HC Deb 26 November 1912 vol 44 cc1151-85

(1) The Transferred Sum shall be paid to the Irish Exchequer at such times and in such manner and according to such regulations as the Joint Exchequer Board may direct.

(2) In the event of the reduction or discontinuance of any Imperial tax by the Irish Parliament, the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each financial year by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the amount by which the proceeds of the tax are diminished in that year in consequence of the reduction or discontinuance.

(3) In in any financial year the proceeds of any Irish tax imposed as an addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, exceed one-tenth of the proceeds in Ireland of that duty as levied as an Imperial tax for the same period, the amount of the excess shall not be treated for the purposes of this Act as part of the proceeds of the Irish tax, and the amount payable to the Irish Exchequer in respect of the proceeds of the Irish tax shall be reduced accordingly:

Provided that—

  1. (a) For the purposes of this provision, the proceeds of any tax shall be deemed to be the proceeds as determined by the Joint Exchequer Board: and
  2. (b) The foregoing provision shall not apply in cases where the excess is solely due to the reduction of the rate of the Imperial tax.

(4) When any reserved service is transferred from the Government of the United Kingdom to the Government of Ireland, the Transferred Sum shall be increased by such sum as may be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board to represent the equivalent of any saving to the Exchequer of the United Kingdom by reason of the transfer, and in determining that equivalent regard shall be had to the prospect of any increase or decrease in the cost of that service which may be expected to arise from causes not being matters of administration.

The sum by which the Transferred Sum is to be increased in pursuance of this provision may be fixed by the Joint Exchequer Board so as to vary during the first ten years after the transfer, but subject thereto shall be a definite sum.

Captain CRAIG

On a point of Order. Can you tell us, Sir, exactly how many Clauses have to be passed under the guillotine in the next hour and a half? [An HON. MEMBEK: "An hour and eight minutes."]


I do not think that is a point of Order; at any rate, it does not now arise.

Captain CRAIG

Is it not necessary that we should know how we can allocate this hour in order to get the best possible results?


That is not a point of Order. Under the Order of the House a time-table is set up and must be carried through.


May I ask whether it is within your cognisance at the time the guillotine falls what the Question to be put will be?


If a point of Order arises at 10.30 it will be dealt with by whoever is in the Chair. If it arises when I am here I am quite prepared to deal with it at that time.


I beg to move, in Sub-section (l), at the beginning, to insert the words, "After deducting from the Transferred Sum any charges which, pursuant to this Act, are to be, or may be, made on the Transferred Sum, the balance of."

In moving this Amendment, I desire to protest against the absurdly short time which is left to us to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. The guillotine falls at 10.30, and we have got just over an hour to discuss all five Clauses, which are of the greatest importance, and which I think the Committee—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hurry up."]


Hurry up yourselves.

Captain CRAIG

We have only a few minutes, and you keep shouting like a lot of jackals. If you want trouble, ask for it.


We have a very short time in which to discuss these Clauses, and I hope lion. Members opposite will give us an opportunity in the very short time that remains to us to debate them. I am absolutely certain that nearly the whole of these five Clauses will be passed without discussion and without a word having been said either in favour of or against the proposals which they contain. I maintain that it is really reducing the proceedings to farce and absurdity to ask us to discuss the whole of these Clauses and five and a half pages of Amendments in the time allotted to us this evening. The object of the Amendment which I am moving is to make it absolutely clear that certain deductions have to be made from the Transferred Sum before that sum is transferred to the Irish Exchequer. If my Amendment is accepted, the amended Clause will not add a single penny to the deductions which will be made by the Imperial Exchequer, nor will it take a single penny from the sum which the Irish Exchequer will receive. We are only making absolutely clear that the Transferred Sum is not exactly the same as the actual cash payment which the Irish Exchequer is going to receive. It will show that certain deductions have to be made and that the payments which have to be made under the provisions of the Bill will form the first charge upon the Transferred Sum and the first charge upon the sum which would stand to the credit of the Irish Exchequer, and until those deductions have been made nothing could be paid to the Irish Exchequer. The Irish Exchequer with regard to this sum is nearly in the same position as a deposit contributor under the National Insurance Act. A deposit contributor under that Act has certain sums standing to his credit at the Post Office consisting of his own and his employer's contributions, and the contributions of the State, but he cannot draw the whole of the amount which stands to his credit as certain deductions have to be made and certain charges have to be met, for instance, for medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and management expenses. I say that the Irish Exchequer is really in exactly the same position. They cannot draw the whole of the cash amount which stands to their credit until certain charges have been met. There is one very important difference in their case, and that is that the Irish Government can draw £2,000,000 more benefit than the Irish people have actually paid for. That is different from the case of the deposit contributor.

The Transferred Sum consists in the first place of the Irish services, that is to say, the cost of the Irish services or the actual amount which has been saved to the Imperial Exchequer by the transfer of those services. In the second place it consists of the subsidy of £500,000 which eventually will be reduced to £200,000, and further consists of any reserve services which subsequently may be transferred to the Irish Parliament. I believe it is the intention of the Government that those deductions should be made first, and that the sum should then be paid ever to the Irish Exchequer. That is by no means clear in the Bill, and I understand that the opinion prevails very largely that this sum is going to be paid over to the Irish Exchequer, and then subsequently the Imperial Government can send in its claim to the Irish Government for the cost of the services which are to be paid by the Irish Government to the Imperial Government. If my Amendment is accepted it will be perfectly clear that those deductions will have to be made first. I should like to point out that a very large number of prior charges have to be made under the Bill. For instance, under Clause 18 all charges under the Land Purchase Acts which now fall on the guarantee fund will come out of this Transferred Sum. Under Clause 20 all existing charges on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. Under Clause 31, £5,000 will have to be contributed out of this fund towards the salary of the Lord Lieutenant. Under Clause 32 it is provided that the pension and salary of the existing judges and Civil servants, and the superannuation and other allowances of unestablished Civil servants shall be paid out of this Transferred Sum. Clause 23 provides that if a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament on the Transferred Sum, a sum shall be deducted representing the cost of management sinking fund and interest.

The Committee ought to remember that after six years, when the Irish Constabulary is transferred to the Irish Government, an increased deduction will have to be made for the pension of the Constabulary. I think we were told the other day that that deduction will amount to no less than £400,000. Another deduction is not only possible, but probable. When the Irish Parliament reduces or discontinues a tax, the loss which that reduction or discontinuance involves will also be deducted from the Transferred Sum. At the present moment we have not got really any knowledge and we have not been told to what amount that Transferred Sum will really come. I maintain we ought to know not only what the deductions are going to be, but the actual amount of the cash balance which is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. At present this Transferred Sum is to amount to £6,100,000. The Prime Minister told us the other day that a certain number of these deductions amounted to £300,000. That is to say, £5,800,000 is going to be handed over to the Irish Exchequer. In six years you are going to add £400,000 to that. Therefore the amount of the deduction which we know of in six years time will amount to £700,000, so that instead of handing over £7,300,000, which would be the sum at that time, the amount which you are actually going to hand over of cash, totals only £6,600,000. I have only up to the present been dealing with deductions which we know of, that is to say those which the Prime Minister mentioned in answer to questions the other day. There are certain other deductions which will be made, and which we cannot possibly estimate at the present moment. Deductions will have to be made when a tax is reduced by the Irish Parliament, and deductions will have to be made when land annuities are not paid, and deduc- tions will have to be made when a loan is raised by the Irish Parliament. We have no information, and we cannot tell at the present moment what will be the actual sum handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is necessary that we should make it perfectly clear in the Bill that these deductions have to be made before the Transferred Sum is handed over to the Irish Parliament. It is all the more necessary because in the Bill of 1893 the whole of the charges which were to be made on the Irish Consolidated Fund were collected into one Clause. Clause 14 of the Bill of 1893 said:—

"There shall be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund in favour of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom as a first charge on that fund all such sums which—"

and then comes a list of the sums which have to be charged on the Irish Consolidated Fund. By this proposal we should obtain practically the same result. I hope the Government will accept the Amendment, because, after all, it only expresses what they have often told us is their intention.


