§ (1) The requirement contained in paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2) of Section three of the principal Act that the expenditure of a council shall in a certain case be limited by the Order shall cease, and that Section shall be repealed from "and in the event" to the end of the Section.
§ (2) There shall be substituted for the words "a railway company existing at the time will construct and work the railway if an advance is made by the Treasury under this Section" in Sub-section (1) of Section five of the principal Act, the words "a railway company working railways open for traffic has entered into an undertaking, subject to an advance being made by the Treasury under this Section, to work the light railway when constructed, or that the council of any county, borough, or district have given a guarantee, subject to such an advance being made, for payment during a period specified in the guarantee of any amount by which the receipts from the undertaking are insufficient for the purpose of providing the sums required for the maintenance and working of the light railway when constructed."
§ (3) The following paragraphs shall be substituted for paragraphs (c) and (d) of Section eleven of the principal Act:—
§ "(c) giving the necessary powers for constructing and working the railway and any works incidental thereto, including power to make agreements with any railway or other company, or any authority, person, or body of persons, for the purpose; and
§ "(d) giving any railway or any other company or any authority, person, or body of persons any power required for carrying the Order into effect; and"
§ (4) In Sub-section (1) of Section sixteen of the principal Act a reference to an application for an Order under that Act shall include a reference to an intended application for such an Order, and a reference to parishes shall include a reference to parts of parishes.
§ (5) It is hereby declared that the fixed period referred to in Sub-section (4) of Section sixteen of the principal Act need not be a period fixed by the Order, but may be a period fixed as occasion requires by the Board of Trade or other Government Department.
62§ (6) Notwithstanding anything in Section sixteen of the principal Act, any expenses incurred by the council of a borough with reference to the application for a Light Railway Order, or in pursuance of such an Order, may be made payable either out of the borough fund or rate, or as expenses incurred in the execution of the Public Health Acts as the Order may prescribe.
Mr. ROBERTSONI beg to move, in Sub-section (1), to leave out from the word "shall" ["the order shall cease"] to the end of the Sub-section, and to insert instead thereof the words "be amended by the substitution of the words 'such amount as the Board of Trade think fit under the circumstances,' for the words 'such amount as will, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, bear due proportion to the benefit which may be expected to accrue to their area from the construction or working of the railway.'"
This Amendment is practically one of drafting. A fear was expressed in the Standing Committee that the provision in the Clause as it stands in the Bill might involve danger, and we propose to drop certain words in the original Act as being practically meaningless. The fear was that the local authorities would be under no check whatever in regard to the schemes they might project for lines going beyond their own areas. We had no such fear of the Clause as originally framed, but as considerable uneasiness was expressed in the Committee on the subject we propose to put in the words which are given in the Amendment I now propose in order to make it perfectly clear that the Board of Trade will have to be satisfied in regard to any scheme which is put forward. That, I trust, will meet the difficulty which is felt by hon. Members.
§ Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTI, for one remain wholly unconvinced after the somewhat superficial explanation the hon. Gentleman has given for this particular Amendment. The principal Act which he seeks now to amend provides, in Section 3, that the council of a county, borough, or district may, in conjunction with the council of another county, borough, or district, take steps to promote a light railway which will supply the requirements of all the districts jointly. What the original Act provides is that the expenditure of each council respectively shall be decided by the Board of Trade by what appears to be the fairest possible method of arriving 63 at the due proportion each ought to pay. The words are that such—
"expenditure shall be so limited by the order as not to exceed such amount as will, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, bear due proportion to the benefit which may be expected to accrue to their area from the construction or working of the railway."
You could not possibly compile any form of words which would operate more fairly, or which could more clearly express the proper basis on which the Board should adjudicate in this matter between one council and another. What does the hon. Gentleman desire to do? He desires to leave out words which specify the method and the basis on which this allocation of expense shall be made, and simply to substitute the somewhat bald phrase "such amount as the Board of Trade think fit under the circumstances." After carefully reading the words proposed to be omitted, and the words proposed to be inserted, and after listening to the explanation of the hon. Gentleman I cannot see what advantage is going to be gained by the local authorities as the result of this Amendment. After all, it is a matter for the ratepayers of each area as to the burden these ratepayers should bear in order to provide this improvement in their district, and surely if the Board of Trade is to be arbitrator in the matter as between two local authorities, it is only fair to state what shall be the consideration which the Board shall entertain in order to arrive at a fair estimate of the proportion of expense as between the one local authority and the other.
