§ (1) The Irish Parliament shall have power to vary (either by way of addition, reduction, or discontinuance) any Imperial tax so far as respects the levy of that tax in Ireland, and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, subject to the following limitations:—
- (a) The Irish Parliament shall not have power to impose or charge a Customs Duty, whether an Import or an Export Duty, on any article unless that article is for the time being liable to a Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax; and
- (b) The benefit to accrue to the Irish Exchequer from any addition to any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax (other than a Customs Duty on beer or spirits), or to any duty of Income Tax so levied, or to any Death Duty so levied, shall be limited as in this Act provided; and
- (c) The power of the Irish Parliament to vary an Imperial tax shall not be exercised with respect to the Stamp Duties mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act; and
- (d) The Irish Parliament shall not, in the exercise of their powers of taxation under this provision, make any variation of Customs or Excise Duties the effect of which will be to
1046 cause the Customs Duty on any article of a class produced, prepared, or manufactured in Ireland, to exceed the Excise Duty by more than an amount reasonably sufficient to cover any expenses due to Excise restrictions;
§ (2) For the purposes of this Act—?
- (a) The expression "Imperial tax" means any tax charged for the time being in Ireland under the authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and includes a tax which has been discontinued under the powers given by this Section to the Irish Parliament, but which would have been so charged but for the discontinuance;
- (b) The expression "Irish tax" means any tax charged under the authority of the Irish Parliament either by way of an addition to an Imperial tax or as an independent tax.
§ The CHAIRMANThe first Amendment, as I stated yesterday, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties," but after the full discussion we had yesterday, I do not think that hon. Members should go over the same ground. The next Amendment will be that in the name of the hon. Member for St. Pancras (Mr. Cassel), proposing to leave out the power to levy new taxes in Ireland. The next, if we have time, will be that standing in the name of the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins) to insert the words: "The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
§ Mr. AMERYI beg to move in Subsection (1) after the word "tax" ["any Imperial tax"], to insert the words "other than Customs or Excise Duties."
We consider this Amendment, not only as one justified in itself, but as a test of the sincerity of Members opposite who have declared themselves in favour of a Federal Constitution. It has been admitted that every Federal Constitution in the world clearly reserves these powers to the Federal authority. That is not a mere coincidence, or a mere convention. I 1047 suggest that it springs necessarily from the whole nature of Federal government. The difficulty of Federal government lies in reconciling the natural desire of a local government for greater powers with the need for national union, and the way in which that difficulty has always been got over is by making the industrial and economic interests of the citizens coincide, not with the State or Province, but with the nation as a whole. By abolishing provincial boundaries in those matters which most concern the life of the ordinary citizen, you make him feel that the nation is the real Federal unit, and that the Province or State is a mere administrative convenience for certain purposes. That is clear when you are dealing with an attempt to bring about greater union among separate States; it is even more clear when you are breaking up an existing union at the instigation of a party who have always avowedly aimed, not at Federalism, but at Separatism. I am ready to believe that hon. Members opposite do sincerely desire a Federal scheme, but surely they are alive to the fact that many of the Members behind me, and still more their supporters in Ireland, do not desire a Federal scheme, and are bound to make efforts to break down a Federal system in favour of a Separatist system.
One might not be surprised if hon. Members in their eagerness to prevent Separatism and to make Federalism really work were prepared to abandon their Free Trade principles and accept a protective tariff for the United Kingdom, just as the New South Wales Free Traders accepted a Protectionist tariff in Australia; but nothing is more surprising than to find hon. Members opposite accepting the division of the United Kingdom in this most important matter. They protested enough about it in words. We even found the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, when speaking of his unreflecting Home Rule Friends demanding that Ireland should have power to fix Customs and Excise, describing them as having no State left at all. After all these protests comes a petty little Amendment from the Postmaster-General, which would not remove a single objection of a sincere federalist. The Bill remains not a whit less objectionable, and a great deal more ridiculous, but straightway the whole opposition collapses. I am not going over the ground which has been covered in previous Debates. I would point out that that Amendment, as 1048 far as it goes, is bound to be only temporary. It is certain to be swept away when the financial revision comes. The hon. and learned Member for Waterford made it perfectly clear in his speech that he regarded it as a trivial Amendment, because there was no immediate prospect of Ireland wishing or being able to reduce taxation in respect of Customs Duties. He also made it perfectly clear that he hoped to have a free hand when the financial revision came. But whether it be temporary or permanent, you still have left in the Bill a barrier between this country and Ireland a barrier to trade and an instrument for Protection in the hands of the Irish Government. It will be a hindrance and inconvenience; and it will cause to be imposed upon every man who wishes to send goods from England to Ireland an expense which is not imposed on people sending goods from Ireland to England. It is only a question of the Customs authorities making their rules sufficiently vexatious and stringent to make that a very serious cause of expense.
We may be told that the Customs officers will be under the control of the United Kingdom. How do we know that? How do we know that under Clause 40 they will not by some arrangement be transferred? If they are not transferred let me put the position. As the Leader of the Opposition has shown, you have the danger of smuggling. If any smuggling successfully takes place, do you not think that you will have speech after speech and Motion after Motion in the Irish House of Commons protesting against the laxity of the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland, suggesting that they are in the pay of British industries, and insisting upon either screwing up the Imperial Customs officers in Ireland to the point which they desire or else breaking down the system altogether? "There is a further point, which I would just mention again, for no attempt has been made on the part of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to answer it. I will deal with it in a single concrete instance. If you do not give this power to change the Customs and Excise to the Irish Government, its powers to give a bounty would be limited by its resources. It might have £40,000 or £50,000 that it was willing to spend on tobacco, and this sum, while it might give valuable encouragement to tobacco growing as an experiment, would not amount to substantial and continuous perfection. But now take the powers you are conferring under this 1049 Bill. Let me suppose that the Irish Government raises the Customs and Excise on tobacco by 6d. in the £—that is to say, from 3s. 8d. to 4s. 2d. on the raw leaf. You would at once get an increase of revenue of something approximating to £200,000. On this the Irish Government, under the Ten per Cent. Rule, can keep £160,000. Take the £40,000 or £50,000 that that Government is prepared to spend already with the additional £160,000, and you have enough money to give a bounty of 1s. in the £ on 4,000,000 lbs. of tobacco —more than half the tobacco consumed in Ireland.
What is the position of the Irish tobacco grower in that? He pays nominally an Excise Duty of 4s. 2d., and he receives the bounty of 1s. He does, in effect, pay an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., while his English or foreign competitor pays a Customs Duty of 4s. 2d. He gets direct protection, without any cost to the Irish Government, or necessarily any cost to the Irish consumer, of Is. in the £. There is a further point. Supposing the Irish manufacturer, producing tobacco which enjoys a 1s. per lb. preference over his English and foreign competitors, sends his tobacco to England. That tobacco has, in fact, only paid an Excise Duty of 3s. 2d., but it is supposed to have paid 4s. 2d., and therefore it is going to get a bigger drawback. It comes to this country and gets a drawback of 6d. So that actually what is paid upon Irish tobacco coming to England is 2s. 8d., as against 3s. 8d. paid by any other tobacco coming into this country. Surely that is sufficient to disorganise the tobacco trade of this country, and to give real and effective protection to Irish tobacco! How are you going to meet that? Is there any way of meeting that condition of things except by imposing a duty in this country against this bounty-fed Irish tobacco? The right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General has already suggested that. Yet what is the point of the Amendment to prevent in Ireland the reduction of the Customs and Excise? The whole point of that Amendment is to prevent the necessity for putting up a tariff barrier in Great Britain. Here, however, by the Bill as you have it, you inevitably create conditions under which you are bound very soon to put up that tariff barrier! Once you give Ireland power over the Customs and Excise, you give quite a different meaning to the power to give bounties, to the power to establish a State monopoly, and to the power to establish trade agents. 1050 There is nothing harmful in a province having trade agents, if it is a province. The Canadian provinces have trade agents in this country, and the Australian States have trade agents in this country. Those trade agents know that their powers are limited, because they cannot speak for the Governments which are authorised to make Customs treaties; but the moment you give the Irish Government the power to vary the Customs and Excise, you turn what would otherwise be trade agents into quasi-diplomatic agents; into agents who, in fact if not in theory, will have the power to conduct commercial treaties, and deal with all commercial treaties indirectly involved. You may say it will be rather a one-sided Customs bargain if Ireland can only raise duties and not lower them. But, of course, promises not to raise duties can have their weight in the Customs bargain.
Even so, there is the further point in regard to the Excise which has not been dealt with in this Debate at all. All the restrictions, by which it is intended to safeguard, to patch and plug up the leaky vessel of Free Trade, are in regard to Customs or to Excise Duties where Customs Duties are imposed. There is no provision in this Bill whatever to prevent the Irish Government imposing any sort of Excise at any rates, or with any degree of variation, on articles not subject to Customs Duties, Nothing in the Bill, so far as I can see, would prevent the Irish Government proposing an Excise on the sale of woollen goods, and of imposing it at one rate on the sale of English goods and another rate on the sale of Irish goods. That is the whole case. It is leaking. So far from having a few small gaps that may be filled, its gaps are such that you will only fill them up on one condition, and that is to reserve the power of dealing with Customs and Excise and the regulation of commerce in any shape or form to the United Kingdom. That is the whole object of this Amendment. I could have wished, Mr. Whitley, that you had allowed this Amendment on Clause 2 in order to make it quite clear that it was a fundamental part of the new constitutional system being introduced by the right hon. Gentleman, that he would never, in any circumstances, contemplate depriving the United Kingdom of these powers, which are essential, if it is to remain a United Kingdom; for even if we pass this, under this Clause there is always the suggestion latent that it may be revised. 1051 We may be opposed to the idea of a federal United Kingdom—and for my part I do not believe there is room for such a federal system—but at any rate I do regard it as infinitely preferable to a system of separatism. Hon Members opposite do, I believe, sincerely wish it, and if they do wish it, if they do not wish to damage the cause of federalism irretrievably, I submit they are in honour and conscience bound to vote for this Amendment.
§ The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel)I shall strictly observe your recommendation, Mr. Whitley, that seeing this matter has been very largely discussed, the speeches should be brief, and I shall endeavour as far as possible not to cover the ground which has been previously traversed. Therefore it is no disrespect to the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken if I deal with what he has said as shortly as I can. His first point was that our proposal with regard to Customs and Excise runs counter to the federal idea, and that if there are any hon. Members on this side of the House who hold strongly the federal idea, whose support of Home Rule is founded on that principle, that they must necessarily vote on this occasion for this Amendment. The hon. Member has spoken to-day as he has spoken previously, and as hon. Members have spoken on many occasions, as if what we were really proposing was to give to the Irish Government complete control of her tariff policy; that we are establishing a system of fiscal autonomy, and that we are enabling Ireland to do what the States of Australia were able to do towards one another before the federation of their Commonwealth. The movement of federation in that and other parts of the world, in so far as it touches this question of Customs, was, of course, as in every case, mainly directed to the abolition of the powers of the particular States to tax the goods of their neighbours—neighbours speaking the same language, usually of the same or kindred races—for the protection of their native industries, with the result that there was constant friction in the various communities which should have formed an autonomous whole. They became under these circumstances frequently irritated with one another and possibly hostile.
It is necessary to remind the Committee once more—probably this may be the last opportunity of doing so—what precisely 1052 are the powers that we are conferring in this regard. We are conferring no powers to tax any article which is not already included in our tariff; no power to tax British goods for the protection of Irish goods; no power to discriminate between goods according to their origin and to levy a higher tax on goods coming from one part of the world than on goods coming from another pan of the world. Indeed, we have introduced an Amendment to the effect that they are to have no power to reduce the Customs Duty on goods of any kind at all. The hon. Gentleman called this a petty little Amendment, which does not by any means alter or diminish the inherent viciousness of our system, or make it in any degree less acceptable. A petty little Amendment! Yes, but we were told by the right hon and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College, that what is now described as "a petty little Amendment" was a revolution in the Bill. We were told we are changing the Bill in a vital principle which requires the whole reconsideration of our financial proposals. It is not necessary to dwell further on that inconsistency in regard to the powers conferred upon the Irish Government. These, in relation to Customs, are nothing more than that they may simply, with regard to the Beer and Spirits Customs Duty, increase them at their will; but in regard to tea, sugar, and other similar Customs Duties, they may increase them with the limit that they can have no more benefit than 10 per cent, on the increased yield of the taxes. With regard to the actual provisions, I think that any stranger listening to the hon. Gentleman's speech, who had not previously followed his controversy, would be amazed to find, after hearing all that he had to say, that we are not giving fiscal autonomy to Ireland, but are giving the power we are for purely revenue purposes, limited to the receipt of the additional revenue of 10 per cent, of the Customs Duties, except beer and spirits.
I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman, as an active leader of the Tariff Reform movement, discoursing so cogently on the inconvenience of Protection. When he gives an illustration he gives one the impression that he is living in an unreal world. Out of his own very nimble and ingenious brain he spins cobwebs which he attaches to branches of our tree, and then he points to the flimsiness of his own cobwebs as a proof to the weakness of our tree! The other day he grave as a really serious illustration what might occur 1053 under this Bill if this country was engaged in a war for the sake of a Lancashire cotton industry. He suggested that that war was made possible because in this House there were only forty-two Irish Members, whereas if there had been sixty-five Irish Members it would not have been possible. If additional taxation was levied upon Ireland for that war, he suggested that the Irish people would have a cause of complaint. To-day we have had similarly fantastical illustrations. The hon. Member to-day has suggested that the Irish Government would impose a stiff duty upon foreign tobacco going into Ireland, and use this to give a bounty to the Irish tobacco growers in order practically to compel the Irish people, if I may say so, to consume their own smoke—that is to say, to smoke tobacco grown on their own soil. It is forgotten that in all probability the Irish smoker will have something to say to this. Excellent as Irish tobacco may be in some circumstances—in many cases, no doubt—for the Irish Parliament seriously and deliberately to raise the price of all foreign tobaccos going into Ireland would mean that the Irish consumer would undoubtedly have something to say to his representative. Then he went on to give us another illustration of the Irish Parliament calmly sitting down, and in the fullness of its wisdom imposing an Excise Duty on the sale of woollen goods, an Excise Duty upon the clothes of the people at a higher rate if the clothes of the people were made in Yorkshire, and at a lower rate if they were made in some parts of Ireland. Is it really conceivable that an Irish Parliament would deliberately set to work to raise the cost of clothing on the poorest class of people in Ireland in that way?
§ Mr. AMERYIt is perfectly possible to put 1d. per yard duty on Irish woollens, and 2s. per yard on English woollens, and other countries have done the same.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI think it certainly would be ultra vires to put a higher Excise Duty than a Customs Duty.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELHow would it be possible to put an Excise Duty on commodities according to their place of origin? You would want to have the Customs officer going round from one shop to another, saying, "Here is a piece of English goods, which must be taxed at the higher rate; and here is a piece of 1054 Irish goods, which must get the benefit of the lower rate."