The hon. Member, by his speech, has made perfectly apparent to the Committee the object he has in view. He stated at the outset of his remarks that the Amendment, if inserted, would, as a matter of fact, make no difference at all to the finances, neither adding anything to nor deducting anything from the sum payable to the Irish Parliament; and that, in fact, it was nothing more than a drafting Amendment. In our opinion it is not an improvement on the present drafting, for reasons which I shall give. In the first instance, I must quarrel with the hon. Member on one point. He made a comparison between our proposals with regard to deductions from the Transferred Sum and the position of a deposit contributor under the Insurance Act. He said that there was this difference, that while the deposit contributor gets the sums he has paid in, the Irish Government will receive in the Transferred Sum £2,000,000 benefit more than they have paid for. That is not so, if he takes into account all the expenditure upon Irish purposes. In the Transferred Sum and in the reserved services it is true there is a margin of £2,000,000 which Irish taxes do not pay for. But if he is dealing with the Transferred Sum, and that is the purpose of his Amendment, the case is just the opposite. Irishmen will be paying £3,000,000 more than they will get back in the Transferred Sum, because Irish taxes amount to over £9,000,000 and the Transferred Sum to only £6,000,000, every penny of which will consist of Irish money. There is nothing in the Transferred Sum from the British taxpayer's pocket at all.

It is a point of importance, because we are often told that the Irish Parliament will have at their disposal a great deal of British money over which we have no control. I am pointing out, as I pointed out on the First Heading of the Bill, that as far as the Transferred Sum is concerned it might more correctly be termed a re-transferred sum, and we might have adopted machinery for the payment of it direct into the Irish Exchequer instead of its coming to our Exchequer first and then being repaid to Dublin. The hon. Member says that our intention that certain sums should be deducted from the Transferred Sum before it is paid over is not made clear in the Bill. But he himself read several Clauses dealing with this point, and pointed out that Clause by Clause the Bill does distinctly in terms provide that certain sums shall be deducted from the Transferred Sum. For instance, Clause 17 (2) says that if the Irish Parliament reduces taxation the Transferred Sum shall be reduced in each year by such sum as may be determined to represent the amount of the loss through that reduction of taxation. Clause 18 states that if there is a failure in the payment of land purchase annuities such arrears which would under the Land Purchase Acts have been made good out of the Guarantee Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act. Clause 20 provides that the deficit on the Irish Church Temporalities Fund shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum. And so in each Clause through the Bill it is made clear beyond all possibility of mistake under what heads sums are to be deducted from the Transferred Sum. The hon. Member said that we ought to have followed the Bill of 1893 and collected all these matters into one Clause. The Bill of 1893 proceeded on different principles. There the taxes were paid into an Irish fund and special provision had to be made in a special Clause, for, so to speak, taking away from the control of Irish Departments certain sums which were to be deducted from them. We proceed on a different principle, and the same necessity does not arise. Even if the Amendment were accepted, it would not have the effect which the hon. Member desires, because it would merely be stated in this one Clause that the Transferred Sum was to be paid over, subject to certain deductions, but it would not bring together into one Clause, as the hon. Member desires the various deductions which would have to be made.

Perhaps this is a convenient opportunity for stating very briefly how the position stands with regard to these deductions. The Prime Minister, a few days ago, gave an answer to an hon. Member opposite in which he stated, so far as can now be ascertained, what these deductions would be under the Bill as it stands. There are certain Amendments in the name of my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary which will increase by about £100,000 certain charges for the benefit of Irish Civil servants who may retire under the Bill. They will make the sum £380,000 instead of £280,000. But that amount is problematical, because we do not really know how many Civil servants will retire. That, however, is the Treasury Estimate. I ought to point out that this does not mean that the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government will be reduced by £280,000 or £380,000. Not at all; because these deductions come off both sides of the account. Let me give an instance. Take, for example, the pension of an Irish judge—which is charged on the Consolidated Fund, and will be secured on the Transferred Sum paid by the Treasury here and deducted from the Transferred Sum. It is true that the Transferred Sum will be reduced by £2,000, or whatever it may be; but, on the other side of the account, the judge's pension is part of the existing cost of Irish government, or its equivalent. Such pensions are now part of the cost within the meaning of the Bill of Irish services transferred to the Irish Government. Therefore, although the Transferred sum will be reduced by this amount, and the Irish Parliament will have less money by £2,000 or £3,000, on the other side the expenses that they would be called upon to bear in respect of Irish services will be reduced by an equivalent sum. The surplus of £500,000 at the outset, reducible after a certain number of years to £200,000, is a net surplus. There may be some small reductions, but these considerable sums are not reductions from the surplus in the hands of the Irish Government. Similarly the hon. Gentleman who moved this Amendment said that when the constabulary are transferred to the Irish Government, there will be an additional sum of about £400,000 to be deducted from the Transferred Sum in respect of the Irish Constabulary pensions. That is true. On the other hand, there would be that amount of £1,400,000, if the constabuary costs the same as now, to be added to the Transferred Sum in respect of the cost of the constabulary generally. As the Committee knows, when the service goes over to the Irish Government the money to pay for that service, which now has to be paid out of the Exchequer, will be added to the Transferred Sum, which will make that difference to the Imperial Treasury. What money is being paid out in respect to the constabulary will be handed over to the Irish Government when they take over the constabulary. If the cost of the constabulary is, say, £1,000,000 general expenses, and £400,000 for existing pensions, the Irish Government at the outset will receive £400,000, in a way saved on the pensions. They would receive it in the Transferred Sum to be added to the existing £1,400,000, and per contra the existing pensions, amounting to £400,000, will be deducted from the Transferred Sum, and so the Irish Exchequer would have in hand £1,000,000 to pay the wages, while the Imperial Exchequer would be debited, for the time being, with £400,000 to pay the pension list. I hope that that is clear. As the pensioners die off and new pensioners come on, so the deduction from the Transferred Sum will be less and the Transferred Sum proportionately increased.