§ Sir J. D. REESI wish to reinforce what my hon. Friend has said. I have only to say that the alteration proposed to be made by the Amendment is entirely in the direction of substituting the will of the Board of Trade for the law, and to that I, for my part, have a most strenuous objection. The words of the principal Act lay down the principles which should guide the Board of Trade in dealing with this matter. What can be the reason for eliminating the words laid down in the principal Act and substituting others which give the Board of Trade arbitrary-authority, and provide that they should act as they think fit under the circumstances. It is another illustration of what is continually happening, namely, the substitution of the will of the Executive for the will 64 of the law. It really is rather a flagrant case, and it is somewhat extraordinary that the matter should be treated in such a perfunctory manner as if the House was making no alteration at all. The Board of Trade has done nothing recently to give the public that greater confidence in it which would justify the House in substituting words which leave everything to their arbitrary will.
§ Mr. WATTI desire to join hon. Members on the other side in what they have said in respect of this Amendment. I also join in what was said in regard to the perfunctory manner in which the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade stated his case to the House. The more so do I take this view for this reason: This is an Amendment which was not spoken of in the Committee upstairs.
Mr. ROBERTSONI explained, in moving the Amendment, that it has been brought forward to meet a fear which was expressed in the Committee that the words of the Bill were not satisfactory.
§ Mr. WATTI did not hear the hon. Gentleman's explanation. Unfortunately we do not hear his explanations properly on the back benches. What he has now said removes one of my objections. The other objection was stated by the hon. Member for the Wilton Division (Mr. Bathurst). The effect of this Amendment is that in arranging the various sums to be allocated under this measure the Board of Trade will be appointed arbitrator in the matter. The words are, "as the Board of Trade think fit under the circumstances." These words give an absolute dictatorship to the Board of Trade as opposed to the present system under the Light Railways Act, which requires the Board of Trade to consider the benefit accruing to the district in dividing the expense or deciding the proportion to be paid. I venture to think; that the tendency of legislation is too much in the direction of handing over to the permanent officials full dictatorship powers. I feel it has been characteristic of the Government to hand over to the permanent officials too much power, and for that reason I think the system at present in operation, namely, the system of allocating the expense according to the advantage to be gained by the district is better than the giving of absolute power in the matter to the Board of Trade.
§ 5.0 P.M.
§ Mr. POLLOCKThe Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade has not 65 pointed out any circumstances or action to show it has been found that the words in the principal Act are inelastic or insufficient, or that they do not give the Board the power that is requisite. Although he referred to the fact that some misgivings were expressed in the Committee upstairs, whether or not the words in the Act of Parliament are sufficient, he only referred to these misgivings as a justification for the course he is now taking; but he has not given the House any circumstances connected with the working of the Act which prove that the present words are inefficient or insufficient. Therefore, I think it is wholly unfortunate that the House should be asked to give way to the misgivings of Members in the Committee, which may, or may not, have been well founded. The Members may not have had before their minds the words of the Act or the circumstances attending its working. It is proposed to give the Board of Trade power to determine what should be the amount as they shall think fit. The curious thing is that this power should be given to the Board of Trade. If you had to seek a Department of the Government to decide this point I do not think you should have gone to the Board of Trade. The Board that would be likely to know about it would probably be the Local Government Board. Of course, they, and they alone, would have knowledge of what would be the benefit accruing to a particular area; but we are now asked to leave it entirely to the Board of Trade without being told that the present words are inadequate. I should have thought that the Board of Trade would have decided to have some sort of standard on which to work to give their decision. If it is merely to be whatever the Board of Trade may think under the circumstances is fit there is no standard, and it will hereafter be pointed out that the old words have been swept away which limited the amount to the benefit that was expected to be derived by the area, and substituted these new words which take away that standard and leave nothing in its place. I do not think that sufficient reason has been shown for the omission of the words in the old Act, and unless the hon. Gentleman can point to some difficulty arising or give some reason why these wider words are better than the old ones, it seems to me that the existing words are better than those which it is proposed to substitute for them.