§ Mr. AMERYThe right hon. Gentleman, the Member for West Islington pointed out that you must have a Customs in order to-trace all goods coming into Ireland, and it would be perfectly easy to trace English goods to the wholesale shops.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI leave it to the Committee to decide whether or not my description of the hon. Gentleman's arguments as fantastic is not perfectly justified. On the hon. Member's supposition I could prove that the present state of things in Ireland is grossly unjust and intolerable, and must lead to inevitable friction between the two countries. The party opposite did an admirable piece of work in this House by setting up the Congested Districts Board, which has set itself in a very practical fashion to the development of the fishing industry in Ireland. I can imagine the hon. Gentleman, if we proposed such a scheme, saying, "You are-proposing to give British money to encourage Irish fishermen to make harbours and to provide additional expenses for fishing boats, and then you allow them to send their fish over here to undersell English fishermen." That is the state of things undoubtedly existing, and do hon. Members suppose that we ought to put a contravailing duty on Irish fish for the protection for the North or West fishermen. So much for the hon. Gentleman's concrete illustrations. His speeches are full of them. I do not think any one of his illustrations carries the smallest conviction to any hon. Member upon whatever side of the House he sits. They are drawn from an unreal world and not the world of practical politics, and I venture-to say that by the exercise of an ordinary modicum of common sense the Irish Parliament and the Imperial Parliament will-make good progress under the scheme such as we propose.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINThe right hon. Gentleman twitted my right hon. Friend upon spinning webs out of his ingenious fancy. I wonder where the right hon. Gentleman gets his conception as to the probability of Irish policy when the Irish Parliament is assembled! What groundwork is there in his view for supposing that an Irish Parliament, composed in the main of Nationalist Members, or any Irish Parliament, will hold the same pedantic views about the fiscal question which are the peculiar property of right hon. Gentlemen opposite? If there is one 1055 thing more certain than another it is that it has always been the desire of the Nationalists of Ireland and the supporters of Home Rule to be able to protect and develop Irish industries. That is one of the principles they put most prominently forward in their speeches in Ireland in order to induce other Irishmen to become Home Rulers. We know that even English Free Traders, like the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington, frequently pointed to the Free Trade policy of this House as being responsible for disastrous consequences to Ireland. My hon. Friend has shown, and has taken a natural illustration to show, that by the power you give in the words to which he objects—that is the power to vary Customs and Excise, and to give bounties—you put it in the power of the Irish Parliament to establish an efficient system of protection, and the only question is do you want to do it, and, if you want to do it, why not say so? Do not pretend you do not want to do it or that you are not doing it when it is proved to you over and over again and you are unable to disprove that the powers you give under your Bill are quite sufficient to enable the Irish Parliament to do it if they wish to.
§ Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSONI regret I am unable to find in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General any argument which shows that this provision in the Bill is drawn from the world of practical politics, because there is an absence of any precedent for this provision either in dealing with this particular question of Home Rule for Ireland or dealing with any other part of the Empire. I do not think the Government have established the need for this provision. The Postmaster-General has said that to increase the Transferred Sum would not allow sufficient elasticity, but the whole sum that would be required to make good this provision, even if it lacked elasticity, would not be a large sum, and I, for one, am not prepared to oppose this power to vary Customs, which I do oppose, for reasons with which I need not trouble the House again, unless I supported at the same time the principle of adding to the Transferred Sum the amount which this provision for the varying of Customs would give if
§ ascertained. The argument that you cannot add to the Transferred Sum really cannot carry any weight when the sum involved is so small.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIt is not small.
§ Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSONIt is comparatively small. One could estimate, at any rate, what sum the power to vary Customs would bring in to the Irish Government, and I think it cannot amount to a very large sum.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI went into this the other day, and I think the right hon. Gentleman was not in his place. I pointed out that the yield of increased Customs Duty might amount to a very considerable sum. Would the right hon. Gentleman be willing to add to the surplus that is to be handed over to the Irish Parliament by the British taxpayer, amounting to nearly three-quarters of a million?
§ Mr. MUNRO-FERGUSONI doubt whether the sum will be three-quarters of a million, but I would sooner pay this three-quarters of a million than vote the power of varying Customs and Excise, which is prejudicial to the whole scheme of devolution. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman regards previous Home Rule Bills as being elastic because they did not contain these powers of varying Customs. There was no such provision before, and I think where the genius of the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors succeeded, perhaps he might succeed also. In my opinion there has been no argument to show any justification for giving these powers, instead of providing Ireland with adequate money to work successfully under Home Rule. I am positive of this, that the right hon. Gentleman will find out later on that the country would rather make a subsidy, even to the extent of three-quarters of a million than allow this impossible system to be adopted to the prejudice of any further system of devolution.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 167; Noes, 303.
1059| Division No. 326.] | AYES. | [5.0 p.m. |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Ashley, Wilfrid | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Astor, Waldorf | Barnston, Harry |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Baird, John Lawrence | Barrie, H. T. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Balcarres, Lord | Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Bird, Alfred | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Boyton, James | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bull, Sir William James | Harrison-Broadley, H, B, | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Butcher, John George | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hills, John Waller | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cassel, Felix | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Castiereagh, Viscount | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanier, Beville |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Horner, Andrew Long | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North) |
| Chambers, James | Hunt, Rowland | Swift, Rigby |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Ingleby, Holcombe | Sykes, Alan John (Chcs., Knutsford) |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Joynson-Hicks, William | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lewisham, Viscount | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Croft, Henry Page | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Winterton, Earl |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Mackinder, H. J. | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Macmaster, Donald | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Magnus, Sir Philip | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Malcolm, Ian | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Forster, Henry William | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Gardner, Ernest | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Younger, Sir George |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Goldman, C. S. | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Amery and Mr. Bigland. |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Bowerman, Charles W. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Cullinan, John |
| Adamson, William | Brace, William | Davies, E. William (Eifion) |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Brady, P. J. | Davies, Timothy (Louth) |
| Agnew, Sir George | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Dawes, J. A. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Burke, E. Haviland- | De Forest, Baron |
| Arnold, Sydney | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Delany, William |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Denman, Hon. R. D. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Devlin, Joseph |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Ballour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Dillon, John |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Doris, W. |
| Barnes, G. N. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Duffy, William J. |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Barton, W. | Clough, William | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clynes, J. R. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts, St. George) | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Bentham, G. J. | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipnerary, N.) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Cotton, William Francis | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Black, Arthur W. | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Boland, John Pius | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Falconer, J. |
| Sooth, Frederick Handel | Crooks, William | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lynch, A A. | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Rencall, Atneistan |
| Field, William | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Ricnardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | McGhee, Richard | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roberts. Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Macpherson, James Ian | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gill, A. H. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Robinson, Sidney |
| Ginnell, Laurence | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Glanville, H J. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roche, John (Galway E.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Rowlands, James |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Russeil, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Meagher, Michael | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Seaman, Thomas |
| Hackett, J. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Millar, James Duncan | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Molloy, M. | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Molteno, Percy Auport | Sheehy, David |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Mooney, John J. | Smith, Albert (Lancs, Clitheroe) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Morgan, George Hay | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morison, Hector | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Snowden, Philip |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Muldoon, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hayward, Evan | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, W.) |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Neilson, Francis | Sutton, John E. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Henderson, John M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Thomas, James Henry |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hinds, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thorne, W. (West Ham) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hodge, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Doherty, Philip | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Donnell, Thomas | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Holt, Richard Durning | O'Dowd, John | Wadsworth, J. |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Grady, James | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Malley, William | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Waring, Water |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Shee, James John | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Webb, H. |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jowett, F. W. | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir T. P. |
| Joyce, Michael | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham | Whyte, A. F. |
| Keating, M. | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pointer, Joseph | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pollard, Sir George K. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Lambert, Richard (Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pringle, William M. R. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Young, William (Perthshire, E.) |
| Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Reddy, Michael | |
| Lundon, T. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
§ Mr. CASSELI beg to move, in Subsection (1), to leave out the words "and to impose in Ireland any independent tax not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax."
1060 In proposing this Amendment I desire at once to protect myself against the charge which may possibly be made against me that I said yesterday, when, dealing with the question of the Irish Parliament the Bill was fiddling with 1061 Imperial taxes, and that while I would not so strongly object to the Irish Parliament having the power to impose independent taxes, the riddling with Imperial taxes has gone through, and now we come to these independent taxes. I should like to say at once to the Postmaster-General that if the Government meet the points which I am going to put, I may be willing to consider whether I shall press this Amendment to a Division or not. I am afraid the Solicitor-General did me an injustice yes-derday, when I did not like to interrupt him because he was being fired at by hon. Member behind him. The Solicitor-General said I complained that the powers of the Irish Parliament in this respect-were too wide, and that afterwards I complained that they were too small. I was dealing with the power to reduce taxation, which has gone, and I was arguing that the power of increasing taxation should also go. Upon this Amendment the first difficulty is the question of interpretation. It is said that all these independnet taxes which the Irish Parliament may impose must be taxes which are "in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax." These are blessed words, and they are sprinkled like salt over this Bill, to make it here and there a little more acceptable. The Joint Exchequer Board will be confronted with an almost impossible task which ought not to be left to a Board of this description, because they will have to determine whether these taxes are substantially the same in character as other taxes.
Is a Property Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax, and is that a question which you are going to leave to this body of five to determine quite independently of Parliament? If they held that the Property Tax was not substantially the same in character as an Income Tax, the result might be that the whole provision to limit the powers of the Irish Parliament with regard to Income Tax would be rendered nugatory. Is a Corporation Tax substantially the same as an Income Tax? Is a business or a trading licence substantially the same as an Income Tax? The Committee will have to make tip its mind what is meant by the phrase, "substantially the same in character." Does it mean the same character from the point of view of its incidence on the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Exchequer? There is no guidance whatever to the Joint Exchequer Board as to the principle on which it ought to proceed. I will go 1062 so far as to say that there are very few independent taxes which I should not be prepared to argue either that they were or were not substantially the same in character. It is said that an appeal is to be granted to the Privy Council on this question, and I should like to have it made quite clear whether that appeal is to be granted, and this seems to be an appropriate opportunity for the Government to make a statement. If such an appeal is to be granted, I would like to ask the Attorney-General how is it to be dealt with from the point of view of the subject, and when is the subject to have his opportunity for an appeal?
The important point is that the subject should have that right of appeal. On this point the answer of the Postmaster-General was that the subject can raise the question in Court. But how can he do that? Supposing the tax is imposed upon grass land, and that tax has been levied for five years, and at last another Hampden arises in the county of Clare who disputes this question before the Courts, and refuses to pay his tax. What would be the question for the Courts to decide? Not whether this is substantially the same in character as the Undeveloped Land Duty, but whether, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, it is substantially the same in character. Will the Court have to adjourn the case in order to obtain the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, and, if so, how is the subject going to enforce his opinion before the Privy Council or the Joint Exchequer Board? Doubtless the Joint Exchequer Board will look at the matter from the point of view of the Treasury, and they will consider how much it interferes with the revenue of this or that country, rather than from the point of view of the incidence of the tax upon the subject. I do not know whether I have made my point clear or not, but it seems to me that the question might be determined by the Joint Exchequer Board in the absence of the subject without him having any opportunity of being represented either through counsel or personally. We know that in one case recently there was a case in which the subject appeared personally and successfully advocated his case. Is the case to be decided against the subject beforehand, without any opportunity of disputing the facts? How is he to get an appeal to the Privy Council? Those are the points upon which I should like to have some clear and definite explanation, because the Bill, to 1063 nay mind, from the point of view of the subject, is useless unless the subject has the right to exercise his right before the Joint Exchequer Board has pre-decided this question.
The vitally important point you have to decide is what "substantially the same in character" means from the point of view of the Exchequer or from the point of view of the subject. It is a very grave matter, because in reference to almost every independent tax you choose to name I think I could give you some very cogent arguments either way. The Government so far as indirect taxes are concerned, in theory at any rate, have attempted to exclude Protection. I do not say whether they are right or wrong in that. They have made the attempt, but I do not think they have made it successfully, although they think they have stopped up all the loopholes against Protection. Personally I do not think they have, but for argument's sake I will assume they have excluded discrimination. In the name of common sense what reason can there be when you adopt that line to allow these other independent taxes to be as protective and as discriminative as any Irish Parliament may choose to make them. Can they or can they not make them protective or discriminative? What about a duty upon commercial travellers' samples, or a duty upon advertisements? Probably the Postmaster-General will get up and say that I am not living in a world of reality, that I am spinning cobwebs out of a non-ingenious brain, and that these are on the branches of his tree. I venture to put it to the right hon. Gentleman that I am discovering weevils in his rotten tree. Here you have a real case, because I could name instances in our own Colonies where such duties have been imposed. There have been duties imposed on commercial travellers' samples and advertisements, and trading licences have been granted. The right hon. Gentleman seems to think it is outside the world of reality to impose trading licences or duties upon the sale of foreign commodities. I should recommend him to study the history of taxation; I should like to ask if either of the Law Officers of the Crown are prepared to say that it would not be competent for the Irish Parliament to impose a duty upon commercial travellers' samples or to make it a necessity to take out a trading licence to sell articles of foreign manufacture in that country. 1064 If they take refuge in Clause 2, Sub-section (7), I propose to answer that in advance. If they rely upon the words:
Trade with any place out of IrelandI would call their attention to the words in brackets("except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament.…")That is expressly expected. It is trade with any place out of Ireland except so far as trade may be affected by the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. If they imposed a duty upon commercial travellers' samples coming into Ireland from Lancashire, or any other part of England, or upon advertisements for the sale of English goods in Ireland, it is true it might be with reference to trade with a place outside of Ireland, but still it would be in the exercise of the powers of taxation given to the Irish Parliament. I venture to submit with some confidence that upon the true construction of this Bill there would be ample power given to the Irish Parliament to impose not only duties upon commercial travellers' samples and foreign advertisements, but also upon the sale in Ireland of articles manufactured abroad, which also is not a thing outside the world of reality as the right hon. Gentleman seems to suppose. There would be ample power to do all those things. I will give the right hon. Gentleman another case, not drawn from the world of unreality, and not one of those cobwebs which the right hon. Gentleman imagines I am spinning, but drawn from actual fact, given to me by persons who are apprehensive of it actually occurring. It has reference to insurance companies and companies of that-character now doing business in Ireland. Would there be anything to prevent the Irish Parliament imposing a special tax upon the branch of a foreign insurance company doing business in Ireland? I should like to have an answer from one of the Law Officers of the Crown to that question. My interpretation is that there is absolutely nothing in this Bill from start to finish to prevent it.You may take one theory or the other. You may say, "We are granting a Parliament to Ireland, and therefore we will trust them and allow them to protect and discriminate as much as they like." That is an intelligent view, but, if that is your view, why all these precautions to endeavour to stop discrimination with 1065 regard to indirect duties? It is inconsistency of that character I should like to have explained. If the Irish Parliament are going to have the power of independent taxation, it is absolutely monstrous that the English taxpayer should be called upon to pay the cost of collection. Again, I will draw my example, not from that region of fancy where cobwebs are spun, but from one of the most recent experiences of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself. This afternoon I obtained an answer from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that in the third year of their incidence, the three Land Taxes together, the Increment Value Duty, the Reversion Duty, and the Undeveloped Land Duty, produced in Ireland the magnificent grand total of £157. It would not be sufficient to pay the travelling expenses he allowed two Members of Parliament. When I asked the right hon. Gentleman the cost of collecting that £157 he showed the most surprising reticence and coyness. He referred me to answers which he had given to other Members which again referred to further answers, and in none of them can we find any real answer as to what this £157 cost in collecting.