The hon. Member asked how much the deductions would be. The Treasury have made a very careful inquiry as to the sums, and we have given the Committee all the information in our possession. As the hon. Member has said himself, there are certain duties in respect of which we have not given figures. It is not possible for any figures to be given by anyone, because there are deductions which will depend upon the future actions of the Irish Government. The Transferred Sum is to be reduced if the Irish Parliament repeals taxes. If they reduce one of the duties, and there is £100,000 loss to the Exchequer, the Transferred Sum will be reduced b5' £100,000. It will be obvious to the hon. Member that we cannot give any estimate now of what that sum may be. It must necessarily depend upon whether or not the Irish Parliament reduce taxes, and to what extent they will in the future reduce taxes. If they do not reduce taxes there would be no reduction in that. Similarly in regard to charges for loans. If the Irish Government raise a loan, and the interest on the Sinking Fund are secured on the Transferred Sum pro tanto, the Transferred Sum will be reduced—we cannot say how much, because we do not know whether the Irish Parliament will raise any loans, and to what extent. Further, in regard to any default in the payment of land purchased annuities. At present the default is extremely little. Last year the figure was £4,700, which is a remarkably creditable figure to the Irish purchasers under the Land Purchase Act, in which such large purchase sums are involved.

There is every reason to hope that the honesty which has distinguished the Irish peasantry for so long will not disappear under Home Rule, and that the deductions will not be considerable under this head. It is impossible for anyone to estimate what the deductions may be. I would point out under the head of Irish land purchase that the British taxpayer now has much better security than ever before against loss owing to the failure of the Irish peasantry to repay the sums due from them, because while now you are only allowed to make deductions on certain heads of revenue, which it would be difficult to make deductions from in the future, we have a lien upon the whole Irish Transferred Sum amounting to over £6,000,000 per year. Therefore it is obvious that the security of the British taxpayer from that point of view is very greatly increased. The Amendment of the hon. Member has given me the opportunity of making this statement. In itself it is only part of the Amendment, but, in the opinion of the draftsman, and in our opinion, the Amendment is not a good one. It merely has the effect of stating twice over what is already stated in the Bill. I hope the Committee therefore will not accept it.


The speech of the right hon. Gentleman has made it quite evident to the Committee how grossly inadequate is the time at our disposal. The right hon. Gentleman has stated that this is only a drafting Amendment, but the time he has occupied in disposing of it is a very good index as to the character of the Amendments which we are prepared to suggest to this Clause of the Bill. Although it is quite true that in form it is merely a drafting Amendment, it raises a real point of substance, and one which I want to be present to the minds of the Committee. I will put it as shortly as I can. In this Bill there is a certain sum of money which is to be transferred to the Irish Parliament. It is the cost of running the transferred services in Ireland. In the Govenment's White Paper it is estimated that there will be a surplus for the Irish Parliament, so to speak, over the cost of these transferred services of, roughly speaking, half a million. The Transferred Sum is set out in the Government's White Paper at £6,127,000—to be strictly accurate. I want the Committee to realise that this is purely a book figure. It has no existence in fact, and never will have. The Transferred Sum is something quite different from the transferred cash. The transferred cash which is going to be handed over to the Irish Parliament is a very much less figure, a quite different figure from the £6,127,000. As a matter of fact, we now learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the sum of £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum as it stands in the first year—and remember that is the highest figure! That is with the inclusion of £500,000; not a diminished amount. The £380,000 is to be deducted from that Transferred Sum in respect of those prior charges. That brings is to £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash.

What has the Irish Government got to put against that? Against that the Irish Government has got to spend £5,462,000 on the transferred services, and £246,000 to make up the loss on the Post Office. This is a total of £5,708,000 for Irish services. If you set that figure of £5,708,000 against the figure of £5,747,000, which is the amount of the transferred cash, as distinguished from the Transferred Sum, you get the surplus that the Irish Government will realise in the first financial year, as not the £500,000 set out m the Government's White Paper, but £39,000. It is true that the right hon. Gentleman said, "Oh, against that you have set savings which are effected in the cost of the Irish services." Yes, but that does not amount either to the whole or anything like the whole of these deductions, and the right hon. Gentleman knows that very well. In the matter of the deductions he took a single instance and compared the salary-or rather the pension, of an Irish judge. But there are several items in this sum which the right hon. Gentleman himself confessed in his closing sentences as not only having not been estimated by the Government, but he said they could not be estimated by the Government.


All those sums, amounting to £380,000, which the hon. Gentleman has deducted from one side, also go to the other side.


As to that I join issue with the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think that that is so. I understood that the £380,000 includes superannuation and other allowances for the existing Irish unestablished Civil servants. He told us that that is being increased by £100,000. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that is an increase over the sum stated in the original figures which are given in the Government White Paper.


There will be an increase on the other side of the account.


Then I think it is quite time that the Government issued an amended White Paper. It is quite time we had a clear statement as to how this amount is going to be spent because the right hon. Gentleman tells the Committee, at a time when there is no possibility of discussing it, that the Government have resolved to put down Amendments which will have the effect of increasing this deduction by £100,000, and he told us to take it from him ex cathedra that there is to be a corresponding reduction. I want to see the figures. The right hon. Gentleman has, of course, acknowledged that there are considerable reductions from the sums which have been estimated; and again, under Clause 17, Sub-section (2), there is possible deduction on account of the reduction of taxation by the Irish Parliament. There is deduction under Clause 18 in respect of land purchase, under Clause 23 in respect of loans, and under Clauses 35 and 37 in respect of the Irish Constabulary. All these are deductions which cannot be estimated at the present moment, because we have not got the figures, and I suggest that apart from the disgraceful injustice of asking us to discuss this matter in the circumstances under which we are labouring now, the Government ought to produce their figures at the earliest possible moment and in the clearest possible manner.

10.0 P.M.


Of the few minutes remaining to us I desire only to monopolise two or three, to remind the Committee that the part of Ireland from which I come has not the slightest intention of accepting this Clause, either with or without this Amendment proposed by my hon. Friend behind me. [At this point cheers were raised by hon. Members as the result of the Bow and Bromley By-election became known.] I thought at first that the cheers which came from my hon. Friends behind me had reference to something I was saying, but I understand now they were due to something which has happened pleasing to those on this side of the House, but that has really very little bearing on the Amendment and still less on the Bill before the House. I only rose to say, with reference to this Amendment and to the whole Bill, what has often been said before by my colleagues and myself, that we in Ulster in no circumstances intend ever to take this Bill, but the disgraceful circumstances by which five Clauses are proposed to be pushed through the House in four or five minutes under an hour intensifies that determination a hundredfold to resist this Bill. I say the Government is behaving in a most disgraceful way. They promised us three hours for the discussion of five Clauses, but we get, as a matter of fact, less than one hour, and out of that the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has occupied sixteen or seventeen minutes. There are five Clauses for discussion and five or six pages of Amendments. I say if ever the Unionist party in this country were justified in its determined opposition to this Bill, and if ever we in Ulster were justified to have nothing to do with this Bill, and never to allow this Bill to take root in Ulster, we are justified a hundredfold by what has happened to-night.


It has been contended that this is a drafting Amendment. I agree that it is, but a question of drafting may be extremely important, and may involve the question whether something is to be a first or second charge, and as many millions are involved in this matter I think we are at least entitled to the presence of one of the Law Officers of the Crown. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite will look at the Amendment he will see that he has not dealt with the point made by my right hon. Friend. The point made by my right hon. Friend was that under the Bill as drafted it is not clear—I think it is rather clear the other way—that the deductions have to be made before the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. The deductions under the Bill as drafted are only to be made after the sum is paid to the Irish Exchequer. You have to look, in the first place, to the definitions of the Transferred Sum under Clause 14. Clause 14 defines the sum as including three items mentioned in that Clause. Then you come to Clause 17, which says that "the Transferred Sum as so defined shall be paid over to the Irish Exchequer." It is quite true that Subsection (2) contains the provision about reducing the Transferred Sum. I quite agree that that reduction would have to be made before the Transferred Sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. That is quite true. Supposing it were £6,100,000, and the reduction to be made was £100,000, the sum to be paid to the Irish Exchequer is then £6,000,000, but we have an entirely different thing when we come to the deductions. When you come to the Clauses dealing with the deductions—for example, Clause 32—you find at the end of the Clause, Sub-section (1), these words:—

"All sums so paid shall be made good by means of the deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with the Regulations made by the Treasury."