§ Mr. JONATHAN SAMUELI think it is very essential to read in conjunction with this Amendment, Paragraph (b) of Subsection (3), which says that the council of any county, or borough, or district, can contribute or advance money to a light railway company, either by way of loan, or as part of the share capital of the company. That is a very important power to give to a local authority, and it was very much contested upstairs whether the power should be given to local authorities to advance money in this way without regard to the ratepayers. The part of the Sub-section, which it is proposed to delete in the original Act, provides that the expenditure shall be so limited by the Order as not to exceed such amount as will in the opinion of the Board of Trade be proportionate to the benefit accruing to the area. There is nothing in the proposed Amendment which limits the power of the Order. I want to know the effect of this Amendment on a local authority in cases where expenditure exceeds the amount estimated? Local authorities are very often led into the construction of works by underestimates, and then find that the estimates are exceeded, in some cases, by hundreds of thousands of pounds. I wish to know whether, under this Amendment, local authorities will be called upon to provide an additional share beyond the amount fixed in the Order, assuming that the estimates for the work are exceeded? At present there is a limitation of the amount, and if these words are taken out I am afraid that a local authority would not be safe. What I desire to know is, if they decide to advance, say, some thousands of pounds towards a light railway scheme, and then afterwards find that there was an underestimate of the actual cost, would they as well as the company who are promoting the scheme be called upon to find an additional sum? The words "in proportion to the benefit accruing to the area" are being omitted, and we ought to feel satisfied that the local authority shall not be led into this expenditure without having some such limiting words in the Clause.
§ Captain JESSELIt seems to mo that the Under-Secretary, by his present proposal, is giving much more extensive powers to the Board of Trade than were contained in the original Act, and I must join in the protest made by my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Mr. C. Bathurst), against giving undue increased 67 power to the Executive Government of the day. I hope that in the circumstances the Secretary to the Board of Trade will explain what led him practically to repeal the original Clause.
§ Sir W. BYLESI trust that my hon. Friend will be able to say something to meet the objections which have been made by hon. Members on both sides of the House as to the possession of uncontrolled power by the Board of Trade. I sympathise with some of the observations which have been made. I have felt that there has been an increasing tendency in modern legislation to give more and more power to the Executive Government and the Secretary of the Board of Trade to determine points of this kind, and I trust that my hon. Friend will be able to refute the objections which have been made to this Amendment.
Mr. ROBERTSONI am sure that hon. Members quite realise that those words, which were in the original Act, have already been struck out by the Committee upstairs. We have been criticised to-night as if we were not accepting the findings of the Committee. On this point we are following the findings of the Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton (Mr. Jonathan Samuel) has said that a power of limitation which existed before is now being taken away. That is not so. I think the whole dispute turns on the omission in the Committee of that particular phrase, "such amount as will in the opinion of the Board of Trade bear due proportion to the benefits which may be expected to accrue to the areas from the construction or working of the railway." That matter was discussed in the Committee and there was general agreement that for all practical purposes the words are meaningless. No one can make out an equation which will arrive at that precise amount, and it was generally regarded by the Committee, as it had been by the Department, as something which gave no real guidance or standard at all. The hon. Member for Salford (Sir W. Byles) and others referred to new powers being given to the Board of Trade. No new powers are being given to the Board of Trade. They could have done before exactly what is proposed now. They had only to say that in their opinion there was a certain proportion between the benefits derived and the amount expended. It was a perfectly vague expression which they 68 could apply in any way they wished. We considered that as a variety of considerations arise when the Board of Trade has to-come to a decision on a point of this kind it was much better that those hazy and largely meaningless words which tended unduly to limit the consideration of the subject by the Board of Trade should be taken out, and that it was better to state that the Board of Trade should do what it practically must have done even under the original Act: that is consider all the circumstances and give its decision in the light of all the circumstances.
§ Mr. C. BATHURSTSurely as this left the Committee there is is no power whatever to the Board of Trade to apportion expenditure between one local authority and the other. This is a new power which it is seeking to put in here.
Mr. ROBERTSONThe power was there before. We are only proposing different words. We are only proposing the simple rational expression, "such amount as the Board of Trade think fit under the circumstances," for the former expression, "such amount as will in the opinion of the Board of Trade bear due proportion to the benefits which may be expected to accrue to the areas." We are simply sweeping away a hazy, confused, general expression. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, may rest assured that the powers of the Board of Trade are in no way extended. It will simply use its discretion as before. We are only getting rid of a piece of phraseology in the original Act which merely tended to cloud the minds of those who were to apply it.