§ Mr. CASSELI accept the right hon. Gentleman as an authority on all fiscal questions, but I am not quite sure I accept him as an equal authority on the question of legal interpretation, and, with all deference to the opinion expressed by him, it appears to me the Imperial Parliament would have to bear the cost of collecting these taxes. If I hear to the contrary from the Law Officers, it will surprise me very much.
§ Mr. LOUGHThe cost of collection would increase the amount of the deficit, which the Irish Parliament has to get rid of, and in that sense it is an Irish charge, just the same as old ago pensions and everything else which is reserved.
§ Mr. CASSELThose who imagine the time is near when the deficit is going to be got rid of may attach some weight to that, but we who do not think so do not attach very much weight to it. I put it, there cannot be any possible defence for imposing on the British taxpayer the cost of collecting any freak taxation which an Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer may choose to impose. He, from his point of 1066 view, will not care one iota what it costs. The question whether the deficiency is going to be wiped out by this extra amount or not is one which may come twenty years hence, but it will not come in our generation, and it is the taxpayer of the present day who is being unjustly treated. I would invite the right hon. Gentleman to leave the realm of fancy in which his imagination is now flitting about and to come to the ordinary case where a man has to collect a debt. Supposing somebody owes me a debt and I ask a solicitor to collect it for me, the solicitor does not pay the cost of collection, but I who receive the money. In the case of the Irish Parliament the right hon. Gentleman reverses the process and makes the British Parliament, which has to do the collecting, pay for the cost of collection. This cost of collection will involve very heavy litigation, and the cost of fighting all these cases up to the Privy Council will be borne by the British taxpayer. The question whether a Corporation Tax is of the same character as the Income Tax will have to be fought by the British taxpayer right up to the Privy Council, whilst the Irish taxpayer will get any proceeds resulting from that litigation. I submit that is a perfectly absurd conclusion. The three points upon which I invite the attention of the Government are: First, the question of interpretation; secondly, the question of protection and discrimination with regard to the independent taxes; and, thirdly, the question of the cost of collection.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI will leave my right hon. Friend the Attorney-General to reply to certain legal questions which the hon. and learned Member has raised. Let me answer two or three of his other points. I should like, in the first place, to say I should be the last man to suggest the hon. and learned Member has woven anything whether of substance or not out of a non-ingenious brain, for sitting here now for several weeks and listening to his many speeches on the subjects of Irish finance and the Home Rule Bill, I am filled with admiration, if I may respectfully say so, of the ingenuity and the skill with which he endeavours to pick a hole in that which we regard as stubborn and closely woven material, to use another metaphor. The hon. and learned Member has raised to-day two or three points of very considerable substance. He said we are giving to the Irish Parliament the power to devise and levy 1067 new taxes so long as they are not substantially the same as Imperial taxes, and that is not a practicable provision. It may be well, in the first place, to point out to the Committee the reason why this restriction is made. The financial scheme of the Bill is based on the proposal that the normal and natural increases of Imperial taxes should flow into the Imperial Exchequer with a view of paying off the deficiency; but as soon as that provision was inserted in the Bill it naturally occurred to us that if the Irish Parliament had power to repeal taxes—and we thought it very desirable—they should do it at their own expense. They might conceivably repeal an Imperial tax which was productive and increasing in its yield and substitute for it another tax under another name, but substantially the same in effect, and the increase of which would go into their own Exchequer instead of into the Imperial Exchequer. We thought that danger was not a very real one, but still it would have been a defect in the scheme if no provision had been made against the possibility. That is the source of and the reason for this part of the Bill which provides that these taxes shall not be substantially the same. The hon. Member puts a number of ingenious conundrums or cases which might arise as to whether particular things are substantially the same.
§ Mr. CASSELOn a construction of the Act?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI do not know that you can lay down any principle of construction. It must necessarily depend upon the merits of the case. If there was any principle which could divide the two categories of taxes, we could undoubtedly insert it in the Bill.
§ Mr. CASSELIs it from the point of view of the taxpayer or from the point of view of the Treasury that this has been inserted?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI do not know that the points of view are necessarily different. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, oh!"] I do not think they are necessarily different. The tax is either substantially the same or it is not. If it is substantially the same in character, then the Treasury and the subject will both be affected by the fact of its identity. It is because it will be necessary, if these cases arise, to deal with them upon their merits that you must have some authority charged with 1068 the function of discrimination. The hon. and learned Member suggests that because there is a problem which will have to be solved by the Joint Exchequer Board that problem is therefore insoluble.
§ Mr. CASSELThe right hon. Gentleman is not correctly interpreting me. I suggested that if there was a difficult problem of this character it ought to be made certain the subject has a right of appeal before the case is prejudiced against him.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe hon. and learned Member also dwelt upon what he thought was the difficulty which would arise, apart from this question of appeal by the subject, in actually determining any of these cases upon their merits, and he left the impression upon the Committee that because there were possible difficult questions to be dealt with the scheme was therefore in itself impracticable. It is precisely because questions of some difficulty may arise that we have established a body of a more or less authoritative character like the Joint Exchequer Board to deal with those particular points on the merits of each case as it arises. Then the hon. and learned Members says, "Yes, but if the Irish Parliament might take other action afterwards, and the Joint Exchequer Board might raise difficulties." I think that, in practice, in all probability—of course, one cannot speak with certainty on a point which must necessarily arise in the future—but in practice the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer, before he proceeds with legislation of this kind—
§ Mr. CASSELMy point was that it would be decided beforehand.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe hon. Member is continually leading me off the one point. The question, whether or not the scheme is in itself practicable, is the question to which I am addressing myself, and I suggest that in practice what will occur will be that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will go to the Exchequer Board and get their opinion. The hon. Member has asked as to the appeal to the Privy Council, but I would point out that these questions cannot be considered by themselves; they must be considered in conjunction with the general question. It is proposed to amend Cause 29 by adding the following words:—
"The Lord Lieutenant or the Secretary of State may refer to His Majesty in Council for review the decision of the 1069 Joint Board on any question whether any independent tax imposed in Ireland by the Irish Parlaiment, is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. Upon the hearing of the question such persons as seem to the Judicial Committee to be interested may be allowed to appear and to be heard as parties to the appeal."
That is the procedure which, as at present advised, it is contemplated to adopt. Then the hon. and learned Member's second point was with respect to the cost of collection. He says that giving this power to the Irish Parliament to raise new taxes may involve the Imperial Exchequer in a large expenditure. Several hon. Members have criticised the Bill on this particular point, but Irish taxes in the main will be collected by the same officers as collect the present taxes. There may be exceptional cases, but, as a rule, the Irish taxes will be small in amount and merely an addition to Imperial taxes, and naturally they will be collected by the officers who collect the Imperial taxes. It would obviously be a most uneconomical thing to set up a new staff of tax collectors throughout Ireland for the purpose of collecting what may be quite small duties, and many of them mere percentage additions to existing duties! If there is to be only one staff of collectors it will necessarily be an Imperial and not an Irish staff. Then there comes a question whether it is worth while to assess the cost of collection of Irish taxes and to charge the Irish Government with that Amount.
In framing an Act of Parliament like this one has to consider the probabilities and possible inconveniences. It would be an extremely complicated matter of accounting to determine. For example, supposing the Irish Parliament fixed the Tea Duty at 5½d. instead of 5d., it would complicate the matter and there would have to be a calculation by the Exchequer as to the cost of collecting the extra ½d. Similarly it would have to have determined how much cost would be thrown on the Exchequer by an increase in the Beer Duty, and probably it would not be worth while working that out. It would involve, if you are to work it out with any approach to exactitude, a large amount of trouble which would be scarcely compensated by the result obtained. Furthermore, there is this other reason. The control of the tax-collecting system will be not in the Irish Parliament, but if the Irish, however, are to be made to pay the cost of collecting the Irish additions to an Imperial tax they 1070 will be asked to pay for a service over which they have no control. It will not be for them to say, What are to be the number of the officers or their salaries? That will be vested in the Board of Customs and Excise and the Board of Inland Revenue in England.
Sir GILBERT PARKERIs it the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman and of the Government that there will not be a possibility under Clause 14 of the transfer of this from the English to the Irish Government?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThere will be no such transfer, actually or technically, within the terms of the Bill, but it might be possible for the Government to transfer the work to the Irish Parliament. There is no such measure in prospect or contemplated to charge the cost of collection to the Irish Parliament. There remains this point with regard to the cost of collection, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for West Islington has pointed out, that, after all, is a matter of book-keeping. If the cost of collection goes up it will be an Irish charge and to that extent the Irish Government will have an inducement not to lay an excessive charge on the Imperial Government. I cannot admit that the taxes will be in any way protective. I do not know any case in any country in the world in which a tax is imposed on travellers' samples except by Customs Duty. If such a tax were imposed it would possibly be disallowed as being contrary to the plain intention of the Bill. As to the Excise Duty on commercial travellers' samples, is it likely that such a tax would be imposed? Naturally we want to offer the utmost possible inducement to encourage, to the greatest extent within our power, commerce between the two countries. It is not likely that the Irish Government would tax commercial travellers' samples from Lancashire, seeing that almost the whole of their trade is with Great Britain.
§ Mr. CASSELBut you admit that there is the power to do so.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI have not considered that. I should not like to answer that question without notice. It is the first time the point has been raised. Lastly, let me point this out to the Committee. The Irish Parliament is to have no power to vary any Imperial tax. On that basis this House has passed the Second Reading of the Bill. I suggest that the position is impossible in this 1071 respect. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for South Birmingham, there is no federation in the world where constituent States have power to vary the Customs. We propose nothing of the kind, and, for this reason, I trust the Committee will not accept this Amendment.
§ Mr. MITCHELL - THOMSONThe answer of the right hon. Gentleman is really most remarkable. Let me take three of his points. The first question which was put by my hon. Friend was, Is it not possible that a protective duty may be imposed by the Irish Parliament? Is it not possible that the Irish Parliament may put on taxation which will have a protective effect? The reply of the Postmaster-General was, "I do not know, I have not thought it out." That, I submit, is a most remarkable position.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIt had relation only to commercial travellers' samples.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONIt has not been suggested that this is a tax which is actually in existence.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELAn Excise tax.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThe tax which is to be imposed is to be an independent tax, and it seems to me perfectly clear that the Irish Parliament would have power to impose it as an Excise Duty.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI should like the hon. Member to refer mc to any authority with regard to the imposition of an Excise Duty on foreign commercial travellers' samples.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONI am quite prepared to admit there may not be such a case, but it will be possible to impose such a duty under this Bill. I do not know, neither does the right hon. Gentleman know, what may occur, but it is possible such a duty might be levied. I understand it is not provided against.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIt is a question of machinery.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThat is not the concern of the Irish Parliament. That touches the second point to which I am coming. The Irish Parliament have not to trouble themselves with the machinery by which a tax is to be levied. All they have to say is that a tax shall be levied, and they turn to the Imperial 1072 Parliament and say, "You must provide the machinery for it." The second point of the right hon. Gentleman was the question of the cost of collection. My hon. and learned Friend pointed-out the very great objection which has always been taken to these powers from this side of the Committee, because the Irish Parliament might invent any kind of freak taxation, which is only going to bring in the smallest amount of revenue, while the British taxpayer will have to bear the cost of its collection. The Postmaster-General says that it is not likely that the cost of collection would be very large. He said not one single word about the instance my hon. Friend suggested, in which that cost of collection might be sollen by the fact that the Irish Parliament might have to enter into a long course of litigation in connection with the tax. I do not suppose the right hon. Gentleman will say that is impossible, because there have been cases even within living memory in which Governments have had to enter into protracted litigation in connection with taxes. Does he suggest that that is not likely to occur under the powers given to the Irish Parliament?
I cannot see why, if you are apportioning the cost of the Joint Exchequer Board between the British and the Irish Parliaments, you should refuse to apportion the cost of collection of taxes between those Parliaments. What was the right hon. Gentleman's justification for his refusal? He gave two reasons. In the first place, that it is difficult to get a precise determination; and, secondly, that the Irish Government will have no control over the appointment of officials. As to the first point, will it really be so difficult to precisely determine the cost of collection, within reasonable limits, of the Irish taxes? It may be difficult, but it will not be half so difficult as to determine what share of the taxes belongs to the Irish Government. You set up this Board and lay upon it the most difficult duty of determining what share of the proceeds of a tax should properly be allotted to the Irish Exchequer, and yet you say, in the same breath, that it is impossible to determine what share of the cost of collection ought to fall on the Irish Exchequer. I say that if you can do the one thing you can do the other. As to the second suggestion, that it will be inadvisable to charge any of the cost of collection to the Irish Exchequer, because the Irish Parliament will have no control over the 1073 officers who are to collect the taxes, that opens up a most interesting vista of possibilities. Is it true that the Irish Government will have no say as regards the number of officials to be appointed to collect any tax Supposing the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer puts a tax upon the land held by graziers in Ireland. Is it suggested by the Government that he will have no voice at all as to the number of officials to be appointed to supervise the collection of that tax? If that is so, do not the Government think that there are possibiliics of the greatest friction there. Suppose the tax is not remunerative. Suppose the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it is not remunerative enough. He turns to the British Government and says, "It would be all right if only you gave me more officials to collect it." Can it be suggested that he will have no voice in determining the machinery of collection? Of course he will have a voice. He will suggest what he wants to the Imperial Parliament, and they will have to give it to him, and the Imperial Taxpayers will have to pay for it.
As to the third point, that any increase in the cost of collection will swell the deficit and so postpone the end of the deficit period, and the period of revision, that is quite true. The Postmaster-General and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Islington (Mr. Lough) are in a hurry to see the end of that period. I do not believe that the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in any great hurry to arrive at the end of the deficit period. The end of that period means a state of affairs when contributions will be expected and demanded from Ireland towards Imperial expenditure, and I do not think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will be in a hurry to arrive at the end of that period. I do not think we shall ever see the end of it, and I think the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will Take care that the accounts never do balance, or, if they do balance at the end of two years, he will see that they do not balance in the third year. I turn to the question of the substantial identity of the taxes. I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has fully appreciated the point made by my hon. and learned Friend. The point really is this: When is the determination to be made as to whether a tax is substantially the same or is different? The right hon. Gentleman's answer to that is, that no doubt, the Chancellor of Exchequer in Ireland will consult the Joint Exchequer 1074 Board before he brings in his taxes, and get their opinion. The Committee will remember that under Clause 10 no Vote or Grant of public money, and no Appropriation Bill, can be passed by the Irish Parliament except in pursuance of the recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had it been possible to discuss that Clause—I only pause to observe that that Clause, a most important Financial Clause, has never received a word of discussion—some of my hon. Friends were prepared to propose that Bills imposing taxation should be subject to the same restriction, namely, that they should also have to proceed upon a recommendation from the Lord Lieutenant. Had that been done the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman as to consulting with the Joint Exchequer Board could have been carried out, and a certificate could have been obtained from: the Lord Lieutenant.