The point my hon. Friend made is this, that you have this difference in language, and that the Courts will always consider that where the Legislature makes a difference in language they intend some difference. I quite agree that that may be a mistake on the part of the Courts, but the Courts always assume that when the Legislature expresses a thing in different language they intend some difference, so in one case the words occur that the Transferred Sum is to be reduced by a certain sum before you pay it over to the Irish Exchequer, but when once you pay it under Clause 16 you make a deduction under Clauses 32 and 33, and it is nowhere clear that these deductions have to be made before the sum is paid over to the Irish Exchequer. If I understood my hon. Friend aright, the point he wanted to bring forward is that these deductions should be made clear before and not after.


How can you deduct it after?


It would be perfectly easy to pay the constabulary out of it after the deduction. I do not say that is the intention of the Government, but they have unintentionally differentiated the language in the two Clauses in such a way that I think my hon. Friend was perfectly right in asking that this Amendment should be accepted, which makes a very important point clear. If you look at Clause 23, there again you have the words "requisite part of the Transferred Sum." Does the Transferred Sum mean before or after the deduction? If it was right that the deduction had to be made before you arrive at the Transferred Sum, the deduction would have to be made before you paid interest and sinking fund on the loan. I think the matter is left in doubt and obscurity, and I submit it would be only reasonable on the part of the Government to adopt a drafting Amendment, which cannot, in any event, do them any harm.


I desire, in the first place, to enter my protest against the way in which we are being treated over these important Financial Clauses. Of course, I perfectly well understand, after what has happened during the last two or three days, that the Government are only anxious to reach half-past ten in order to get rid of the remaining Clauses which set up this ridiculous system of finance. I venture to think that in the whole history of Parliament we have never had such a grave public scandal as that which has happened to-night and is happening upon these Clauses. As regards these five Clauses, we are given from 9.20 to 10.30 to discuss them, and we should not even have had that time had it not been that the Government themselves refused to move their own Amendments for fear that the whole of the time allotted would be used up, and that no time would be left for saying one word about these five Clauses. Is that not reducing Parliamentary procedure to a farce? They tell us that they will move Amendments; they employ the draftsman, I suppose, to draft them and solemnly put them on the Paper, and then when the time comes for them to be moved they say, "We cannot move them, however necessary they may be, because we have allowed so little time by the guillotine that it would be demonstrating the farce we are asking to be carried out by the House if we did not, leave some little time for the process." Anything more aggravating to an Opposition it is impossible to imagine. In point of fact, the one thing the Government have tried to do ever since this Bill came into Committee is to try and aggravate the Opposition by the tyranny and cowardice they have shown in debate. I suppose they think it is a very brave thing to have the guillotine falling at 10.30 to night, because by reason of that they get rid of five very awkward and very important Clauses in this Bill. There is no act of bravery in it at all, for it is an act of pure cowardice. I should have thought that we had had enough of this kind of thing after the example of the Insurance Act last year. When the Insurance Act was being discussed the Government were warned over and over again—


I did not take objection to the right hon. Gentleman opening his remarks in the way he did, but he must not proceed in that way because that is not allowed by the order of the House, and he cannot go back.


May I remind you, Mr. Chairman, of a precedent last year when the Government were dealing with the Insurance Act in a way almost as scandalous as to-night. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order."] On that occasion, when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair on Report, I made for a quarter of an hour precisely the same kind of speech as my right hon. Friend has made with the sanction of Mr. Speaker.


Yes, I know that the Chair does allow a little latitude, but that latitude should not be abused. We are now in process of discussing an Amendment. As I said before, I did not interfere with the right hon. Gentleman until he was proceeding to discuss the action of the House in a preceding Session.


Considering the time we have got, it is impossible that anybody could be confined to the mere Amendment before the House, because it would be utterly futile. My experience of the guillotine in this House is that necessarily very great latitude has to be given, otherwise the questions which are put off from time to time would never be answered at all. We are told, "Wait till you come to Clause 17, 18, 19, or 20," and when we come to them, and when we come to the time allotted to them, we find that we cannot discuss any of them. How am I to deal with that situation? Do you not know, Mr. Whitley, as well as anybody else that it is scandalous? [HON. MEMBERS: "Order, order."] The truth of the matter is that we are coming to the end of Parliamentary government altogether. To-night demonstrates the wreckage of this House, the wreckage of debate in it, and the mere pantomime that goes on here when you are asked in these few minutes to discuss elaborate Clauses of this kind. I suppose that the Government have made up their minds to look upon this Bill as a reality, although from what has occurred from day to day I am inclined to doubt it; but if they do look upon it as a reality—and if the Bill comes into force next year or the year after, and so far as I am concerned the sooner the better, so that we can get to real work—I predict that what the Government will do will be to appoint Home Rule lecturers. This is the new style of legislation. It does not matter one bit whether any single individual in the House understands a line of this complicated finance or not. The Postmaster-General made a speech on what he said was merely a drafting Amendment, and I suppose he was in earnest when he said that. How long did he take to deal with the drafting Amendment? He took twenty minutes. I listened to him myself. The right hon. Gentleman generally makes a clear statement, and if the matter could be made clear it would be made clear by him. I must say, however, that a more complicated, involved and difficult statement to follow has never been placed before the House. If any hon. Member were honestly to get up and express his opinion on that statement, he would have to say that he did not understand one single word of what the Postmaster-General was talking about. That is the way we have to deal with a drafting Amendment.

What are all the other points which are not going to be discussed at all and which are not drafting Amendments? There is the difficulty of estimating the Irish taxes. In Clause 17 the 10 per cent. limit comes in and the whole question of adding to the Imperial taxes and the way it has to be done, and in this Clause the Joint Exchequer Board is set up. Nevertheless, we have not had a single discussion upon that subject. Then there are the credits to the Transferred Sum in respect to the transferred and reserved services, and we are not to have a word about them. Clause 18 deals with the Guarantee Fund under the Irish Land Purchase Acts, Clause 19 deals with the Development Fund and the Road Improvement Grant, Clause 20 deals with the Irish Church Temporalities Fund, Clause 21 deals with the audit and the Irish Exchequer, and every one of these matters has to go without a single word. I suppose some time afterwards it will be solemnly said that this Bill passed the House of Commons. There are not twenty Members in the House of Commons who know any single fact in connection with these. Clauses, and they do not care. Their lives depend upon passing them; that is all they know, and so they pass them. This is not passing legislation by the House of Commons at all. It is passing legislation put forward by the Government, allocating time, not in proportion to the importance of the subject in hand, but to the political exigencies of a coalition majority. What does the Postmaster-General confess in relation to this matter? That he cannot tell us even now what are the charges upon the Transferred Sum. Here we are just going to pass this within a quarter of an hour and there is nobody who knows what the charges are and nobody can estimate them, and the right hon. Gentleman says by reason of Amendments put down by the Government there is a hundred thousand a year added to the sums that are to be taken from the Transferred Sum. A hundred thousand a year has never been discussed at all! What does it matter?