§ Sir F. BANBURYIf the powers of the Board of Trade are not being extended it is not necessary to put those words in. If these words do not give new powers, why not leave this as it was before? It seems to me to be extending the powers of the Board of Trade to say that they may do anything they wish. It may be a little difficult to apply the existing principle, but I do not think it is right in such a case to say, "This is a difficult problem; we will get rid of it by saying that the Board of Trade can do anything it likes." That is practically what is now proposed. II my hon. Friend goes to a Division I shall certainly support him.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 122; Noes, 298.
59| Division No. 310.] | AYES. | [4.40 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. | Newdegate, F. A. |
| Archer-Shee, Major Martin | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baird, J. L. | Fletcher, John Samuel | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Forster, Henry William | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Foster, Philip Staveley | Orde-Powlett, Hon. G. W. A. |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Gardner, Ernest | Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William |
| Barrie, H. T. | Gastrell, Major W. H. | Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) |
| Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) | Gilmour, Captain J. | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Pollock, E. M. |
| Bird, A. | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Pryce-Jones, Col. E. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Randies, Sir John S. |
| Boyton, J. | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Rawson, Col. R. H. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Hill, Sir Clement | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Burn, Col. R. | Hohler, G. F. | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Butcher, J. G. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Royds, Edmund |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Campion, William Robert | Horner, A. L. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hunt, Rowland | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Cator, John | Hunter, Sir C. R. | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Cautley, H. S. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Cecil Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. | Starkey, John R. |
| Chambers, James | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Kerry, Earl of | Stewart, Gershom |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Keswick, Henry | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clyde, James Avon | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Knight, Capt. E. A. | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Lee, Arthur H. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, E. (Ches., Crewe) | Lloyd, George Ambrose | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Vaientia, viscount |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Lockwsod, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Weigall, Capt. A, G. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm, Edgbaston) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Eyres-Monsell, B. M. | Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) | Winterton, Earl |
| Faber, George D. (Clapham) | MacCaw, Wm J. MacGeagh | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.) | M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Falle, Bertram Godfrey | Malcolm, Ian | |
| Fell, Arthur | Meysey-Thompson, E. C. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Goldsmith and Mr. Wheler. |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Neville, Reginald J. N. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) |
| Adamson, William | Black, Arthur W. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Boland, John Pius | Condon, Thomas Joseph |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Booth, Frederick Handel | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Bowerman, C. W. | Cotton, William Francis |
| Alden, Percy | Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) | Brady, P. J. | Crooks, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Crumley, Patrick |
| Armitage, Robert | Brunner, John F. L. | Cullinan, J. |
| Arnold, Sydney | Bryce, J. Annan | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Davies, E. William (Eifion) |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Burke, E. Haviland- | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Dawes, J. A. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | De Forest, Baron |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Delany, William |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Devlin, Joseph |
| Barnes, G. N. | Cawley, Harold T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Dickinson, W. H. |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Chancellor, H. G. | Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. S. |
| Barton, W. | Clancy, John Joseph | Dillon, John |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Clough, William | Donelan, Captain A. |
| Doris, William | King, Joseph | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) |
| Duffy, William J. | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Radford, G. H. |
| Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) | Larmor, Sir J. | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rid, Cockerm'th) | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Leach, Charles | Reddy, Michael |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | Levy, Sir Maurice | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Lewis, John Herbert | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) |
| Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone) |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Low, Sir Frederick (Norwich) | Rendall, Atheistan |
| Falconer, J. | Lundon, Thomas | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lyell, Charles Henry | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) |
| Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles | Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) |
| Ffrench, Peter | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Field, William | McGhee, Richard | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward | Maclean, Donald | Robinson, Sidney |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roch, Walter F. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| France, G. A. | Macpherson, James Ian | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Furness, Stephen | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | M'Callum, Sir John M. | Rowlands, James |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Loyd | M'Curdy, C. A. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Gill, A. H. | M'Kean, John | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Ginnell, L. | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Manfield, Harry | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Goldstone, Frank | Marks, Sir George Croydon | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. |
| Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Scott. A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Sheehy, David |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Griffith, Ellis Jones | Meagher, Michael | Shortt, Edward |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) | Millar, James Duncan | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Hackett, John | Molloy, M. | Snowden, Philip |
| Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton) | Molteno, Percy Alport | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| Hancock, John George | Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) | Money, L, G. Chiozza | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Hardle, J. Keir | Mooney, John J. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) | Morgan, George Hay | Sutherland, J. E. |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) | Morison, Hector | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Muldoon, John | Thomas, J. H. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Munro, R. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Havelock-Allen, Sir Henry | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Hayward, Evan | Needham, Christopher T. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hazleton, Richard | Neilson, Francis | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Nicholson, Sir Charles (Doncaster) | Wadsworth, J. |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Nolan, Joseph | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Norman, Sir Henry | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Herbert, Col. Ivor (Mon., S.) | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Higham, John Sharp | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Hinds, John | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Wardle, G. J. |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Hodge, John | O'Doherty, Philip | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Hogge, James Myles | O'Donnell, Thomas | Watt, Henry A. |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | O'Dowd, John | Webb, H. |
| Korne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Ogden, Fred | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Hudson, Walter | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Malley, William | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Whyte, A. F. |
| John, Edward Thomas | O'Shee, James John | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) | Outhwaite, R. L. | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Pearce, William (Limehouse) | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Jowett, Frederick William | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | Winfrey, Richard |
| Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Joynson-Hicks, William | Pirie, Duncan V. | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Kelly, Edward | Power, Patrick Joseph | |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Kilbride, Denis | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Division No. 311.] | AYES. | [5.15 p.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Newman, John R. P. |
| Baird, John Lawrence | Fletcher, John Samuel | Newton, Harry Kottingham |
| Balcarres, Lord | Foster, Philip Staveley | O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) |
| Baldwin, Stanley | Gardner, Ernest | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Gilmour, Captain John | Perkins, Walter Frank |
| Barrie, H. T. | Goldsmith, Frank | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton) | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bigland, Alfred | Greene, Walter Raymond | Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward |
| Bird, Alfred | Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Randies, Sir John S. |
| Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight) | Rawson, Colonel Richard H. |
| Boyton, J. | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hall, Marshall (E. Toxteth) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Bull, Sir William James | Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) | Rothschild, Lionel de |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Harrison-Broadley, H. B. | Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen) |
| Butcher, John George | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Sanders, Robert Arthur |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Scott, Leslie (Liverpool, Exchange) |
| Campion, W. R. | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Mildred | Hohler, G. F. | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Cautley, H. S. | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Starkey, John Ralph |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Chambers, James | Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) | Sykes, Alan, John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Clay, Captain H. H, Spender- | Horner, Andrew Long | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis | Talbot, Lord Edmund |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | Hunt, Rowland | Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North) |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Hunter, Sir Charles Rodk. | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North) |
| Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) | Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.) | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) | Kebty-Fletcher, J. R, | Touche, George Alexander |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dalziel, D. (Brixton) | Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Watt, Henry A. |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Lloyd, G. A. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) | Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | Lyttelton, Hon J. C. (Droitwich) | Winterton, Earl of |
| Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) | MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Falle, Bertram Godfray | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | |
| Fell, Arthur | Magnus, sir Philip | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Captain |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Jessel and Mr. C. Bathurst. |
| Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A. | Newdegate, F. A. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Adamson, William | Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney A. (Poplar) | Falconer, James |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) | Farrell, James Patrick |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Cawley, H. T. (Lancs., Heywood) | Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Clancy, John Joseph | Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson |
| Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbartonshire) | Clough, William | Ffrench, Peter |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Field, William |
| Armitage, R. | Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward |
| Arnold, Sydney | Condon, Thomas Joseph | Fitzgibbon, John |
| Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry | Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Flavin, Michael Joseph |
| Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. | Cotton, William Francis | Francis, Gerald Ashburner |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Crooks, William | Furnéss, Stephen |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Crumley, Patrick | Gelder, Sir W. A. |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Cullinan, J. | George Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) | Gill, A. H. |
| Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) | Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) | Gladstone, W. G. C. |
| Barnes, George N. | Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | Glanville, H. J. |