The right hon. Gentleman does not appreciate the serious objection to consulting the Joint Exchequer Board. If the Joint Exchequer Board say that the tax is substantially the same, and it is not brought forward, that is all right. If, on the other hand, they say the tax is not substantially the same, and the taxing Bill can go on, then the subject in Ireland may be liable to be taxed under a Bill on which the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board has been obtained, and after an inquiry at which the subject has had no chance of being represented. It is suggested that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Ireland should go privately, or semi-officially to the Board before he brings in his Bill, and should ask for our opinion on the proposed tax. That is all right, so far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Irish Government are concerned, but the subject is never represented at that inquiry, and never gets a chance of stating his views. If he had, he might have boon able to convince the Joint Exchequer Board that the tax ought not to be imposed. That is the difficulty the Government are in. They say it will be possible later on for the subject to bring the matter to determination in the Law Courts. I confess I do not think that that is so, even under the Amendment the Government has suggested. If I apprehend the Postmaster-General aright, his suggestion is, under Clause 22 or Clause 29, that the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State is to be empowered to go to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for a determination as to the rights or wrongs of the 1075 proceedings of the Joint Exchequer Board in determining the question of independent taxation. But who is to move the Lord Lieutenant? Quis custodiet upsos custodes? Where does the subject come in? There is no power to the subject to set the machinery in motion. The right hon. Gentleman has not completely answered the arguments of my hon. and learned Friend, and I hope that possibly the Attorney-General may be able to give some further explanation of the points which have been raised, which, I think, he will agree are substantial points.
§ Mr. NEWMANThe Postmaster-General seems to think he has put my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Cassel) in the hollow of a cleft-stick. That may or may not be the case. There are no cobwebs about this question, and taxpayers in Ireland will be grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for raising this question. There is no doubt that the Irish Parliament, if ever it is set up on College Green, will have to raise money. How is the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer going to raise it? I submit he will not get money from the centimes additionnels—from the extra taxes on tea, coffee, tobacco, and sugar coming into Ireland. If he puts a swingeing tax on Messrs. Murphy's stout and Jameson's whisky his life will not be worth a moment's purchase. If he wants an extra tax he has got to get it from the one thing Ireland has to tax—that is the land. There are no cobwebs about that. Once this miserable set of Financial Clauses is passed, it becomes merely a question how the money is to be raised— in what way the tax is to be put on the land, and on whom it is to be put. I do not suppose there is very much doubt as to who the first victims will be. I should like to ask the Attorney-General if he thinks that the tax I have suggested would be substantially the same as the taxes already proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? The first individuals to be taxed will be the landlords, the ex-landlords, and those men who own or farm a certain amount of land who are known as graziers. Supposing we had a Super-tax of 6d. in the £ put on the rents, as collected., of the Irish landlord, would that be a tax substantially the same as the taxes already levied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer over here? It would be a popular tax and an easy tax to collect. It would be put on as an incentive to the landlords to sell their land for 1076 what price they could get. Take another tax, which would be very popular, a tax of 1d. in the £ on the capital value of farms at £500 valuation and upwards. How would that work out? Take a man who farms or grazes a farm of £500 valuation. A 1d. in the £ on the capital value of that land would work out at £52 per annum. It would be a popular tax, a substantial tax, and a tax easy to collect. Would that be within the competence of the Irish Parliament?
6.0 P.M.
What engines of oppression those two taxes would be. It would not take very long for the landlords, the ex-landlords, who still live on their own demesne lands, and the unfortunate gentlemen called graziers to be taxed out of existence. The proceeds of the tax would go downwards, and the next person to be taxed would be the man with a small farm. Take a farm worth £20 a year. A penny in the £ on the capital value of that land means £2 1s. 8d. a year, in addition to the annuity he is paying to the British Government or to the landlord. It is a very good thing that the Excise officer who is to collect these taxes is going to be an Imperial officer. He wants to be a stout, brave man from England and a very well paid man. If he was an ordinary man who went round to collect the tax from the unfortunate owner he would not be alive very long. I should like to know if these are the sort of taxes which the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer can put on, and I should like to ask hon. Gentlemen from Ireland if these are the sort of taxes they are going to put on. Are they the sort of taxes they have in their mind to raise money to run Ireland with? We are told the Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer will have to go along and consult the Joint Exchequer Board as to whether or not the taxes would be legal. Can we imagine the hon. Member (Mr. Dillon) running along to the Joint Exchequer Board and asking them if they will give him leave to put 1d. in the £ on the capital value of graziers' land or 6d. in the £ on the rents collected by Irish landlords? Certainly not. The hon. Member, if he were Chancellor of the Exchequer, would clap on the taxes and risk the general Exchequer Board. That is perfectly certain. Are these taxes competent—1d. in the £ and a 6d. Super-tax on the rents collected by Irish landlords; and if any financier below the Gangway would tell us whether or not they are going to tax land in this way I shall be grateful.
Captain CRAIGI listened very carefully yesterday to the arguments from the Radical benches with regard to those powers of taxation to be allowed to the Nationalist Parliament, and all their arguments were that Ireland was really living the life of a rich man, and that it would suit her far better to depart from the high standard set by the rest of the United Kingdom, and cut her expenses and cut her method of living on quite a different scale. Now we hear exactly the same argument used or implied to-day. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lough) last night drew a pathetic picture on this very subject. He spoke very strongly against the Government on this point. Of course, he did not vote against the Government, but he certainly made the strongest possible speech against the Government, and it was all on the point that Irleand really did not require nearly so much money as was spent upon her, and that she ought to live the life of a poor relation and not for a moment strive to keep up the excellent standard which is set by the Imperial Parliament. That being so I cannot see why hon. Members opposite do not accept this Amendment at once and say it cuts out the possibility of the Nationalist party ever raising any more taxation on their own. They will not require to raise any taxation on their own because all hon. Members on that side are convinced that this Bill, if passed through, would allow Ireland to go backward instead of forward in the march of civilisation and the march of economic development.
I listened to the explanation of the Postmaster-General and he failed to deal with two or three very important questions. Surely if the Bill is to be thrust, as the Government threaten, upon an unwilling people, those people are entitled to have some indication of the class of taxation to which they will be subjected in future. There is not a farmer in Clare or Kerry who does not want to know whether under Home Rule his lands will be still further taxed, and according to this Clause, without the Amendment, apparently the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the hypothetical Parliament to be established in Dublin will have the power of taxing to any extent, irrespective of the real benefit of the country, and of course we in the North of Ireland have always stated that injudicious taxation of say, the linen industry would be fatal to the whole prosperity of the northern counties. I am quite sure that not one hon. 1078 Gentleman on the other side has the faintest idea of the ruin which would stare thousands upon thousands in the face if some protection was not put in against tampering with that industry which it has taken so many generations to build up. I know threats have already been made in Nationalist papers in Ireland that if they get Home Rule, one of the very first industries to be attacked is to be the great linen industry of the North of Ireland. Hon. Members say one thing in the House and another out of the House and, after all, the organs of Nationalist opinion in Ireland very often override the Nationalist party themselves and they have to voice the sentiments which are put before them by those who are stronger than themselves outside the House. That is one of the most serious positions which we would have to face in Ireland—the power of allowing the Nationalists, at random, for spite, such as they have shown in the past, to levy any tax on an industry which, as I say, has been built up in the North of Ireland after generations of hard work on the part of the people.
Does not the Attorney-General himself fear the natural result of this class of legislation? Another person, I am perfectly certain, who would also, unless this Amendment is accepted, be bound to be taxed is the foreign commercial traveller. We have already in Ireland societies who go round the country circulating the names of certain firms which only are to be dealt with. That is to say, a most persistent boycott is in existence against all northern firms, or those who refuse to cave in to the domination of the Ancient Order of Hibernians and other secret societies. I exhibited in this House a list for the Chief Secretary to examine for himself. Does anyone doubt that if it suited the Nationalist party to boycott English goods they could easily do it by clapping a tax on the commercial traveller and another tax of some sort on his samples? No one denies that for a moment. In Nationalist quarters in Ireland England stands as a foreign country. There is no such thing as talking about England being their best friend or anything of that sort. I cannot use the language in the House, but it is the Saxon, the foreigner—"Get rid of foreign rule out of Ireland," and so forth. Therefore you are immediately face to face with the fact that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the Nationalist Parliament 1079 wished to get up or take advantage of the strong anti-Saxon agitation, it would be possible to cripple any English industry in Ireland that they desire to cripple.
Another point would be with regard to the agencies or branches of large firms which have their headquarters in England. There is hardly a responsible, respectable insurance company in London or in Scotland that has not got its branches dotted all over Ireland, and these people are doing an enormous amount of business for the simple reason that they have in their employment English and Scotch clerks, who never give away any of the secrets of the firm and who do not allow it to be known what families in the districts have small annuities and so on, and the consequence is that you find, for the same reason, that the northern banks in Ireland have their large connections throughout the South and West because the staff clerks will not be intimidated by the local branches of the various leagues, and therefore the local people are quite content to come in and place their deposits in their safekeeping in preference to a purely national-run bank in Ireland, where we all know, from time to time, information is given to the heads of those leagues, for the very purpose of ascertaining who in the district have deposits that they can bring pressure to bear upon to get subscriptions to keep their concerns going. The large insurance companies do a fine business throughout Ireland for that very reason, and under this Clause, unless the Amendment is accepted, it would be possible for the Nationalist Parliament to put vexatious taxation on these various insurance companies and other large concerns which do such a big business in Ireland. That would be most regrettable. If there is one thing we ought to try to do in framing any measures, it is to prevent one section of the country exhibiting in any way its vindictive feeling by putting oppressive or vexatious taxes against the mother country, and therefore these particular points deserve the very closest attention of the Government. If there was any guarantee whatever that there was the slightest chance of business men running this new Parliament in Dublin, the right hon. Gentleman would probably be able to give an assurance that he would consult these business men, and would be able to make some sort of statement which would reassure people like my hon. Friend (Mr. Newman). People living in distant 1080 parts of the South and West would be, at all events, reassured if there was the slightest chance, as I say, of business methods being employed. But in every branch of Nationalist life in Ireland, you find an absolute want of business knowledge and business responsibility, and therefore, not only through vindictiveness, but also through ignorance, you are bound under these financial parts of the Bill to come to irreparable disaster.
§ Sir E. CARSONI wish to put to the Attorney-General one or two questions which arise upon this extraordinary provision—I do not suppose in any other Constitution in the world there is a provision like it with reference to the raising of taxation. I am not going into the question of whether it is right or wrong to give to the Irish Parliament a power of taxation. If the South and West of Ireland think it is a great benefit that they should have a body in Dublin which is able to put additional taxes on them in addition to the taxes put by this Imperial Parliament—if they think that is some thing worth having Home Rule for, I suppose, as we are in Committee upon the Home Rule Bill, we must leave them to enjoy the contemplation of that and say it is something which naturally arises from the setting up of the Parliament in Dublin. Indeed, up to the present, I have not heard it suggested by anyone on either side what single benefit Ireland is going to get except this double system of taxation which you are setting up under this Bill. What I have risen for is to try and find out what the Clause is supposed to mean, because I do not suppose you would find anything in the Bill to assist you in interpreting this Clause. You create a Parliament in the country, and then you say to that Parliament that it is to be able to impose taxation in that country so long as it is an independent tax—whatever that means—
"not being in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax….."
Could there be anything more extraordinary than such a provision as that? It is not a provision that the Irish Parliament may tax anything in Ireland so far as it is beneficial in their opinion for the Irish people. It is nothing of that kind at all. It is not the Irish Parliament which is to-judge whether the tax is a beneficial one, even although it is only to be levied in Ireland, but an outside body called the Joint Exchequer Board is to decide. Could you 1081 have anything more ridiculous? The Irish Parliament must first submit to the Joint Exchequer Board the request, "Are we, the Irish Parliament, entitled, in your opinion, to set up a tax that we think is necessary for the benefit of the country, for purpose of social reform?" or whatever may be the other reasons for which the Irish Parliament would impose the tax. Does the right hon. Gentleman really think that a system of that kind could have any possible duration if it is to be set up in relation to what is to be in reality a Parliament? The Postmaster-General told us that the matter does not end there. When you have taken the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board he told us, I think, that before an Act of Parliament was brought in at all the Chancellor of the Exchequer would go to this Joint Exchequer Board and ask their opinion upon the question whether he would be right in bringing in the Bill. That would be the preliminary step to bringing in a Bill in the Irish House of Commons. I take it, that is so.
Then look at the question which the Joint Exchequer Board have to determine. They have to determine whether in their opinion the tax is the same in character as an Imperial tax. That seems to me one of the most difficult, if not one of the most important, questions that could possibly be put before any Board. I will deal with that in a moment, for no explanation has been given of what the nature of the tax might be. The Chancellor of the Exchequer having gone to the Joint Exchequer Board and having put this question before them, certain parties are to be represented before they decide whether he is entitled to bring in his Bill, but the matter does not rest there. When the Board have given their opinion an application can be made by any party interested to come over here to England to the Privy Council, who will have power then to go into the matter. I would ask the Attorney-General what matter are they to go into? As I understand the Bill as at present drawn, the entire matter lies with the Exchequer Board. It is their opinion, and their opinion alone, which is to regulate the matter, and. if they give their opinion, what is the Privy Council going to inquire into over here? Is it going to inquire into whether the decision of the Exchequer Board is right, or are they to inquire into the question whether the Exchequer Board were of that opinion? The Attorney-General knows the difficulty of this class of question, but, so far as I can see, once 1082 you leave it to the opinion of the Exchequer Board, to give an appeal to the Privy Council is really nugatory, unless you are going to impute something like dishonesty to the Exchequer Board and say that this is not really their opinion, and that they could not have come to this opinion at all. What I wish to ask the Attorney-General is, What will be the respective functions of the Exchequer Board and the Privy Council by way of appeal when the matter comes over here?