We have not reached the Clause.


"We have not reached the Clause." Why, that is becoming as common in this House as the "Wait and see" period. I put it to the Government: Surely, if they are earnest over this Bill, when they find there is genuinely no time for discussing important provisions, there ought to be some way in which they are able to get over the Closure, and enable, at all events, the important matters in these Clauses to be discussed. Is there anybody in the Government at all who cares about these things? Where is the Prime Minister? Where was he yesterday? He was not here yesterday; he has not been here to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "He has voted in the Divisions."] This shows the extent of the demoralisation. An hon. Member opposite thinks that in an important case of this kind, the only duty the Prime Minister owes to the House is that he should be here in the Divisions. He ought to be here at a time when the House of Commons is really being wrecked by these means.


Why does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman discuss the Amendment?


Does the hon. Gentleman think that is an interruption on a point of Order, or is it an interruption made just to suit his purpose? It does not very much matter. The hon. Gentleman knows very well you could not discuss this Amendment in the time. He only makes that exclamation for the sake of saying something—something which is not in the least relevant. Suppose at this moment you divide, and the House negatives these words, what then! The House knows perfectly well there is no time for any other Amendment. Look at the way in which the House is being treated. We are passing five important Clauses in an hour and five minutes, and the Prime Minister does not even come down here. They are financial Clauses, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not here. Neither is the Chief Secretary here. All these right hon. Gentlemen are supposed to have some interest in this Bill, but presumably they have not been able to master the details of the fantastic provisions as explained in the clear statement of the Postmaster-General. For my part, these proceedings this evening have taken away any pretence about the reality of the Bill. I doubt if there is a single hon. Member who understands anything about these proposals, or who can translate the meaning of the Postmaster-General.


I am quite willing to give way to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson), who, judging from his interruptions, is quite capable of discussing the Amendment. But as he does not rise, I only want to make one very short observation indeed. I only want to point out that an Act of Parliament becomes an Act and carries weight with it in the country because it has the full sanction of full and free debate in the House. But the Government are passing this through without even this ordinary sanction. One Member of the Government at the last election—as a matter of Radical bluff on the hustings—said the Bill would be forced on the people of Ulster by British bayonets. Are you still going to force this Bill on Ulster people by British bayonets when you will not allow the representatives of the people to discuss a word of it? I shall be glad to give way to the Prime Minister, who has just entered the Chamber, if he wants to defend the action of the Government. The Prime Minister has not been in the House to-night to hear the arguments. I understand from one of his devoted followers that he has been in the Division Lobby. That is his idea of his duty to the House of Commons. Owing to his absence he probably does not know that under his precious time table, and in consequence of the Amendments put down by his colleagues on the Front Bench, we on this side of the Committee have been allowed one hour and ten minutes to discuss five Clauses of the Bill. I ask the Prime Minister whether he approves of that, or will he give us further time, which I think we are entitled to as a matter of reason, to discuss these Clauses? If he does not do so, they will go through without a word being said upon them.

Before the Prime Minister came in I was asking if, when five important Clauses of this Bill are thrust through without one word being said upon them, debate being prevented by the Government Amendments, it was an Act of Parliament which was going to be thrust by force upon a loyal section of the people of this country. I say the thing is so monstrous that I believe if the Prime Minister had been in full possession of the facts he would have got up, and, with the reasonableness which sometimes distinguishes

him, said that he would extend the timetable. I hope he will yet do it. This is a state of affairs which is the guillotine run mad. It is absolutely intolerable. As my right hon. Friend said just now, not half a dozen Members on the Government side can tell us what is the subject-matter of these five Clauses. They are perfectly satisfied as long as there is a sufficient number to attend in the Division Lobby, as the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) said. That is the whole duty of man. I ask, when you have Bills put through this House and transformed into Acts of Parliament by brute majorities, without debate, what sanction can they have? So far as I am concerned, I say here, what hundreds of loyal people have said at home, that if anything would add to our intention to resist this Bill by all the means in our power if ever, by a great disaster, it comes into operation, it is the events that have occurred to-night, and the fact that we have not been able to debate these Clauses. It is only part of the unfairness, the deliberate unfairness, of His Majesty's Government.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 206; Noes, 314.