| Barran, Sir J. N. (Hawick Burghs) | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) | Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Dawes, J. A. | Goldstone, Frank |
| Barton, William | De Forest, Baron | Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Delany, William | Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Devlin, Joseph | Greig, Colonel James William |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Dickinson, W. H. | Griffith, Ellis Jones |
| Black, Arthur W. | Dillon, John | Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C (Pembroke) |
| Boland, John Pius | Donelan, Captain A. | Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Doris, William | Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Duffy, William J. | Hackett, J. |
| Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Hall, Frederick (Normanton) |
| Brady, P. J. | Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) | Hancock, J. G. |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) | Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) |
| Brunner, John F. L. | Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) | Hardie, J. Keir |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) | Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire) |
| Buckmaster, Stanley O. | Elverston, Sir Harold | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds. W.) |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Meagher, Michael | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Median, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Robinson, Sidney |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Menzies, Sir Walter | Roch, Walter F. |
| Hayden, John Patrick | Millar, James Duncan | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Hayward, Evan | Molloy, Michael | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Hazleton, Richard | Molteno, Percy Alport | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Rose, Sir Charles Day |
| Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.) | Money, L. G. Chiozza | Rowlands, James |
| Henry, Sir Charles | Mooney, John J. | Rowntree, Arnold |
| Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon. S.) | Morgan, George Hay | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Higham, John Sharp | Morrell, Philip | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Hinds, John | Morison, Hector | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Hodge, John | Muldoon, John | Scanian, Thomas |
| Hogge, James Myles | Munro, R. | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles E. |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Holt, Richard Durning | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Sheehy, David |
| Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) | Needham, Christopher T. | Shortt, Edward |
| Howard, Hon. Geoffrey | Neilson, Francis | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Hudson, Walter | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Nolan, Joseph | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Norman, sir Henry | Snowden, P. |
| Jardine, Sir John (Roxburghshire) | Norton, Captain Cecil W. | Soames, Arthur Wellesley |
| John, Edward Thomas | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert |
| Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.) |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Strauss, Edward A. (Southward, West) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Sutherland, John E. |
| Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) | O'Doherty, Philip | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Donnell, Thomas | Tennant, Harold John |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | O'Dowd, John | Thomas, J. H. |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Ogden, Fred | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Jowett, Frederick William | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Joyce, Michael | O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Keating, Matthew | O'Malley, William | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Wadsworth, John |
| Kelly, Edward | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. | Walters, Sir John Tudor |
| Kennedy, Vincent Paul | O'Shee, James John | Walton, Sir Joseph |
| Kilbride, Denis | O'Sullivan, Timothy | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| King, J. | Outhwaite, R. L. | Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Palmer, Godfrey Mark | Wardle, George J. |
| Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Parker, James (Halifax) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'ri'd, Cockerm'th) | Pease, Robert Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Webb, H. |
| Leach, Charles | Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.) |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Pointer, Joseph | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Lundon, T. | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Lyell, Charles Henry | Power, Patrick Joseph | Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P. |
| Lynch, Arthur Alfred | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) | Whyte, A. F. |
| Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Williams, John (Glamorgan) |
| McGhee, Richard | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen) |
| Maclean, Donald | Pringle, William M. R. | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Radford, G. H. | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) | Raffan, Peter Wilson | Wilson, John (Durham, Mid) |
| Macpherson, James Ian | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| M'Callum, Sir John M. | Reddy, Michael | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| M'Kean, John | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.) |
| McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Redmond, William (Clare, E.) | Young, William (Perthshire, E.) |
| M'Micking, Major Gilbert | Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Manfield, Harry | Rendall, Atheistan | |
| Marks, Sir George Croydon | Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) | |
| Marshall, Arthur Harold | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. |
| Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) | Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Mr. ROBERTSONI beg to move, in Sub-section (2) to leave out, after the word "constructed" ["the railway when constructed"], the words "or that the council of any county, borough, or district have given a guarantee, subject to such an advance being made, for payment during a period specified in the guarantee of any amount by which the receipts from the 72 undertaking are insufficient for the purpose of providing the sums required for the maintenance and working of the light railway when constructed."
This Amendment is consequential upon a change which has already been made. The Bill originally contained a Clause allowing local authorities to guarantee interest on the capital of a light railway company. Strong opposition was expressed to that power on both sides of the Committee, and 73 it was agreed to drop the proposal. I may state that it was originally introduced by way of following a practice which had been found somewhat advantageous in the case of light railways in Belgium, and therefore we wanted to facilitate light railway enterprise in this country. The opinion of the Committee was pretty clearly against it, however, and that particular power was dropped. The Committee having come to that decision, it is necessary to drop the words specified in the Amendment.
§ Amendment agreed to.