There is behind that, of course, the important question of all, namely. What is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax? We have had no illustrations of that. Several questions have been asked in regard to the matter, and no answer has been given. I should like the Attorney-General or somebody to indicate to us what kind of taxes would be and what kind would not be substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I would like to put one or two specific cases to the Attorney-General. Suppose, for instance, that the Irish Parliament were to pass a Bill that there was to be an extra tax upon the profits of, say, the linen trade in the North of Ireland, would that be substantially the same as the Imperial Income Tax? That would be taxing the profits of a particular trade. Would that be a tax which the Irish Parliament might impose, or would that be substantially the same as the Income Tax, because the linen trade would have already paid the Imperial Tax upon its profits? I take the linen trade, but, of course, it would be the same as regards any other business. You might take the distilling business, or the brewing business, or whatever other industries you might find in Ireland, or indeed you might take as ray hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Craig) said, the question of the land. Would rents be treated as an additional tax on the head rents? For instance, the Imperial tax would be raised as Income Tax on farming profits, and, if so, would an additional tax, being in the nature of Income Tax, be substantially the same in character as Income Tax imposed by the Imperial Parliament?
That question must necessarily arise. It has arisen already in this country. Take the question of the Mineral Rights Duty which would be imposed as an extra Income Tax upon mineral rights under the Budget. It was pointed out over and over again tint it was nothing more than an Income Tax upon the produce of those 1083 mineral rights. If that is an extra duty under the Budget in relation to mineral rights, is that substantially the same in character as the Imperial tax upon income, and if not, what is the difference and what is the principle on which we are going to leave the whole of this matter at large, not to the Parliament in Ireland, but to the Exchequer Board, for their opinion—a Board which is to have power to regulate not only the Irish House of Commons, but to regulate also and to over-rule apparently this House of Commons? I suppose the Government have some conception in their mind of what kind of taxes could be set up, and I would ask the Attorney-General to tell us if there is any principle which can be or will be laid down in this Bill as the dividing line as to what is a tax substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax. I do not go into the question of the power of the Irish Parliament to raise taxes. What I should like to point out is that in every line, as we go on by these provisions and by the reference of these matters to tribunals, you are really laying the foundations of long and protracted litigation which can lead to nothing but friction as between the two parties.
Sir GILBERT PARKERPerhaps the Attorney-General will allow me to ask a question which he could answer in the course of his speech in order that we may understand the position of the Joint Exchequer Board in deciding as to any tax submitted to it. May I ask whether the Irish Treasury and the British Treasury, who will each appoint two Members, are to appoint them from the Treasury itself or from outsiders?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs)In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Gravesend, I would point out that there is nothing in the Bill to limit the choice of the Treasury as to the persons they would think proper to select both here and in Ireland. The main question which has been discussed on this Amendment was, I think, put by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Dublin University (Sir E. Carson) in the observations he made just now. As I understand the first objection raised was: that this matter, as to whether or not an independent tax is a tax which is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, is left to the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; that there is no sufficient means of reviewing their deci- 1084 sion, and that consequently subjects would be bound by the decision of the Board. It is to that matter, no doubt, that a great deal of criticism has been directed both on this occasion and in preceding Debates. What was said certainly on two occasions in my hearing—I said it myself once—was that we did intend to give some appeal from the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. My right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General read to the Committee today, not the Amendment we are putting down, but at any rate a suggestion with reference to it. It was not intended to be anything more than that, for undoubtedly points of considerable difficulty are raised. As the result of the discussion we had recently we have been considering the matter, and I am sure hon. Members will recognise that it is one which has to be reviewed with some care, and particularly when you are desiring by the Amendment to give an appeal which will be open to the subject. What is intended is not to confine the appeal merely to a Secretary of State or to the Lord Lieutenant; but we do intend that the appeal should be one of which the subject can avail himself, so that he would be entitled to raise this precise question if he desires to do so; and we have now to determine how that is to be done, and how the subject is to get to the Privy Council. I have stated quite clearly what the intention of the Government is in the matter, namely, that the subject should have in some form or the other the right to get to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, so that the Committee may review the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board. Under the suggested Amendment, as it stands at present, the initiative is in the Lord Lieutenant or a Secretary of State, who might refer this matter to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for their decision, and when once that is done no further question upon it could arise. That is to say, if this question has been referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the Judicial Committee has expressed its opinion upon it, and I will assume, for argument, that it agrees with the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, then it is useless for the subject, or any one else, to carry this question to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It differs from the ordinary case in which the subject is interested in this, that there is one question only to be determined, and which, when you answer it, you answer it for both countries—that is to say, here the only question that has to be 1085 determined is whether or not the independent tax imposed in Ireland is substantially the same in character as an Imperial tax, and once that has been answered, it is quite obvious that it will be impossible for any other question with regard to the same tax to be raised again before the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council.
§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSONThe point we were making was that the subject should have a chance of expressing his views before the question was answered, as otherwise it would be answered on an [...] parte statement.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSThat is exactly what I am dealing with. He should have an opportunity of presenting his views to the Privy Council before the Privy Council gives the answer, and what we have done, even so far as we have gone with the Amendment at present, was to say that upon the hearing of the question the Privy Council should give leave to any person who appeared to be interested to appear and argue before it. That seems to meet the objection raised by the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Undoubtedly the door ought to be open in the view of the Government for the subject to raise this question, even though it might be that neither Parliament desired to raise it.
§ Sir E. CARSONWill the subject be heard before the Joint Exchequer Board?
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSNo, that is a different question entirely.
§ Sir E. CARSONIt might save time.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSThe Joint Exchequer Board has nothing else to decide but tins one question which comes before it. It would have to consider, first of all, whether or not this is substantially the same tax. It expresses its opinion upon it. Then if there is dissatisfaction with that appeal, and it is thought that the opinion is wrong, there should be, in our view, an opportunity of taking this matter to the Privy Council; but it is unnecessary to do that until you have got the pronouncement of the Joint Exchequer Board. Once you have got that pronouncement, the door is thrown wide open, and no one will have any right to complain that he has not an opportunity of being heard, because it will be made quite clear. This is an answer to the question put to me by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and a very pertinent question, whether the appeal would be merely an appeal 1086 from the expression of opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board; but whether in language which is quite familiar to lawyers, and which, I think, would be understood by the Committee, the Judicial Committee should pronounce its view as to whether it comes to the same conclusion.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSI am really not able to answer that.
§ Mr. CASSELAssuming that the Lord Lieutenant does not move in the matter, and does not ask for an appeal, what right has the subject in the case?
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSIf the Lord Lieutenant did not move in the matter, then I should have thought it would be quite easy to have the petition made to him, and if there is any body of opinion at all dissatisfied with the decision of the Joint Exchequer Board that he would refer the matter to the Judicial Committee.
§ Sir E. CARSONYou may take it that there would always be a large body of opinion resisting.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSThen if that is the case, you can leave it as it is, and it makes it quite unnecessary for me to go a little further to make a better provision. But I think that it was not intended to shut, out the possibility of some further appeal, or some further right to the subject that I was intending to give. If the Lord Lieutenant will not move in the matter, then I should have thought that the question could be raised in Parliament, just exactly the same as the question could be raised in Parliament here. The Secretary of State might be asked whether he would refer it to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Every opportunity is given to raise it by the Amendment even so far as it goes. But in order that there should be no doubt I am prepared to go further and to introduce words, when we put the Amendment on the Paper, which will make it quite clear that the subject will have the right to be heard before the Privy Council upon this question, provided that he makes his application within some limited period. I do not say how many months should be the time that would be allowed, but it must be essential to know whether or not the Judicial Committee will agree with the Joint Exchequer Board, and if there is to be an 1087 appeal it must be quickly, and the decision must be obtained within a very short period.
With those observations I think I have satisfied the objections which were raised by hon. Members opposite upon this matter, and when the Amendment comes on the Paper I think that they will see that we have given effect to their views, and particularly that we have given effect to the suggestion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Trinity College. I desire to make it quite plain that when the Judicial Committee comes to consider it it will have to consider it not merely by technical reference to the opinion of the Board, but to determine for itself whether it comes to that conclusion—in other words, to determine it on the merits. That, I think, answers every question which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has put to me with reference to this matter. Another question has undoubtedly been raised during the course of this Debate. The right hon. and learned Gentleman, in the second part of his observations, referred to the independent taxes which may be imposed. He put a series of questions. I shall answer those by saying that you never can determine a question of that kind until you know the precise circumstances. I shall be quite prepared to say that if you are imposing a tax upon the balance of profit or loss of a business, that, of course, would be—so it occurs to me at the moment—substantially the same as an Income Tax. But you may impose various taxes on an industry which would not be taxed directly on the balance of profit or loss, and that is what an Income Tax is. Therefore I can quite conceive cases in which a tax would be imposed which would affect profits, but nevertheless would not be a tax in the nature of Income Tax. It is suggested by the hon. and gallant Gentleman who spoke before my right hon. and learned Friend that you will have taxation on the linen industry. He seems to think that it would be singled out in the first instance for taxation, for apparently the Members of the Irish Parliament, in dealing with matters of finance, would, in the view of the hon. and gallant Member, be actuated by revenge, and not, as I should have thought, by the desire to get money which could be used profitably in Ireland, and which they thought would be usefully derived from a particular industry or 1088 class of persons. Assuming that in the Irish Parliament you have considerations before them as to raising revenue, they have to say how that revenue is to be raised. It really does seem to me in the highest degree improbable—I will not use any stronger words—that when they who have to administer the affairs of Ireland in the Irish Parliament and are striving to make their Budget, and will have to commit their revenue, and will try to impose taxation, they will look forward to the thing which would be the best source of taxation—that is, the source which would be least harmful to Ireland and most beneficial to the community. There is very little doubt about that.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSAs I understood him, he referred to some observation which he had seen in a newspaper. I cannot conceive that it is any threat. I do not know w7hethcr he suggests that any hon. Member here has made a threat. I understood that that was not what he said; but if you are going to deal with the Irish Parliament and its system of raising finance upon the basis that it will not deal with finance from the aspect of finance, but simply with the desire to revenge itself upon those whom the hon. and gallant Gentleman thinks its enemies, then it is impossible for us to discuss finance at all.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEThat has never been done in this Parliament.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSThe hon. Member wishes no doubt to take me to another subject, but I know what he is talking about and I answer him emphatically in the negative.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEThe Licence Duties.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSI should have thought we had discussed that often enough to know what the answer is, and the hon. Member knows perfectly well that that tax, just the same as any other which he has in mind, certainly was not imposed for the purposes of revenge. We should have to go back to a very old discussion if we want to get into this region, and I do not propose to travel into it now. We are concerned at present with our scheme of finance here, and really, I am surprised when we come to consider the kind of criticism which has been directed to it. At one time it is said, as it was said when we were discussing Clause 2, 1089 you must exclude all power of taxation from Ireland. When that passed it is said, you must take away any power of raising Customs or Excise Duty. That we have been discussing to-day. Then we come to the third question. They say you must exclude from Ireland all power of raising independent taxes. Then when you have done all that I would really ask hon. Members opposite what do they consider would be left for Ireland, for its revenue? It is the same old story which has been heard so often and which I only venture to repeat in order to save having to go in detail into what has been said by hon. Members opposite. They are considering this system of finance in the Bill with the idea that Members of Parliament in Ireland will be actuated by wicked minds. If that is the case it is quite useless for us to repeat the language which we have already repeated. We take a contrary view and we think that when they are exercising their powers in the Irish Parliament they will seek to administer affairs as they think best for the needs of Ireland. The views between us are so conflicting that I am afraid that we cannot reconcile them, and we must be content to leave it there as we had to do at various other points in this Debate.
§ Mr. CASSELWill the right hon. Gentleman deal with the question of Clause 2, Sub-section (7), as to whether it does not in fact authorise the Irish Parliament to impose protective duties of the character I have indicated.
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSThe hon. and learned Gentleman is putting a question to me which it is quite impossible for me to answer. I cannot express an opinion as to whether a case comes within this particular Clause until I know the facts, and it certainly would be very wrong for me to express, across the floor of the House, merely upon a statement made by the hon. and learned Member in regard to it, an opinion which might afterwards be used against me on a subsequent question.
§ Mr. CASSELI was putting a perfectly general question, whether it would be possible to impose special discriminative taxes against goods manufactured abroad.
§ Mr. BUTCHERIt appears to me that the Lord Lieutenant may put the Privy Council in motion on an appeal from a decision of the Joint Exchequer Board in regard to these matters. Can the right hon. and learned Gentleman tell the Committee who sets the Lord Lieutenant in motion? Will he act on the advice of the Irish Ministers or on his own initiative? If he acts on the advice of Irish Ministers, it seems to me the whole proceeding is perfectly futile. Ex-hypothesi the Irish Parliament proposes to levy a tax, and the Exchequer Board may decide that it is right; then somebody wants to appeal, and he asks the Lord Lieutenant to say that the tax should not be levied. Then the Lord Lieutenant refers to the Irish Ministers, who advise him not to put the Privy Council in motion. How is the Lord Lieutenant to act? It is a material question, and can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether the Lord Lieutenant, in the exercise of his power, will act on the advice of Irish Ministers or on his own motion? If he has to neglect the advice of Irish Ministers, will not that put him in an awkward position?
§ Sir RUFUS ISAACSI have dealt with that point already. The Lord Lieutenant would no doubt act on the advice of Irish Ministers, but I can quite see that cases might arise where petitions would be presented, and the Lord Lieutenant might refer the matter to the Privy Council.
§ Mr. BUTCHERI will put a question on the Paper.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 178.
1093| Division No. 327.] | AYES. | [6.50 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Beck, Arthur Cecil |
| Adamson, William | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury) | Bentham, G. J. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Bethell, Sir John Henry |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Black, Arthur W. |
| Allen, A. A. (Dumbartonshire) | Barnes, George N. | Boland, John Pius |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles Peter (Stroud) | Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick B.) | Booth, Frederick Handel |
| Arnold, Sydney | Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Bowerman, C. W. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Barton, W. | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) |
| Brace, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brady, P. J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | O'Connor, T. P. Liverpool) |
| Bryce, John Annan | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon, S.) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Burke, E. Haviland | Higham, John Sharp | O'Dowd, John |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hinds, John | O'Grady, James |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Hodge, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hogge, James Myles | O'Malley, William |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Shee, James John |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Clough, William | Hughes, S. L. | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clynes, John R. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt Hon. Sir J. | Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Phillips, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Pirie, Duncan V |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cullinan, John | Jowett, Frederick William | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Joyce, Michael | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Radford, George Heynes |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kilbride, Denis | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dawes, J. A. | King, J. | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Reddy, Michael |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dillon, John | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Leach, Charles | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Doris, William | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Duffy, William J. | Lewis, John Herbert | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaves) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lundon, T. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lynch, A. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary) | McGhee, Richard | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | Macpherson, James Ian | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Falconer, J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rowlands, James |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | M'Curdy, C. A. | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ffrench, Peter | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Field, William | M'laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Manfield, Harry | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Gill, A. H. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Sheehy, David |
| Ginnell, Lawrence | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meagher, Michael | Shortt, Edward |
| Glanville, H. J. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Menzies, Sir Walter | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Millar, James Duncan | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molloy, Michael | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Molteno, Percy Alport | Snowden, Philip |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Guest, Hon. F. E. (Dorset, E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Spicer, Rt. Hon Sir Albert |
| Gulland, John William | Mooney, J. J. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Sutherland, John E. |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Sutton, John E. |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Muldoon, John | Tennant, Harold John |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Nannetti, Joseph | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Needham, Christopher T. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Neilson, Francis | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Nolan, Joseph | Wadsworth, John |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hayward, Evan | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Nuttall, Harry | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Waring, Walter | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) | Wiles, Thomas | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Wilkle, Alexander | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Webb, H. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Whitehouse, John Howard | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | Gulland and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Forster, Henry William | Mildmay, Francis Bingham |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Gardner, Ernest | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Moore, William |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Goldsmith, Frank | Mount, William Arthur |
| Ashley, W. W. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baird, J. L. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newton, Harry (Kottingham) |
| Balcarres, Lord | Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Helmsley, Viscount | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Bird, A. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Boles, Lt.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hewins, William Herbert Samuel | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Boyton, J. | Hills, J. W. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hohler, G. Fitzroy | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanier, Beville |
| Campion, W. R. | Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Horner, A. L. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Houston, Robert Paterson | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Swift, Rigby |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hunt, Rowland | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunter, Sir Charles Roderick | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Joynson-Hicks, William | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Chambers, James | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kerry, Earl of | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kimber, Sir Henry | Touche, George Alexander |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Knight, Captain E. A. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Larmor, Sir J. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lewisham, Viscount | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Winterton, Earl |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Croft, H. P. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Dixon, Charles Harvey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Mackinder, Halford J. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Macmaster, Donald | Younger, Sir George |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Fell, Arthur | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Captain |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Craig and Mr. R. MacNeill. |
| Fleming, Valentine |
§ Mr. HEWINSI beg to move, in Subsection (1), after the word "limitation" ["the following limitations"], to insert the words, "(a) The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
1094 7.0 P.M.