Division No. 338.] AYES. [10.30 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Cave, George Gardner, Ernest
Aitken, Sir William Max Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gastrell, Major W. H.
Amery, L. C. M. S. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Gibbs, G. A.
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Goldman, C. S.
Ashley, W. W. Chambers, James Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)
Astor, Waldorf Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)
Baird, John Lawrence Clive, Captain Percy Archer Goulding, Edward Alfred
Baicarres, Lord Clyde, J. Avon Greene, Walter Raymond
Baldwin, Stanley Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Gretton, John
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cooper, Richard Ashmole Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)
Banner, John S. Harmood- Courthope, George Loyd Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)
Barnston, Harry Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)
Barrie, H. T. Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Haddock, George Bahr
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Craig, Captain James (Downe, E.) Hall, Fred (Dulwich)
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Craik, Sir Henry Hamersley, Alfred St. George
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington)
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Cripps, Sir C. A. Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)
Beresford, Lord Charles Croft, Henry Page Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence
Bigland, Alfred Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Harris, Henry Percy
Bird, A. Denniss, E. R. B. Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Helmsley, Viscount
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Dixon, Charles Harvey Henderson, Major H. (Berks)
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Doughty, Sir George Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)
Boyton, James Duke, Henry Edward Hewins, William Albert Samuel
Bull, Sir William James Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Hickman, Colonel T. E.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Faber, George D. (Clapham) Hill, Sir Clement L.
Butcher, J. G. Fell, Arthur Hills, John Waller
Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Hill-Wood, Samuel
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Hoare, S. J. G.
Campion, W. R. Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Hohler, G. F.
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Fleming, Valentine Hope, Harry (Bute)
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Forster, Henry William Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)
Castlereagh, Viscount Foster, Philip Staveley Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian)
Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Moore, William Spear, Sir John Ward
Horner, A, L. Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Stanier, Beville
Houston, Robert Paterson Mount, William Arthur Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis Neville, Reginald J. N. Starkey, John Ralph
Hunt, Rowland Newdegate, F. A. Staveley-Hill, Henry
Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. Newman, John R. P. Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Ingleby, Holcombe Newton, Harry Kottingham Stewart, Gershom
Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)
Jessel, Captain Herbert M. Norton-Griffiths, J. Swift, Rigby
Joynson-Hicks, William O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Sykes, Allan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Talbot, Lord E.
Kerry, Earl of Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Kimber, Sir Henry Parkes, Ebenezer Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Thynne, Lord Alexander
Lane-Fox, G. R. Peto, Basil Edward Touche, G. A.
Larmor, Sir J. Pole-Carew, Sir R. Tryon, Captain George Clement
Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Pollock, Ernest Murray Tullibardine, Marquess of
Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'm'ts., Mile End) Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Valentia, Viscount
Lloyd, George Ambrose Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Remnant, James Farquharson Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Rolleston, Sir John Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Ronaldshay, Earl of Wills, Sir Gilbert
Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Rothschild, Lionel de Wolmer, Viscount
Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Salter, Arthur Clavell Worthington-Evans, L.
MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Mackinder, H. J. Sanders, Robert Arthur Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Sanderson, Lancelot Yate, Col. C. E.
Magnus, Sir Philip Sassoon, Sir Philip Yerburgh, Robert A.
Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) Younger, Sir George
Middlemore, John Throgmorton Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Smith, Harold (Warrington) Goldsmith and Mr. Cassel.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Clough, William Gladstone, W. G. C.
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Clynes, J. R. Glanville, Harold James
Acland, Francis Dyke Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Adamson, William Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
Addison, Dr. Christopher Condon, Thomas Joseph Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Griffith, Ellis J.
Agnew, Sir George William Cotton, William Francis Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Gulland, John William
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Crooks, William Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
Arnold, Sydney Crumley, Patrick Hackett, John
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Cullinan, John Hall, Frederick (Normanton)
Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Hancock, John George
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Rossendale)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol) Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Dawes, J. A. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithnese-shire)
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) De Forest, Baron Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Barnes, George N. Delany, William Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) Denman, Hon. R. D. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Barton, William Devlin, Joseph Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Dickinson, W. H. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Beck, Arthur Cecil Dillon, John Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry
Bentham, George Jackson Donelan, Captain A. Hayden, John Patrick
Bethell, Sir John Henry Doris, W. Hayward, Evan
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Duffy, William J. Hazleton, Richard
Black, Arthur W. Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Helme, Sir Norval Watson
Boland, John Pius Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Booth, Frederick Handel Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Henderson. J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Bowerman, C. W. Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Henry, Sir Charles
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Elverston, Sir Harold Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.)
Brace, William Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Higham, John Sharp
Brady, Patrick Joseph Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Hinds, John
Brocklehurst, W. B. Essex, Richard Walter Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
Bryce, J. Annan Esslemont, George Birnie Hodge, John
Buckmastcr, Stanley O. Falconer, J. Hogge, James Myles
Burke, E. Haviland- Farrell, James Patrick Holmes, Daniel Turner
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Holt, Richard Durning
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Ffrench, Peter Hope, John Deans (Haddington)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Field, William Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
Byles, Sir William Pollard Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Fitzgibbon, John Hudson, Walter
Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) Flavin, Michael Joseph Hughes, S. L.
Chancellor, H. G. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
Chappie, Dr. W. A. Gill, A. H. Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh)
Clancy, John Joseph Ginnell, L. John, Edward Thomas
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Neilson, Francis Rowntree, Arnold
Jones, H Haydn (Merioneth) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Nolan, Joseph Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Norton, Captain Cecil W. Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Nuttall, Harry Scanian, Thomas
Jowett, Frederick William O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E.
Joyce, Michael O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)
Keating, Matthew O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Kellaway, Frederick George O'Doherty, Philip Sheehy, David
Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Donnell, Thomas Sherwell, Arthur James
Kilbride, Denis Ogden, Fred Shortt, Edward
King, J. OGrady, James Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Clitheroe)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Smith, H. B. Lees (Northampton)
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe O'Malley, William Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Snowden, Philip
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Soames, Arthur Wellesley
Leach, Charles O'Shee, James John Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
Levy, Sir Maurice O'Sullivan, Timothy Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Lewis, John Herbert Outhwaite, R. L. Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Palmer, Godfrey Mark Sutherland, John E.
Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Parker, James (Halifax) Sutton, John E.
Lundon, T. Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Taylor, John (W. (Durham)
Lyell, Charles Henry Pearce, William (Limehouse) Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)
Lynch, Arthur Alfred Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph (Rotherham) Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Tennant, Harold John
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Thomas, J. H.
McGhee, Richard Pirie, Duncan V. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Macnamara, Rt. Hon, Dr. T. J. Pointer, Joseph Thorne, William (West Ham)
MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Pollard, Sir George H. Toulmin, Sir George
Macpherson, James Ian Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Trevelyan, Charles Philips
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Power, Patrick Joseph Verney, Sir Harry
M'Callum, Sir John M. Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Wadsworth, John
M'Curdy, C. A. Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
M'Kean, John Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wardle, George J.
M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Primrose, Hon. Neil James Waring, Walter
M'Micking, Major Gilbert Pringle, William M. R. Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Manfield, Harry Radford, G. H. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Marks, Sir George Croydon Raffan, Peter Wilson Webb, H.
Mason, David M. (Coventry) Raphael, Sir Herbert H. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Meagher, Michael Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Reddy, M. Whitehouse, John Howard
Menzies, Sir, Walter Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P.
Millar, James Duncan Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Molloy, M. Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Wiles, Thomas
Molteno, Percy Alport Rendall, Athelstan Wilkie, Alexander
Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Money, L. G. Chiozza Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Mooney, John J. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Morgan, George Hay Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Morrell, Philip Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Morison, Hector Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Winfrey, Richard
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Robinson, Sidney Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)
Muldoon, John Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) Young, William (Perth, East)
Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Roche, Augustine (Louth) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Murray, Capt. Hon. A. C. Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Nannetti, Joseph Roe, Sir Thomas TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Needham, Christopher T. Rowlands, James Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn,

It being after half-past Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments, moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at half-past Ten of the Clock at this day's sitting.

Government Amendment: In Subsection (2), to leave out the word "financial" ["shall be reduced in each financial year"].—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 322; Noes, 217.

