CLAUSE 5.—(Interpretation and Provision as to Chairman.) (Hansard, 26 March 1912)

§ Mr. BAIRD
I beg to move in Subsection (1) after the word "ironstone" ["The expression 'coal mine' includes a mine of stratified ironstone"], to insert the words, "except where stratified ironstone occurs outside the coal measures." At a previous stage of the Bill the Attorney-General said stratified ironstone would not be included in the definition where it was not included in the dispute. There is a small ironstone mine in Scotland where the quality of the ironstone is low, and it will be impossible to utilise it unless it is obtained at a low price. Otherwise this promising industry would be closed down at the very start. The outlook now is favourable in a part of the country where it is hard to obtain work, and it would be impossible to carry on the experiment if the wages were raised. The Cleveland district ironstone-miners voted against the strike. It was the only district that did not want a strike. They were afraid of any alteration in the conditions of employment which might lead to their being thrown out of work owing to the mines being closed down. The quality of the ironstone mined in the Cleveland district and in Scotland is very much lower than that which comes from abroad, and there is great risk of this trade being stopped altogether if these districts are included under the Bill.

§ Mr. MITCHELL-THOMSON
I beg to second this Amendment, but I am not sure that the Government may not consider that possibly at goes further than even my hon. Friend intends. Under these circumstances I would ask the Government to take some special steps to consider the case of this island in the north-west of Scotland which was referred to. It would be undesirable of course to have a special rate for ironstone miners where there are coal miners working alongside. I recognise that that might give rise to friction; but in the case of this island there are no coal mines anywhere near, and I think the Government might well take that case into consideration.

§ Sir RUFUS ISAACS
The Amendment goes much further than, I think, the hon. Gentleman who moved it intended. It 377 would cut out various ironstone mines which are not intended by him to be excluded. I am afraid it is much too wide. If his point is merely to exclude the island to which he referred, we will consider how to meet it, and it shall be met.

§ Mr. BAIRD
On that understanding, I beg leave to withdraw.

§ Mr. KEIR HARDIE
The Clause contains a definition of the persons to whom this Act is not to apply. These are persons "employed solely in surveying or measuring, or an official of the mine." It is felt that the Clause as drafted would exclude numbers of bond-fide workmen from the benefits to be conferred, presumably, by this Act. Who is an official it is difficult to determine. The new Mines Act brings in quite a number of workers of various grades—deputies, firemen, timbermen and others of that type—all these might be classed as officials and so be excluded from this Act. I beg to move to leave out the words, "an official" ["or an official of the mine"] and to insert instead thereof the words, "who is a manager, or under manager, or other official who may be declared by mutual agreement by the joint committee not to be a workman to whom this Act applies." It will be observed that this Amendment does not lay down any hard and fast rule as to who are to be classed as officials. The Amendment leaves that to be decided mutually between the miners and the owners, and as it requires agreement between the two sides obviously no injustice can be done.

§ Mr. ARTHUR HENDERSON
seconded the Amendment.

Mr. BUXTON
This is rather a difficult question involving a definition as to how far, if the word "official" is left in, it may put outside the Act certain men whom we have no desire should be excluded from its benefits. I have been in communication with the Home Office on the matter, and if my hon. Friend will be good enough to withdraw his Amendment, I shall be disposed to move it more or less in the same words, which will, I think, carry out his objects. I propose to leave out "an official of the mine," and to insert "or any manager or under-manager of the mine, or an official of the mine who is recognised by the Joint District Board as not being in the position of a workman."

§ Mr. KEIR HARDIE
I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

Mr. BUXTON
I beg to move to leave out the words "an official of the mine" ["a person employed solely in surveying or measuring, or an official of the mine"], and to insert instead thereof, the words "or any manager or under-manager of the mine, or an official of the mine who is recognised by the Joint District Board as not being in the position of a work man."

Mr. BUXTON
I beg to move after the words last added to insert the words "or a person employed as mechanic."

§ Viscount CASTLEREAGH
Does this Amendment cover the case of those who go occasionally down a mine?

Mr. BUXTON
These words cover the point which the Noble Lord has raised.

§ Sir F. BANBURY
May I ask what is meant by "or a person employed as mechanic." I suppose "a mechanic" is what is meant. Would the right hon. Gentleman see that his Amendments are written in English in future?

Mr. BUXTON
Obviously this is a clerical error.

§ Mr. KEIR HARDIE
Is this to apply to an engine-keeper underground or simply to an engineer who goes down to construct or repair an engine?

§ Mr. BOOTH
Does it include the smith who goes down occasionally to shoe the ponies?

Mr. BUXTON
In reply to the hon. Baronet, I understand the Amendnment is he proper drafting.

Mr. WALSH
This word "mechanic" has given us more trouble than any other under the Eight Hours Act. We have had scores of employers who have been trying to bring in the man who repairs a rope or looks after small parts of the engine, as a mechanic to whom the Eight Hours Act is not applicable. In the Committee stage we pointed out what confusion was likely to arise under the Eight Hours Act, and it has arisen. I am afraid we are going to have similar difficulties on this Bill.

§ Mr. L. HARDY
I beg to move to add the further words, "any person whose principal duties are above ground."
379 This is really the point raised in the Committee stage—as to whether it is safe to leave out any reference to the people who go down a pit occasionally to do odd work. Electricians were mentioned during the Committee stage, and I do not think they can be quite called mechanics. I do not quite know what "mechanic" is without the "a." The hon. Member for Pontefract has mentioned the shoer of horses. There are a good many people who go down in connection with the ponies. There are the veterinary surgeon, the sadler to mend the harness, and various other people. If we look back to the first Clause we see mentioned "an implied term of every contract for the employment of a "workman underground." Therefore words are wanted to exclude those people sent down on. special jobs who are certainly not underground workers in any sense meant by the hon. Members of the Labour party. We are all agreed on the point, but the definition is not full enough.

Mr. BUXTON
This point was raised in the Committee stage, and I can only answer now as I did then. Persons employed only intermittently would not come under the provisions of the Act. It is intended to apply only to those who are bond fide underground workers. We think they are fully covered by this definition Clause.

§ Mr. L. HARDY
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman's attention to the two first lines of the Bill? It is no use the Government saying they intend to do a thing unless they do it.

Mr. BUXTON
I am not a draughtsman or lawyer. I think the words referred to in the first Clause mean a workman employed underground in the ordinary sense of the term and not one intermittently employed. I have looked into the matter, and I am assured that that is the position. I will look into it again.