In submitting that Amendment may I express my amazement at the rapidity with which the party opposite is becoming deeper and deeper involved in the policy of Protection. I take the series of Amendments which we have considered during the last few days, and in every one they 1095 have taken a step which brings them nearer and nearer to the adoption of that policy, and now, by this Amendment, we have, if I may say so, a test case. Are the party opposite going to vote for or against this Amendment? There is no possible room for misapprehension on the subject. Bounties are everywhere considered the essential mark of Protection everywhere. You may have a system of Import and Export Duty which is not Protection. The greatest economists in the Free Trade movement have always given their approval to certain classes of Import Duties which they did not consider protective, and it is perfectly open to a Free Trade party to adopt a moderate system of revenue from Import Duties, even though they give a microscopic Protection, which would not be a serious infraction of the Free Trade principle. With regard to bounties, the case is absolutely different. Universally in this country and on the Continent in the writings of all great economists the bounty is the sign of Protection. So much so is that the case that Continental writers, in looking up what we may call the fiscal policy of the United Kingdom, or many among them, are found who say it is a case over again of "perfidious Albion," and that in regard to certain important branches we have never given up the system of Protection. They say we have never given up the system of Protection with regard to our shipping and shipbuilding, owing to certain methods we have practised, and which, they say, constitute bounties on those particular industries. Therefore, they say, that it is absurd for us in this country to say that we are Free Traders as long as we retain those particular methods. In the very short time we have for the discussion of this important subject, now less than half an hour, I am not going once more over the case I gave the House yesterday in arguing the point of Order as to the very numerous methods by which a country may give bounties.
I can fall back on the Board of Trade publications and Reports and on the Consular Reports issued by the Foreign Office, and in which there are so many ways enumerated in which bounties can be given and are given by the exercise of powers of taxation, such as we are giving to the Irish Parliament under this Bill. Therefore, I am not going to labour that case. I would put it this way, that the view taken by the Postmaster-General that the expres- 1096 sion bounty is to be confined to a direct payment in encouragement of exports is not the usual sense in which that term is used at the present time, nor is it the usual form which a bounty takes under the tariff system of the different countries in Europe. That is, if I may say so, a mere text-book phrase, and it is only another example of what I referred to last night, namely, of the facility with which the Postmaster-General, with his very wide knowledge on economic subjects, is able to invent formulæ to induce the Liberal party to vote for a system of Protection. I am going to assume that if what the Postmaster-General said about the intention of the Government is correct, either the Government is bound to accept this Amendment, or else it is with equal certainty committing the whole of the Liberal party to the system of Protection which the word "bounty" summarises and expresses. There is no escape from that. I venture to assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that whatever the Postmaster-General may say, whatever unction those people may lay to their souls that they are not voting for Protection, with the most perfect frankness, that we are going to explain throughout the country with fullness of detail the precise significance of the action by which the Liberal and Free Trade party has been induced to vote for a policy of Protection. I put in this warning that the British elector will forgive very much, but there is one thing they will never forgive, and that is the failure to play straight with these great questions of finance.
What is the position in Ireland? I wish to look at what we may call the atmosphere in which the Government has introduced these proposals. We know perfectly well what Irishmen think about these questions. There is no misconception about that. They are perfectly straightforward about it. I have often attacked Members of the Nationalist party, but one thing I have never denied, and that is that they are perfectly straightforward. I do not complain of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway for getting this Government to bring the Gentlemen opposite to vote for this policy. It is very natural if they can upset the Liberal party on formulæ, and so much to the credit of the brains of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. Hon. Gentlemen opposite should have more knowledge of the subject and acquaintance with the details, and if they are taken in they have them- 1097 selves to blame for the consequences. What is the state of opinion in Ireland? It is universally admitted. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Water-ford (Mr. John Redmond) shakes his head, but some years ago, along with my right hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Mr. Chaplin). I had the opportunity in Dublin of hearing a great, deal of evidence from representative people all over Ireland, and we found substantially no difference whatever. There were differences on points of detail, no doubt, but the general desire for a protective system in Ireland was unanimous. In fact, so much was that the case, and my right hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong, we were universally congratulated in Ireland because we advocated a system which harmonised all the conflicting interests in Ireland. We actually had in Dublin a banquet attended by Nationalists and Unionists, and the one thing they were unanimous about was the desirability of a protective system, for Ireland.
I do not depend in the least upon a mere expression of opinion. I have got the facts of actual organisations that exist in Ireland at the present time. You have got all over Ireland industrial organisations, the object of which is to secure for Irish industries and Irish manufactures even the meagre protection which can be obtained under the present system. We have those associations all over Ireland. We have the business experience of people who have trade relations with Ireland. In order to elucidate this question I have taken the trouble to make inquiries amongst business firms which have relations with Ireland. Under the idea of the sentimental preference which is being encouraged everywhere in Ireland for the purchase and sale of Irish goods, their commercial travellers are told over and over again that no further orders can be given. I have not the time now to give the details of this matter, but if the hon. and learned Member for Waterford or anybody else wishes to know I am perfectly willing to show them the evidence of those firms, and the names of those firms, and to give them this conclusive proof, that if Ireland is determined on any one thing it is determined to carry out this policy of Protection. And why should they not be? I know very well we have the notion in England in some quarters that Irish economic activities consist of the linen industry and shipbuilding, and that for the most part all the rest is agriculture. As a matter of fact, if you 1098 examine the Census Returns, you will find there is an exceedingly wide range of Irish industries. Those Irish industries, as we have pointed out, have been severely prejudiced by the policy the United Kingdom has pursued during the past sixty years. But there is no reason why those industries should not be put on their legs again, and it is perfectly legitimate on the part of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to aim at reviving those industries by any method which is open to them under the system of government which is now proposed. We may be perfectly certain that one of the earliest things an Irish Parliament would have to deal with would be to devise methods within the four corners of your Home Rule scheme to encourage Irish industry by remissions of taxation, by direct payments, and by other fiscal methods.
The method of giving bounties is exceedingly well known. Our firms in England constantly receive invitations from the United States and from Continental countries like Roumania and many other parts, to set up their manufactures in those countries—on what terms? Why, on the terms of the remission of taxation. It is a perfectly well-known method of granting a bounty to industries. I am not going to be out of order, but I could describe other methods by which those bounties are given. We may be perfectly certain that the strongest pressure will be brought to bear on the Irish Parliament to exercise the powers they possess in giving encouragement to industries in the way I have described. I say they are bound to do it. We are not legislating, I suppose, for next year or the year after. We are legislating for a long period of time. How in the world is Ireland to escape the financial embarrassment this Bill will bring on her unless she takes steps to increase the productivity of Ireland? Will the Irish succeed in working a bounty system? I say hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are bound by their own admissions to admit that they will succeed to a certain extent. All the arguments at the back of the land policy and the scheme of taxation they have supported goes upon this, that the incidence of rates is of a certain kind. Why? Because under the system of competition if you have differences of level you are bound to have those things adjusted, and you are bound to have a number of firms given advantages such as I have described. They can do it, and Ireland has done it 1099 before in the eighteenth century. It was a common method, by which Ireland sought to increase its industries to give bounties, and if they are called on to grant those exemptions and those discriminations in taxation they can do it, and none of the explanations from the Treasury Bench have convinced me that they have thought of how the Joint Exchequer Board or anybody else is going to prevent them.
What is the probable result? I say that the first result will be a great increase of friction. You have only to look through the evidence of business firms to see how deeply they resent the methods already adopted in Ireland for giving that sentimental encouragement to Irish products. I am perfectly certain that once that country embarks on that policy, you will find friction increasing by leaps and bounds. Apart from that, it must lead to the accentuation of differences between the two countries. It must lead to the growth of new vested interests, and in this connection I would point out that under the truncated Amendment of the Postmaster-General what is left to the Irish Parliament is this, and that is the final power under a tariff when, if ever, our fiscal system is reorganised, or suppose there was any drain on the finances of this country, or any departure from the present system, then you put into the hands of the Irish Government the most powerful means known to civilised tariff countries of bringing pressure to bear, and that is the power of penalisation and retaliation, under the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. Great frictions are likely to arise from those differences of system. We stand on this ground. We are absolutely against any difference of any kind between Great Britain and Ireland. We stand for the fiscal unity of the United Kingdom. Guarantee that fiscal unity, which has been accepted in times past by Protectionists, by Tariff Reformers, by Free Traders, and by every great financial statesman, and you can begin to talk about Ireland. But if you are going to begin by breaking up that fiscal unity, and then give to the Irish Parliament power to accentuate those differences and to produce friction between the business men and working men of Great Britain and Ireland, I say that you are acting contrary to the interests of the Kingdom and of the Empire. I do not know that we have any Free Trade party now. I do not think we have; but there may be a few people left on the other side with some 1100 relics of their convictions as Free Traders. If there are, they are bound to vote against bounties in Ireland. It is not so much the principle of Protection. All the discussions that we have had have brought more and more into relief the conclusion that what really stands between that side and this is not so much the question whether you may or may not depart from the principles of Free Trade, but whether on the one side you will disintegrate, or, on the other, consolidate the Empire. It is the Empire question that is at the back of all this. Future generations will bear me out that that is the significance of the votes that hon. Members are giving in this great Home Rule controversy on this point. Do not make any mistake about it. The power to grant bounties is the most distinctively protective measure you could possibly adopt, and by adopting it you scrap your record and your pledges, and you deal a blow at the integrity of the Empire.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI suppose that in this House there are no hon. Members who are more convinced and active Tariff Reformers than the hon. Member for South Birmingham (Mr. Amery), and the hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Hewins). It is amusing that today those two hon. Members have both moved Amendments to this Bill seeking—
§ Mr. HEWINSI do not want to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman, but in the few minutes available I beg him not to misrepresent Tariff Reformers
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI do not think that in these introductory sentences I have misrepresented anybody or anything. Does the hon. Member deny that he is an active, leading, and influential Tariff Reformer, or that the hon. Member for South Birmingham occupies a similar position, or that they are both convinced Tariff Reformers? Yet these are the two hon. Members to whom we have listened to-day moving Amendments to the Bill in speeches in both of which they dwelt upon the inconveniences and drawbacks as regards Ireland of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIn the case of the Irish Government the drawbacks and friction of the very system which they wish to introduce between us and—
§ Mr. HEWINSNo.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI do not wish to misrepresent anyone.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI was going on to say, the system which they wish to introduce into the relations between this country and foreign countries. I think the hon. Member will not deny that he for one is anxious to establish a system of tariff alterations which would affect the relations between ourselves and foreign countries.
§ Mr. HEWINSIs Ireland a foreign country?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELWe have had to-day an instance of the denunciation of sin from quarters where that is not expected.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELWe are at issue with the hon. Member on this Amendment on two points, one a very important question of wording, and the other the question of merits. As to the first, the hon. Member has worded his Amendment as follows:—
"The Irish Parliament shall not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production or export of goods."
I have contended that you cannot, by levying taxes, give a bounty; that a bounty is a thing given. The hon. Member disagrees with me and asks me to quote an economic authority. I should be very sorry indeed to set up for a single moment my own authority against that of the hon. Member on a question of economics, to which I know he has given the study of many years; but I will quote to him two authorities, the best I can obtain. They are two dictionaries on economics and commercial subjects, one a fairly old one and the other a recent one. McCulloch's Commercial Dictionary defines "bounty" in this way—
A term used in commerce and the arts to signify a premium paid by Government to the producers, the exporters or importers, of certain articles, or to those who employ ships in certain trades.
§ Mr. HEWINSWill the right hon. Gentleman state the date?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI said that it was an old one; nevertheless it is still an authority. McCulloch is an old economist of about the period of Ricardo; the date of this edition is 1882; it has been revised. There is no other date in the book. The other authority is Palgrave's Dictionary of Political Economy, and there I find the following definition:—
A bounty is in principle something received by the producer in addition to the price received from the consumer through the ordinary operations of the market.
§ Mr. HEWINSWho is the author?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI have not time to look at that. It is a long article, but there is nothing in it which in any way differs from that assertion. The hon. Member himself is a contributor to the book; therefore I am sure he will recognise the authority of the volume. Consequently, the hon. Member is, in our view, not entitled to use the term "bounty" at all in this connection. Bounties are not possible by means of the levying of a tax. They are possible if you give a drawback larger than ought to be allowed, but that is limited by the Customs Clauses of the Bill. You cannot give a bounty upon exports, because that is prohibited by a Sub-section of the Bill, and I am quite ready, if necessary, to put in words on Report which will make that intention perfectly clear. The hon. Member says that you can give a preference to one person as against another by taxing one and not taxing the other. I am not quoting the exact words, but that is the substance. Of course, you can. He says that that is contrary to Free Trade. Let me give him two instances from our present system of taxes in this country. You may have two factories, side by side, one a distillery manufacturing whisky, and the other a factory of ginger beer; you tax one, but you do not tax the other. You have a Licence Duty on the distillery, but none on the ginger-beer factory. Yet the hon. Member says that because we maintain this system and because we would allow the Irish Parliament to establish a similar system of taxation, we are committing the whole Liberal party to Protection. I think that is straining words too far.
§ The CHAIRMANThe hon. Member has had many opportunities of taking part in the Debate, and he ought to be prepared to listen to views with which he I may not agree.