Division No. 339.] AYES. [10.43 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Addison, Dr. C. Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton)
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud)
Acland, Francis Dyke Agnew, Sir George William Arnold, Sydney
Adamson, William Ainsworth, John Stirling Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Griffith, Ellis Jones Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Guest, Major Hon. C. H, C. (Pembroke) Meagher, Michael
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Guest, Hon, Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Gulland, John W. Menzies, Sir Walter
Barnes, G. N. Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Millar, James Duncan
Barran, Sir John (Hawick) Hackett, John Molloy, M.
Barton, W. Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) Molteno, Percy Alport
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Hancock, John George Mond, Sir Alfred Morltz
Beck, Arthur Cecil Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Money, L. G. Chiozza
Bentham, G. J. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mooney, John J.
Bethell, Sir John Henry Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) Morgan, George Hay
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) Morrell, Philip
Black, Arthur W. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Morison, Hector
Boland, John Pius Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Booth, Frederick Handel Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Muldoon, John
Bowerman, C. W. Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C.
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.
Brace, William Hayden, John Patrick Nannetti, Joseph P.
Brady, P. J. Hayward, Evan Needham, Christopher T.
Brocklehurst, W, B. Hazleton, Richard Neilson, Francis
Bryce, J. Annan Helme, Sir Norval Watson Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster)
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nolan, Joseph
Burke, E. Haviland- Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) Norton, Captain Cecil W.
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henry, Sir Charles Nugent, Sir Walter Richard
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) Nuttall, Harry
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Byles, Sir William Pollard Hinds, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hodge, John O'Doherty, Philip
Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) Hogge, James Myles O'Donnell, Thomas
Chancellor, H. G. Holmes, Daniel Turner Ogden, Fred
Chapple, Dr. William Alien Holt, Richard Durning O'Grady, James
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Clancy, John Joseph Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)
Clough, William Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Malloy, William
Clynes, J. R. Hudson, Walter O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus O'Shee, James John
Condon, Thomas Joseph Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Sullivan, Timothy
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. John, Edward Thomas Outhwaite, R. L.
Cotton, William Francis Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Parker, James (Halifax)
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Crooks, William Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts. Rushcliffe) Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Crumley, Patrick Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Cullinan, J. Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton)
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Jowett, Frederick William Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Davies, E. William (Eifion) Joyce, Michael Pirie, Duncan V.
Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Keating, M. Pointer, Joseph
Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Kellaway, Frederick George Pollard, Sir George H.
Dawes, J. A. Kennedy, Vincent Paul Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Delany, William Kilbride, Denis Power, Patrick Joseph
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas King, Joseph Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Devlin, Joseph Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Dickinson, W. H. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickdale) Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham)
Dillon, John Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Donelan, Captain A. Law, Huqh A. (Donegal, W.) Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Doris, William Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Pringle, William M. R.
Duffy, William J. Leach, Charles Radford, G. H.
Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Levy, Sir Maurice Raffan, Peter Wilson
Edwards, A. Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Lewis, John Herbert Raphael, Sir Herbert H.
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Elverston, Sir Harold Lundon, Thomas Reddy, Michael
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lyell, Charles Henry Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lynch, Arthur Alfred Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Essex, Richard Walter Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone)
Esslemont, George Birnie Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rendall, Athelstan
Falconer, J. McGhee, Richard Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Farrell, James Patrick Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Ffrench, Peter Macpherson, James Ian Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs)
Field, William MacVeagh, Jeremiah Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward M'Callum, Sir John M. Robertson, John M. (Tyneside)
Fitzgibbon, John M'Curdy, C. A. Robinson, Sidney
Flavin, Michael Joseph M'Kean, John Roch, Walter F.
George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Gill, A. H. M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Ginnell, L. M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Roe, Sir Thomas
Gladstone, W G. C. M'Micking, Major Gilbert Rowlands, James
Glanville, H. J. Manfield, Harry Rowntree, Arnold
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marks, Sir George Croydon Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Martin, Joseph Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W.
Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) Whitehouse, John Howard
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Tennant, Harold John Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
Scanlan, Thomas Thomas, J. H. Whyte, Alexander F.
Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wiles Thomas
Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Thorne, William (West Ham) Wilkie, Alexander
Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Toulmin, Sir George Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Sheehy, David Trevelyan, Charles Philips Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Sherwell, Arthur James Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Shortt, Edward Verney, Sir Harry Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Wadsworth, J. Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) Winfrey, Richard
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Wardle, G. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Snowden, Philip Waring, Walter Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Soames, Arthur Wellesley Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay Young, William (Perth, East)
Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) Webb, H.
Sutherland, J. E. Wedgwood, Josiah C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Sutton, John E. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn.
Taylor, John W. (Durham) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Duke, Henry Edward Lane-Fox, G. R.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Larmor, Sir J.
Aitken, Sir William Max Faber, George D. (Clapham) Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)
Amery, L. C. M. S. Fell, Arthur Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End)
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Lewisham, Viscount
Ashley, W. W. Finlay Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Lloyd, George Ambrose
Astor, Wardort Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)
Baird, J. L. Fleming, Valentine Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey)
Balcarres, Lord Forster, Henry William Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R.
Baldwin, Stanley Foster, Philip Staveley Long, Rt. Hon. Walter
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Gardner, Ernest Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee
Barnston, Harry Gastrell, Major W. H. Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston)
Barrie, H. T. Gibbs, G. A. Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo., Han. S.)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Goldman, C. S. Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Goldsmith, Frank MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Mackinder, Halford J.
Bonn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) Macmaster, Donald
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Goulding, Edward Alfred M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)
Beresford, Lord C. Greene, Walter Raymond Magnus, Sir Philip
Bigland, Alfred Gretton, John Meysey-Thompson, E. C.
Bird, A. Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) Mildmay, Francis Bingham
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Haddock, George Bahr Moore, William
Boyton, J. Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Mount, William Arthur
Bull, Sir William James Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) Neville, Reginald J. N.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Hamersley, A. St. George Newdegate, F. A.
Butcher, J. G. Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Newman, John R. P.
Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) Newton, Harry Kottingham
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)
Campion, William Robert Harris, Henry Percy Nield, Herbert
Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Norton-Griffiths, J.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Helmsley, Viscount O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid)
Cassel, Felix Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. W. A.
Castlereagh, Viscount Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William
Cave, George Hewins, William Albert Samuel Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend)
Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor) Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Parkes, Ebenezer
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Hill, Sir Clement Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Hills, J. W. Peto, Basil Edward
Chambers, James Hill-Wood, Samuel Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Hoare, S. J. G. Pollock, E. M.
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Hohler, G. F. Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Clyde, James Avon Hope, Harry (Bute) Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Remnant, James Farquharson
Cooper, Richard Ashmole Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Courthope, George Loyd Horne, Edgar (Surrey, Guildford) Rolleston, Sir John
Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Horner, A. L. Ronaldshay, Earl of
Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe) Houston, Robert Paterson Rothschild, Lionel de
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hume-Williams, W. E. Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Hunt, Rowland Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Craik, Sir Henry Hunter, Sir C. R. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Ingleby, Holcombe Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Cripps, Sir C. A. Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) Sanders, Robert A.
Croft, H. P. Jessel, Captain H. M. Sanderson, Lancelot
Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Joynson-Hicks, William Sassoon, Sir Philip
Denniss, E. R. B. Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. Kerry, Earl of Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Dixon, C. H. Kimber, Sir Henry Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'p'l, Walton)
Doughty, Sir George Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Spear, Sir John Ward Terrell, H. (Gloucester) Winterton, Earl
Stanier, Beville Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) Wolmer, Viscount
Stanley, Major Hon. G. F. (Preston) Thynne, Lord Alexander Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon)
Starkey, John R. Tobin, Alfred Aspinall Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Staveley-Hill, Henry Touche, George Alexander Worthington-Evans, L.
Steel-Maitland, A. D. Tryon, Captain George Clement Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
Stewart, Gershom Tullibardine, Marquess of Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) Valentia, Viscount Yate, Col. C. E.
Swift, Rigby Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) Yerburgh, Robert A.
Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) Younger, Sir George
Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Talbot, Lord E. Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Wills, Sir Gilbert Walrond and Mr. Kerr-Smiley.

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 323; Noes, 220.

