henry, Sir Charles | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Cullinan, J. | Higham, John Sharp | Millar, James Duncan |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Hinds, John | Molloy, Michael |
| Davies, Ellis William (Elfion) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Money, L. G. Chiozza | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Mooney, John J. | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Morgan, George Hay | Primrose, Hon. Neill James | Sutton, John E. |
| Worrell, Philip | Pringle, William M. R. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Morison, Hector | Radford, G. H. | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Rattan, Peter Wilson | Tennant, Harold John |
| Muldoon, John | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry | Thomas, J. H. |
| Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C. | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Nannetti, Joseph P. | Reddy, Michael | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Needham, Christopher T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Neilson, Francis | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Nolan, Joseph | Rendall, Atheistan | Wadsworth, John |
| Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Nuttall, Harry | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Wardle, George J. |
| O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Waring, Walter |
| O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| O'Doherty, Philip | Robinson, Sidney | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| O'Donnell, Thomas | Roch, Walter F. | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Ogden, Fred | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Webb, H. |
| O'Grady, James | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Roe, Sir Thomas | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Rowlands, James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| O'Malley, William | Rowntree, Arnold | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Whyte, A. F. |
| O'Shee, James John | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Wiles, Thomas |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Outhwaite, R. L. | Scanlan, Thomas | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Sheehy, David | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Pease, Robert Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Sherwell, Arthur James | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Shortt, Edward | Winfrey, Richard |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Pirie, Duncan Vernon | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Pointer, Joseph | Smith, H. B. (Northampton) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Pollard, Sir George H. | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Snowden, P. | |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | G. Howard and Captain Guest |
| NOES. | ||
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Cassel, Felix | Forster, Henry William |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Castlereagh, Viscount | Foster, Philip Staveley |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Cave, George | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Gibbs, George Abraham |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Goldman, C. S. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Goldsmith, Frank |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Chambers, James | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) |
| Astor, Waldorf | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Goulding, Edward, Alfred |
| Balcarres, Lord | Clyde, J. Avon | Greene, Walter Raymond |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Gretton, John |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) |
| Barnston, Harry | Courthope, George Loyd | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Gwynne, R. S. (Eastbourne) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Haddock, George Bahr |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Craik, Sir Henry | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hamersley, Alfred St. George |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Croft, Henry Page | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Bird, Alfred | Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Denniss, E. R. B. | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Dixon, Charles Harvey | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Boyton, J. | Doughty, Sir George | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Duke, Henry Edward | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hickman Col. Thomas E. |
| Butcher, John George | Fell, Arthur | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Hills, John Waller |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hill-Wood, Samuel |
| Campion, W. R. | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Heare, S. J. G. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Fleming, Valentine | Hohler, G. F. |
| Hope, Harry (Bute) | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Moore, William | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Mount, William Arthur | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Horner, Andrew Long | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Houston, Robert Paterson | Newdegate, F. A. | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Newman, John R. P. | Swift, Rigby |
| Hunt, Rowland | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Ingleby, Holcombe | Nield, Herbert | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, S.) | Norton-Griffiths, J. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Jessel, Capt. H. M. | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Orde-Powlett, W. G. A. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Kerry, Earl of | Parkes, Ebenezer | Touche, George Alexander |
| Kimber, Sir Henry | Pease, Herbert (Pike (Darlington) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Peto, Basil Edward | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Lane-Fox, G. R. | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Larmor, Sir J. | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Lewisham, Viscount | Remnant, James F. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Lloyd, G. A. | Roberts, s. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Rolleston, Sir John | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Rothschild, Lionel de | Winterton, Earl |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Salter, Arthur Clavell | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Sanderson, Lancelot | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Mackinder, Halford J. | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Macmaster, Donald | Scott, Leslie (Liverpol, Exchange) | Yerburgh, Robert A |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) | Younger, Sir George |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pl., Walton) | |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Spear, Sir John Ward | H. Carlile and Mr. E. Gardner. |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Stanier, Beville |