§ Mr. HEWINSMay I point out that the particular case given by the right hon. Gentleman is that of a tax which is contrary to Free Trade principles?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI cannot admit that. At all events, no one has yet declared that no Free Trader could be in favour of a tax upon the manufacture of alcohol; but that is, in fact, what the hon. Member is contending. It is the first time that anyone has urged that it is contrary to the principles of Free Trade to tax a particular industry such as the alcohol or liquor trade. Let me give another illustration. (An HON. MEMBER: "What about cocoa?"] We have now a system of taxation of site values and undeveloped land. We tax undeveloped land, but we do not tax land used for agriculture. If the hon. Member's Amendment were inserted in the Bill, the Irish Parliament would not have power to differentiate or discriminate in levying taxes so as to give bounties on the production of goods. A person who uses his land for the purposes of agriculture would accordingly get a preference of the kind the hon. Member wishes to aim at by the Amendment. It appears to me to be a most undue restriction upon the powers of the Irish Parliament to prohibit them from adopting, if they thought fit, a system of taxation believed on other grounds to be open to them, which this House has thought fit to adopt, and which no one until this moment has suggested was in any way contrary to the principles of Free Trade. I have given two particular illustrations; the hon. Member gave us none. [HON. MKMBEKS: "Oh!"] I do not think he gave a single practical instance.
§ Mr. HEWINSThe other day.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIn his speech to-day he did not give even incidentally an illustration.
§ Mr. HEWINSI must protest against what the right hon. Gentleman says. In arguing the point of Order to which I referred in my speech, I deliberately referred to the measures by which bounties are given. In addition, I referred to our own experience and to that of foreign countries. I omitted all those instances from my speech to-night simply because the Government have given us only half an hour in which to discuss this question.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIt would have been interesting to have had in- 1104 stances, because one could have dealt with them one by one.
§ Mr. HEWINSLack of time.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe hon. Member spoke for quite a quarter of an hour. It is true it is not a long time, but it was long enough to have given cogent instances if they had been ready to hand, and we could then have considered the degree of practicability and probability attaching to them. For these reasons I ask the Committee not to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. BONAR LAWWe have only two minutes left, but it is quite long enough to point out that the only argument on which the right hon. Gentleman relies is half-past seven o'clock. He began by objecting to the raising of this question in the form in which it is raised. Owing to our method of discussion it could not be raised in any other way. He gave as an illustration of difference of taxation, confectionery and spirits. He knows perfectly well that that is not the case my hon. Friend meant. If Ireland enables the confectionery trade to be started without having to pay taxes which are paid by all other industries, that is Protection, not against Ireland, but against England, which is competing with Ireland for this trade. It is a fact, and nobody can deny it, that a system of bounties is possible, and that bounties are everywhere regarded, not only as a proof of Protection, but as the worst form of Protection. All economists say so, because they invariably lead, more than any other form, to corruption. The whole sum and substance of what the Government are doing in this matter is that they are determined not to allow any preference for the United Kingdom, as a whole, against foreign countries, but they are doing, and they are ready to do, what Members from Ireland have claimed that, if ever they had the power, they would do, namely, to set up a system of Protection against England and Scotland. [HON. MEMBERS: "NO."] I can read a quotation, even in the short time left, from a speech. It is by the hon. Member, who, I think, is the son of the leader of the Irish party. Speaking in this House, he said:—
What we want is Protection, and not against the tariffs of Germany and the United States, but against this country.That is what the Government is giving!1105 And, it being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded pursuant to the Order of the House of the 14th October, to put forthwith the Question on the Amendment already proposed from the Chair.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 214; Noes, 325.
1109| Division No. 328.] | AYES. | [7.30 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Goldman, C. S. | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Goldsmith, Frank | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newman, John R. P. |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Ashley, Wilfrid W. | Greene, W. R. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gretton, John | Nield, Herbert |
| Balcarres, Lord | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid.) |
| Beldwin, Stanley | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Barnston, Harry | Haddock, George Bahr | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Barrie, H. T. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hamersley, A. St. George | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rawson, Colonel R. H. |
| Bird, A. | Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Helmsley, Viscount | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Boyton, J. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hickman, Col. T. E. | Royds, Edmund |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hills, J. W. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool., W. Derby) |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hohler, G. Fitzroy | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Horne, E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone) |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, Andrew Long | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Stanler, Beville |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Starkey, John R. |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chambers, J. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, N.) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Swift, Rigby |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kerry, Earl of | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Kimber, Sir Henry | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Knight, Capt. E. A. | Terrell, H. (Gloucester) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Norman (Kent) | Lewisham, Viscount | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Croft, H. P. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent. Mid) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. Sir C. Scott | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Mackinder, H. J. | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Macmaster, Donald | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Fell, Arthur | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Malcolm, Ian | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Fleming, Valentine | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Younger, Sir George |
| Forster, Henry William | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | |
| Gardner, Ernest | Moore, William | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Hewins and Mr. Bigland. |
| Gibbs, G. A. | Mount, William Arthur | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Esslemont, George Birnle | Lyell, Charles Henry |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Falconer, J. | Lynch, A. A. |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Farrell, James Patrick | Macdonald, J, R. (Leicester) |
| Adamson, William | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Ffrench, Peter | McGhee, Richard |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Field, William | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Fitzgibbon, John | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Arnold, Sydney | George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Gill, A. H. | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Ginnell, L. | M'Kean, John |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Gladstone, W. G. C. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Glanville, H. J. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spelding) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Manfield, Harry |
| Barnes, George N. | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Griffith, Ellis J. | Martin, J. |
| Barton, W. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Gulland, John W | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Meagher, Michael |
| Bentham, G. J. | Hackett, John | Meehan, Francis (Leitrim, N. I |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Menzies, Sir Walter |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Hancock, J. G. | Millar, James Duncan |
| Black, Arthur W | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Molloy, M. |
| Boland, John Pius | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Harvey, A. J. C. (Rochdale) | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Mooney, J. J. |
| Brace, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Morgan, George Hay |
| Brady, P. J. | Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morrell, Philip |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Morison, Hector |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Havelock-Allan, sir Henry | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hayden, John Patrick | Muldoon, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Hayward, Evan | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Hazleton, Richard | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Needham, Christopher |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Neilson, Francis |
| Bytes, Sir William Pollard | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Henry, Sir Charles | Nolan, Joseph |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Higham, John Sharp | Nugent, Sir Walter R. |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Hinds, John | Nuttall, Harry |
| Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hodge, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hogge, James Myles | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Clough, William | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Clynes, John R. | Holt, Richard Durning | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Dowd, John |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Grady, James |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Malley, William |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburghshire) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Crooks, William | John, Edward Thomas | O'Shee, James John |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Cullinan, J. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Jones, Haydn (Merioneth) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardiganshire) | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rothernam) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Jowett, F. W. | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) |
| De Forest, Baron | Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Delany, William | Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Kellaway, Frederick George | Pollard, Sir George H. |
| Devlin, Joseph | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Dillon, John | King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. E. (Norfolk, E.) |
| Doris, W. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Duffy, William | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradfard, E.) |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Leach, Charles | Radford, G. H. |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Levy, Sir Maurice | Rattan, Peter Wilson |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford) | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Lundon, T. | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Reddy, M. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Redmond, William (Clare) | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) | Webb, H. |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Snowden, P. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. sir Thomas P. |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | Sutherland, J. E. | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Sutton, John E. | Wiles, Thomas |
| Robinson, Sidney | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Tennant, Harold John | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Roe, Sir Thomas | Thomas, James Henry | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Rowlands, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Rowntree, Arnold | Thorne, William (West Ham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Toulmin, Sir George | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips | Winfrey, Richard |
| Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander | Wood, Rt. Hon. T McKinnon, (Glas.) |
| Samuel, J. (Stockton) | Verney, Sir Harry | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Scanian, Thomas | Wadsworth, John | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Walton, Sir Joseph | |
| Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) | |
| Sheehy, David | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Sherwell, Arthur James | Wardle, G. J. | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Shortt, Edward | Waring, Walter |
§ The CHAIRMANthen proceeded, successively to put forthwith the Question on Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given, and the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at Half-past Seven of the clock at this day's sitting.
§ Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), after the word "tax" ["as an Imperial tax"], to insert the words,
1110§ "and shall not have power to vary, except by way of addition, any Customs Duty levied as an Imperial tax, or any Excise Duty so levied where there is a corresponding Customs Duty."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 324; Noes, 213.
1113| Division No. 329.] | AYES. | [7.44 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Bryce, J. Annan | Delany, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Burke, E. Haviland- | Devlin, Joseph |
| Adamson, William | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dillon, John |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Doris, William |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Duffy, William J. |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Arnold, Sydney | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Chancellor, H. G. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Clancy, John Joseph | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Clough, William | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Clynes, J. R. | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Falconer, James |
| Barnes, George N. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick) | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Barton, William | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Ffrench, Peter |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Cotton, William Francis | Field, William |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Crooks, William | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Crumley, Patrick | George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd |
| Black, Arthur W. | Cullinan, John | Gill, A. H. |
| Boland, John Plus | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Ginnell, Laurence |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Davies, Ellis William (Eiflon) | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Glanville, H. J. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Brace, William | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Dawes, James Arthur | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | De Forest, Baron | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Manfield, Harry | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Gulland, John William | Martin, Joseph | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Hackett, John | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Roch, Walter F. |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Meagher, Michael | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Hancock, J. G. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Millar, James Duncan | Rowlands, James |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Molloy, Michael | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mooney, John J. | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Mon.) | Morgan, George Hay | Scanian, Thomas |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Morrell, Philip | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Morison, Hector | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hayward, Evan | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Hazleton, Richard | Muldoon, John | Sheehy, David |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Shortt, Edward |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Needham, Christopher T. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Neilson, Francis | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Snowden, Philip |
| Hinds, John | Nolan, Joseph | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hodge, John | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Hogge, James Myles | Nuttall, Harry | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Sutton, John E. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Doherty, Philip | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Donnell, Thomas | Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Dowd, John | Tennant, Harold John |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Ogden, Fred | Thomas, James Henry |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Grady, James | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Malley, William | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Shee, James John | Wadsworth, J. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Jowett, F. W. | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Joyce, Michael | Parker, James (Halifax) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Keating, Matthew | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wardle, George J. |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Waring, Walter |
| Kilbride, Denis | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| King, Joseph | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Pirie, Duncan V. | Webb, H. |
| Lardner, J. C. R. | Pointer, Joseph | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pollard, Sir George H. | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Leach, Charles | Power, Patrick Joseph | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Lundon, Thomas | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Macdonald, P. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Radford, George Heynes | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| McGhee, Richard | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Williamson, Sir Archibald |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Reddy, Michael | Winfrey, Richard |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnnon (Glas.) |
| M'Curdy, C. A. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| M'Kean, John | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Rendall, Athelstan | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | |
| M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| NOES. | ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Baird, John Lawrence |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Ashley, W. W. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Astor, Waldorf | Baldwin, Stanley |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfieid) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Nield, Herbert |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Haddock, George Bahr | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | O'Shee, James John |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish- | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, s.) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bird, Alfred | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Harris, Henry Percy | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boyton, James | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawson, Col. Richard H. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Hickman, Col. Thomas E. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hills, John Walter | Royds, Edmund |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campion, W. H. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Cassel, Felix | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cave, George | Horner, A. L. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hunt, Rowland | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Chambers, J. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Stanier, Beville |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Clay, Captain H. H, Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Starkey, John R. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerry, Earl of | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Swift, Rigby |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Lawson. Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lewisham, Viscount | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Croft, Henry Page | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dixon, C. H. | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lonsdale. Sir John Brownlee | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Eyres-Monsell, S. M. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Mackinder, H. J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Fleming, Valentine | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Forster, Henry William | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Malcolm, Ian | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Moysey-Thompson, E. C, | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Gastrell, Major W. H. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Gibbs, George Abraham | Moore, William | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Goldman, C. S. | Morrison-Bell, Cant. E. F. (Ashburton) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. | Middlemore and Mr. Fell. |
| Greene, Walter Raymond |
§ Government Amendment: At end of Sub-section (2), add the following new Sub-section:—
§ "(c) The power of the Irish Parliament to vary an Imperial tax, so far as Income Tax (not including Super-tax) is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to alter the conditions under which any exemption, abate- 1114 ment, or relief from the tax may be granted to persons resident in Ireland without varying the rate of the tax, and, so far as any Customs Duty or any Death Duty is concerned, shall only be exercised so as to vary the rate of the duty without otherwise altering the provisions with respect to the duty, or dis- 1115 criminating in that variation between persons, articles, or property, and where the duty is one of two or more correlated duties, or is a duty levied at a varying rate, shall not be exercised without varying proportionately all the correlated duties or
1116§ all the rates of duties."—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 319; Noes, 210.