Division No. 340.] AYES. [10.52 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hodge, John
Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, s.) Hogge, James Myles
Acland, Francis Dyke Dawes, J. A. Holmes, Daniel Turner
Adamson, William De Forest, Baron Holt, Richard Durning
Addison, Dr. C. Delany, William Hope, John Deans (Haddington)
Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
Agnew, Sir George William Devlin, Joseph Hudson, Waiter
Ainsworth, John Stirling Dickinson, W. H. Hughes, Spencer Leigh
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) Dillon, John Illingworth, Percy H.
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Donelan, Captain A. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
Arnold, Sydney Doris, William Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire)
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Duffy, William J. John, Edward Thomas
Baker, H. T, (Accrington) Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe)
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Elverston, Sir Harold Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Barnes, George N. Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Jones, W. S. Glyn. (T. H'mts, Stepney)
Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Jowett, Frederick William
Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) Essex, Richard Walter Joyce, Michael
Barton, William Esslemont, George Birnie Keating, Matthew
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Falconer, James Kellaway, Frederick George
Beck, Arthur Cecil Farrell, James Patrick Kennedy, Vincent Paul
Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Kilbride, Denis
Bentham, G. J. Ffrench, Peter King, J.
Bethell, Sir John Henry Field, William Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Crickiade)
Black, Arthur W. Fitzgibbon, John Lardner, James Carrige Rushe
Boland, John Pius Flavin, Michael Joseph Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)
Booth, Frederick Handel George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th)
Bowerman, C. W. Gill, A. H. Leach, Charles
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Ginnell, Laurence Levy, Sir Maurice
Brace, William Gladstone, W. G. C. Lewis, John Herbert
Brady, P. J. Glanville, H. J. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas
Brocklehurst, W. B. Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Low, Sir F. (Norwich)
Bryce, J. Annan Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Lundon, T.
Buckmaster, Stanley O. Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Lyell, Charles Henry
Burke, E. Haviland- Griffith, Ellis Jones Lynch, Arthur Alfred
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester)
Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Gulland, John W. Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney A, (Poplar) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) McGhee, Richard
Byles, Sir William Pollard Hackett, J. Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hall, Frederick (Normanton) MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South)
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hancock, J. G. Macpherson, James Ian
Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Chancellor, Henry George Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) M'Callum, Sir John M.
Chapple, Dr. William Allen Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) M'Curdy, C. A.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) M'Kean, John
Clancy, John Joseph Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Clough, William Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
Clynes, John R. Haslam, James (Derbyshire) M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding)
Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) M'Micking, Major Gilbert
Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Manfield, Harry
Condon, Thomas Joseph Hayden, John Patrick Marks, Sir George Croydon
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hayward, Evan Martin, J.
Cotton, William Francis Hazleton, Richard Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Meagher, Michael
Crooks, William Henry, Sir Charles Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Crumley, Patrick Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) Menzies, Sir Walter
Cullinan, J. Higham, John Sharp Millar, James Duncan
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Hinds, John Molloy, Michael
Davies, Ellis William (Elfion) Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Molteno, Percy Alport
Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Money, L. G. Chiozza Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Mooney, John J. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Sutherland, John E.
Morgan, George Hay Primrose, Hon. Neill James Sutton, John E.
Worrell, Philip Pringle, William M. R. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Morison, Hector Radford, G. H. Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe)
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Rattan, Peter Wilson Tennant, Harold John
Muldoon, John Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry Thomas, J. H.
Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon R. C. Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Thorne, William (West Ham)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Reddy, Michael Toulmin, Sir George
Needham, Christopher T. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Neilson, Francis Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Verney, Sir Harry
Nolan, Joseph Rendall, Atheistan Wadsworth, John
Norton, Captain Cecil W. Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Walton, Sir Joseph
Nuttall, Harry Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Wardle, George J.
O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Waring, Walter
O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
O'Doherty, Philip Robinson, Sidney Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
O'Donnell, Thomas Roch, Walter F. Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Ogden, Fred Roche, Augustine (Louth) Webb, H.
O'Grady, James Roche, John (Galway, E.) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Roe, Sir Thomas White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Rowlands, James White, Patrick (Meath, North)
O'Malley, William Rowntree, Arnold Whitehouse, John Howard
O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. Whyte, A. F.
O'Shee, James John Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) Wiles, Thomas
O'Sullivan, Timothy Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wilkie, Alexander
Outhwaite, R. L. Scanlan, Thomas Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Palmer, Godfrey Mark Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Parker, James (Halifax) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Pearce, William (Limehouse) Sheehy, David Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Pease, Robert Joseph A. (Rotherham) Sherwell, Arthur James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Shortt, Edward Winfrey, Richard
Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Pirie, Duncan Vernon Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Pointer, Joseph Smith, H. B. (Northampton) Young, William (Perth, East)
Pollard, Sir George H. Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Snowden, P.
Power, Patrick Joseph Soames, Arthur Wellesley TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert G. Howard and Captain Guest
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Cassel, Felix Forster, Henry William
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Castlereagh, Viscount Foster, Philip Staveley
Aitken, Sir William Max Cave, George Gastrell, Major W. Houghton
Amery, L. C. M. S. Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Gibbs, George Abraham
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Goldman, C. S.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Goldsmith, Frank
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Chambers, James Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)
Astor, Waldorf Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)
Baird, John Lawrence Clive, Captain Percy Archer Goulding, Edward, Alfred
Balcarres, Lord Clyde, J. Avon Greene, Walter Raymond
Baldwin, Stanley Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Gretton, John
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cooper, Richard Ashmole Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.)
Barnston, Harry Courthope, George Loyd Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)
Barrie, H. T. Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Gwynne, R. S. (Eastbourne)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Haddock, George Bahr
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Hall, Fred (Dulwich)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Craik, Sir Henry Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth)
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian Hamersley, Alfred St. George
Beresford, Lord Charles Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.)
Bigland, Alfred Croft, Henry Page Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry)
Bird, Alfred Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Denniss, E. R. B. Harris, Henry Percy
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Dixon, Charles Harvey Helmsley, Viscount
Boyton, J. Doughty, Sir George Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Duke, Henry Edward Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)
Bull, Sir William James Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Hewins, William Albert Samuel
Burn, Colonel C. R. Faber, George Denison (Clapham) Hickman Col. Thomas E.
Butcher, John George Fell, Arthur Hill, Sir Clement L.
Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Hills, John Waller
Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Hill-Wood, Samuel
Campion, W. R. Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Heare, S. J. G.
Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Fleming, Valentine Hohler, G. F.
Hope, Harry (Bute) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Moore, William Starkey, John Ralph
Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Staveley-Hill, Henry
Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Mount, William Arthur Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Horner, Andrew Long Neville, Reginald J. N. Stewart, Gershom
Houston, Robert Paterson Newdegate, F. A. Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.)
Hume-Williams, William Ellis Newman, John R. P. Swift, Rigby
Hunt, Rowland Newton, Harry Kottingham Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Ingleby, Holcombe Nield, Herbert Talbot, Lord Edmund
Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, S.) Norton-Griffiths, J. Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.)
Jessel, Capt. H. M. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)
Joynson-Hicks, William Orde-Powlett, W. G. A. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Thynne, Lord Alexander
Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Kerry, Earl of Parkes, Ebenezer Touche, George Alexander
Kimber, Sir Henry Pease, Herbert (Pike (Darlington) Tryon, Captain George Clement
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Peto, Basil Edward Tullibardine, Marquess of
Lane-Fox, G. R. Pole-Carew, Sir R. Valentia, Viscount
Larmor, Sir J. Pollock, Ernest Murray Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford)
Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Lewisham, Viscount Remnant, James F. Wheler, Granville C. H.
Lloyd, G. A. Roberts, s. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Rolleston, Sir John Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Ronaldshay, Earl of Wills, Sir Gilbert
Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Rothschild, Lionel de Winterton, Earl
Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) Wolmer, Viscount
Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Salter, Arthur Clavell Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) Worthington-Evans, L.
Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Sanders, Robert Arthur Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-
MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Sanderson, Lancelot Wright, Henry Fitzherbert
Mackinder, Halford J. Sassoon, Sir Philip Yate, Col. C. E.
Macmaster, Donald Scott, Leslie (Liverpol, Exchange) Yerburgh, Robert A
M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) Younger, Sir George
Magnus, Sir Philip Smith, Rt. Hon. F. E. (L'pl., Walton)
Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Smith, Harold (Warrington) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir
Middlemore, John Throgmorton Spear, Sir John Ward H. Carlile and Mr. E. Gardner.
Mildmay, Francis Bingham Stanier, Beville