1119| Division No. 330.] | AYES. | [7.55 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Donelan, Captain A. | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Doris, William | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Duffy, William J. | Jowett, F. W. |
| Adamson, William | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Joyce, Michael |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Keating, Matthew |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Kellaway, Frederick George |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Kilbride, Denis |
| Alien, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | King, Joseph |
| Arnold, Sydney | Essex, Richard Walter | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Esslemont, George Birnle | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Falconer, James | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Farrell, James Patrick | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Coekerm'th) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Ffrench, Peter | Leach, Charles |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Field, William | Lewis, John Herbert |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) |
| Barnes, George N. | Fitzgibbon, John | Lundon, Thomas |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lyell, Charles Heury |
| Barton, William | Gill, A. H. | Lynch, Arthur Alfred |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Ginnell, Laurence | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) |
| Bentham, George Jackson | Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Glanville, Harold James | McGhee, Richard |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. |
| Black, Arthur W. | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) |
| Boland, John Plus | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Macpherson, James Ian |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Griffith, Ellis J. | M'Callum, Sir John M. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | M'Curdy, C. A. |
| Brace, William | Gulland, John William | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald |
| Brady, Patrick Joseph | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hackett, John | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | M'Micking, Major Gilbert |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Hancock, J. G. | Manfield, Harry |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Marks, Sir George Croydon |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Martin, Joseph |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mason, D. M. (Coventry) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Meagher, Michael |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Menzies, sir Walter |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Haslam, James (Derbyshire)) | Millar, James Duncan |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Molloy, Michael |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Molteno, Percy Alport |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Hayden, John Patrick | Mond, Sir Alfred M. |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Hayward, Evan | Money, L. G. Chiozza |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hazleton, Richard | Mooney, John J. |
| Clough, William | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Morgan, George Hay |
| Clynes, John R. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Morrell, Philip |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Morison, Hector |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Henry, Sir Charles | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Muldoon, John |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Higham, John Sharp | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Cotton, William Francis | Hinds, John | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Hodge, John | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Crooks, William | Hogge, James Myles | Neilson, Francis |
| Crumley, Patrick | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Cullinan, John | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | Nolan, Joseph |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Home, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Hudson, Walter | Nuttall, Harry |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| De Forest, Baron | John, Edward Thomas | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Delany, William | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvll) | O'Dowd, John |
| Devlin, Joseph | Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Ogden, Fred |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Grady, James |
| Dillon, John | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Q'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| O'Malley, William | Robinson, Sidney | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Roch, Walter F. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Roche, Augustine (Louth) | Wadsworth, J. |
| O'Shee, James John | Roche, John (Galway, E.) | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| O'Sullivan, Timothy | Roe, Sir Thomas | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Rowlands, James | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Parker, James (Halifax) | Rowntree, Arnold | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wardle, George J. |
| Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. | Waring, Walter |
| Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan) |
| Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Scanlan, Thomas | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Pirie, Duncan V. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) | Webb, H. |
| Pointer, Joseph | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Sheehy, David | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Power, Patrick Joseph | Sherwell, Arthur James | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Shortt, Edward | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook | I Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Smith, H B. L. (Northampton) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Primrose, Hon. Neil James | Smyth, Thomas (Leitrim, S.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Pringle, William M. R. | Snowden, Philip | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Radford, George Heynes | Soames, Arthur Wellesley | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Raffan, Peter Wilson | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert | Williams, P. (Middlesbrough) |
| Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Sutherland, J. E. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Reddy, Michael | Sutton, John E. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. Mckinnon (Glas.) |
| Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Rendall, Athelstan | Tennant, Harold John | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Richardson, Albion (Peckham) | Thomas, J. H. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) | |
| Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | Thorne, William (West Ham) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Toulmin, Sir George | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth) |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Hamersley, A. St. George |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Clyde, James Avon | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) |
| Archer, Shee, Major Martin | Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence |
| Astor, Waldorf | Courthope, George Loyd | Harris, Henry Percy |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Harrison-Broadley, H. B, |
| Balcarres, Lord | Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Helmsley, Viscount |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) |
| Barnston, Harry | Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Hewins, William Albert Samuel |
| Barrie, H. T. | Croft, Henry Page | Hickman, Colonel T. E. |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Hill, Sir Clement L. |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Denniss, E. R. B. | Hills, J. W. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Hill-Wood, S. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Dixon, C. H. | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Doughty, Sir George | Hohler, Gerald Fitzroy |
| Beresford, Lord Charles | Duke, Henry Edward | Hope, Harry (Bute) |
| Bigland, Alfred | Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) |
| Bird, Alfred | Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Fell, Arthur | Horner, A. L. |
| Boscawen, Sir A. T. Griffith- | Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Houston, Robert Paterson |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Hume-Williams, W. E. |
| Boyton, James | Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Hunt, Rowland |
| Bull, Sir William James | Fleming, Valentine | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Forster, Henry William | Ingleby, Holcombe |
| Burgoyne, Alan Hughes | Foster, Philip Staveley | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Gardner, Ernest | Jessel, Captain H. M. |
| Butcher, John George | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. |
| Campbell, Captain Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Gibbs, George Abraham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Goldman, C. S. | Kerry, Earl of |
| Campion, W. R. | Goldsmith, Frank | Kimber, Sir Henry |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Gordon, Hon, John Edward (Brighton) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford |
| Cassel, Felix | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Lane-Fox, G. R, |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Greene, Walter Raymond | Larmor, Sir J. |
| Cave, George | Gretton, John | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts., Mile End) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Lewisham, Viscount |
| Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Lloyd, G. A. |
| Chambers, J. | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) |
| Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Peto, Basil Edward | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Pole-Carew, Sir R. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Pollock, Ernest Murray | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Gee. Han. S.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Remnant, James Farquharson | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Mackinder, Halford J. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Macmaster, Donald | Rolleston, Sir John | Touche, George Alexander |
| M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Ronaldshay, Earl of | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Magnus, Sir Philip | Rothschild, Lionel de | Valentia, Viscount |
| Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Royds, Edmund | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) | Ward, A. S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Moore, William | Salter, Arthur Clavell | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Mount, William Arthur | Sanders, Robert Arthur | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Neville, Reginald J. N. | Sanderson, Lancelot | Winterton, Earl |
| Newdegate, F. A. | Sassoon, Sir Philip | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Newman, John R. P. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Newton, Harry Kottingham | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, w.) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Nield, Herbert | Spear, Sir John Ward | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Norton-Griffiths, J. | Stanier, Beville | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Starkey, John R. | Younger, Sir George |
| Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) | Steel-Maitland, A. D. | |
| Parkes, Ebenezer | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, W.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Swift, Rigby | Stewart and Mr. J. Wood. |
§ Government Amendment: In Sub-section (1), at the end of paragraph (d), to leave out the words "Excise restrictions," in order to insert instead thereof, the words
§ "revenue restrictions, or any variation of Customs or Excise drawbacks or allowances which woud cause the amount of drawback or allowance payable in respect of any article to be more than reasonably sufficient, in the opinion of the Joint Exchequer Board, to cover the duty paid thereon, and any expenses due to revenue restrictions,"—[Mr. Herbert Samuel.]
§ Question put, "That the Amendment be made."
1120§ Mr. NORMAN CRAIG(seated and covered): I beg, Sir, to ask, on a point of Order, whether it is not possible so to improve the instrument known as the guillotine that it may be possible to Closure by one blow a series of Amendments and Clauses, so that hon. Members, being prohibited from opportunity of speech, may be relieved from the necessity of prolonged pedestrian exercise, and so that the solemn farce of Divisions without discussion may not be unduly overdone?
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 207.
1123| Division No. 331.] | AYES. | [8.10 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Crooks, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Brace, William | Crumley, Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Brady, P. J. | Cullinan, J. |
| Adamson, William | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) |
| Adkins, Sir W Ryland D. | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Burke, E. Haviland- | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dawes, James Arthur |
| Arnold, Sydney | Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | De Forest, Baron |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Delany, William |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Devlin, Joseph |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Chancellor, H. G. | Dillon, John |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Chapple, Dr. William | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Barnes, George N. | Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Doris, W. |
| Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Clancy, John Joseph | Duffy, William J. |
| Barton, William | Clough, William | Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clynes, J, R. | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) |
| Bentham G. J. | Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) |
| Bethell, Sir J. H. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Black, Arthur W. | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Cotton, William Francis | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Bowerman, Charles W. | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Falconer, J. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | McGhee, Richard | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Ffrench, Peter | MacNeil, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Field, William | Macpherson, James Ian | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | M'Curdy, C. A. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | M'Kean, John | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Gill, A. H. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Robinson, Sidney |
| Ginnell, L. | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Roch, Walter F. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Glanville, Harold James | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Manfield, Harry | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Rowlands, James |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Martin, J. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset) | Meagher, Michael | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Gulland, John W. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Hackett, J. | Millar, James Duncan | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Molloy, M. | Seely, Rt. Hon. Col. J. E. B. |
| Hancock, John George | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sheehy, David |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Shortt, Edward |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Mooney, J. J. | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Morgan, George Hay | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morrell, Phillip | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Morison, Hector | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Snowden, p. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Muldoon, John | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Hayward, Evan | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Needham, Christopher T. | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Helme, Sir Norval Watson | Neilson, Francis | Sutton, John E. |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nolan, Joseph | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Henry, Sir Charles S. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Tennant, Harold John |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nuttall, Harry | Thomas, J. H. |
| Hinds, John | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Hodge, John | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Doherty, Philip | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Donnell, Thomas | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Dowd, John | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Horne, Charles Silvester (Ipswich) | Ogden, Fred | Wadsworth, J. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Grady, James | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Malley, William | Wardle, George J. |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles S. (Armagh, S.) | Waring, Walter |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea) | O'Shee, James John | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Webb, H. |
| Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Parker, James (Halifax) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston). |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, Robert (Starts, Leek) | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Whyte, Alexander F. |
| Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Keating, Matthew | Pirie, Duncan V. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Pointer, Joseph | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| King, J. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Williamson, Sir A. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, West) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pringle, William M. R. | Winfrey, Richard |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid., Cockerm'th) | Radford, George Heynes | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Leach, Charles | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Lundon, Thomas | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Reddy, Michael | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Redmond, John E (Waterford) | Illingworth and Mr. Wedgwood Benn. |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Ashley, W. W. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Astor, Waldorf | Baldwin, Stanley |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Baird, J. L. | Banbury, Sir Frederick George |
| Barnston, Harry | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Nield, Herbert |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Norton-Griffiths, John |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hamersley, A. St. George | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Pole-Carew, sir R. |
| Bird, Alfred | Harris, Henry Percy | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Helmsley, Viscount | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peef |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boyton, James | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burn, Col. C. R. | Hills, J. W. | Royds, Edmund |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, w. Derby) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ) | Hohler, G. F. | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Carlile, Sir Hildred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, A. L. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Ingleby, Holcombe | Stanier, Beville |
| Chambers, J. | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Starkey, John R. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Stewart, Gershom |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerry, Earl of | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kimber, Sir Henry | Swift, Rigby |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Larmor, Sir J. | Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Croft, H. P. | Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lloyd, G. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Touche, George Alexander |
| Dixon, C. H. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tryon, Capt. George Clement |
| Doughty, Sir George | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. s.) | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., South port) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | MacCaw, W. J. MacGeagh | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Mackinder, H. J. | Winterton, Earl |
| Fleming, Valentine | Macmaster, Donald | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Forster, Henry William | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Gardner, Ernest | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Goldman, C. S. | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Goldsmith, Frank | Moore, William | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Mount, William Arthur | Younger, Sir George |
| Goulding, Edward Alfred | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| Greene, Walter Raymond | Nowdegate, F. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gretton, John | Newman, John R. P. | G. Gibbs and Mr. C. Craig. |
| Guinness, Hon Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
§ Question put, "That the Clause, as Amended, stand part of the Bill."
1124§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 300; Noes, 194.
1127| Division No. 332.] | AYES. | [8.30 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Beauchamp, Sir Edward |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Bentham, George Jackson |
| Adamson, William | Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Bethell, Sir J. H. |
| Addison, Dr. Christopher | Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine |
| Agnew, Sir George | Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Black, Arthur W. |
| Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) | Barnes, George N. | Boland, John Pius |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Barran, Sir J. (Hawick Burghs) | Booth, Frederick Handel |
| Arnold, Sydney | Barton, William | Bowerman, Charles W. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) |
| Brace, William | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) |
| Brady, P. J. | Hayward, Evan | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) |
| Brocklehurst, William B. | Hazleton, Richard | O'Doherty, Philip |
| Bryce, John Annan | Helme, Sir Norval Watson | O'Donnell, Thomas |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | O'Dowd, John |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Ogden, Fred |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Henry, Sir Charles S. | O'Grady, James |
| Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Higham, John Sharp | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) | Hinds, John | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Malley, William |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Hodge, John | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Hogge, James Myles | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Shee, James John |
| Chancellor, H. G. | Hope, John Deans (Haddington) | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Chapple, Dr. William Allen | Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Hudson, Walter | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Clough, William | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Illingworth, Percy H. | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | Pointer, Joseph |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | John, Edward Thomas | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Cotton, William Francis | Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Crooks, William | Jones, Leif Straiten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Crumley, Patrick | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Radford, G. H. |
| Cullinan, John | Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Joyce, Michael | Raphael, Sir Herbert Henry |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Keating, Matthew | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Kellaway, Frederick George | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Reddy, Michael |
| Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan) | Kilbride, Denis | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Dawes, James Arthur | King, J. | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| De Forest, Baron | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) |
| Delany, William | Lambert, Richard (Cricklade) | Rendall, Athelstan |
| Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Devlin, Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Dickinson, W. H. | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Dillon, John | Leach, Charles | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Doris, William | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lundon, Thomas | Robinson, Sidney |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roch, Walter F. |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid.) | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk) | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | McGhee, Richard | Rowlands, James |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Macpherson, James Ian | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Esslemont, George Birnie | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Falconer, James | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Farrell, James Patrick | M'Curdy, C. A. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Sheehy, David |
| French, Peter | M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Field, William | M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) | Shortt, Edward |
| Flennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Manfield, Harry | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Martin, J. | Smyth, Thomas F, (Leitrim, S.) |
| Gill, Alfred Henry | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Snowden, Philip |
| Ginnell, L. | Meagher, Michael | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Glanville, H. G. | Menzies, Sir Walter | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Millar, James Duncan | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Molloy, Michael | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Sutton, John E. |
| Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe) |
| Gulland, John W. | Mooney, John J. | Taylor, Thomas (Bolton) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Morgan, George Hay | Tennant, Harold John |
| Hackett, J. | Morrell, Philip | Thomas, James Henry |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Morison, Hector | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hancock, John George | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Muldoon, John | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Nannetti, Joseph p. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Needham, Christopher T. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Nolan, Joseph | Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Norton, Captain Cecil William | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Wardle, George J. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Nuttall, Harry | Waring, Walter |
| Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay | Wilkie, Alexander | Winfrey, Richard |
| Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. (McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Webb, H. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Wedgwood, Josiah C | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) | Williamson, Sir A. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| White, Patrick (Meath, North) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) | |
| Whitehouse, John Howard | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) | Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Whyte, A. F. (Perth) | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Aitken, Sir W. M. | Gibbs, G. A. | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Goldman, C. S. | Mount, William Arthur |
| Ashley, W. W. | Goldsmith, Frank | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Astor, Waldorf | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Neville, Reginald J. N. |
| Baird, J. L. | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Goulding, Edward Alfred | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Greene, Walter Raymond | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gretton, John | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) |
| Barnston, H. | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Nield, Herbert |
| Barrie, Hugh T. | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Norton-Griffiths, J. |
| Bathurst, Charles Wilton | Gwynn, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hall, Marshall, (E. Toxteth) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Hamersley, Alfred St. George | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs) |
| Bird, Alfred | Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harris, Henry Percy | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) | Helmsley, Viscount | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Boyton, J. | Henderson, Major H, (Berkshire) | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bull, Sir William James | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Hickman, Colonel T. E. | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hill, Sir Clement | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hills, J. W. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Campbell, Rt. Hon. J. (Dublin Univ.) | Hoare, Samuel John Gurney | Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Stanier, Beville |
| Cassel, Felix | Horner, Andrew Long | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Houston, Robert Paterson | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cave, George | Hume-Williams, William Ellis | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Hunt, Rowland | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Chambers, James | Ingleby, Holcombe | Swift, Rigby |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Terrell, George (Wilts, N. W.) |
| Cooper, Richard Ashmole | Kerry, Earl of | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Craig Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Valentia, Viscount |
| Crichton-Stuart, Lord Ninian | Lawson, Hon. Harry (Mile End) | Watrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Lewisham, Viscount | Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.) |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Wills, Sir Gilbert |
| Doughty, Sir George | Long, Rt. Hon. Walter | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Wood, Mon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Worthington-Evans. L. |
| Fell, Arthur | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart- |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert | Mackinder, H. J. | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Macmaster, Donald | Yerburgh, Robert A. |
| Fleming, Valentine | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent. St. Augustine's) | Younger, Sir George |
| Forster, Henry William | Mersey-Thompson, E. C. | |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Middlemore, John Throgmorton | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Gardner, Ernest | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Salter and Major White. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Moore, William |