§ (VOTE ON ACCOUNT.)
§ Postponed Proceeding resumed on Amendment—[Lord Robert Cecil].
§ Lord EDMUND TALBOTI wish to say only a word with reference to the secondary school regulations, and anything I can say on that subject will only be a repetition of what has been so well said by my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Barlow) and my Noble Friend (Lord R. Cecil). All I can do is to emphasise what has fallen from them. I can assure the President of the Board of Education that, however strong the feeling may be in other denominations with reference to these regulations, it is certainly not so strong as among my coreligionists. They feel that these regulalations are really penal upon them. I was unable to be present to hear the speech of the right hon. Gentleman himself, but I heard afterwards with great disappointment, that he held out, no hope whatever of any change in these regulations this year. I regret that extremely. I think ha had a good opportunity. We understand from what has appeared in the Press, that next year we are to be again face to face with a violent conflict on the question of education. I think if the right hon. Gentleman had seen his way to change these regulations this year, there might have been some chance of starting on the campaign in a more peaceful frame of mind than we shall do. Possibly the right hon. Gentleman may feel that he will not be here to enter upon that campaign. If that is so, perhaps that is some excuse for continuing these regulations now. All I wish to do is to assure him that the Catholics of this country bitterly resent and really feel with pain that these regulations are to be continued in force.
§ The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. Trevelyan)One or two questions have 670 been put in relation to the Education Department which I desire to answer, but before I do so I wish to say a word or two in regard to what was said earlier in the Debate as to the salaries paid by certain local authorities in Wales in connection with voluntary schools. The view taken by hon. Members of the position, so far as I can understand, is that the Board of Education ought directly the Swansea judgment was given to have taken action by mandamus or otherwise against the local authorities who appeared to be paying less-salaries in the voluntary schools. As far as I can make out, hon. Members opposite contend that there should have been hardly any delay or inquiry. I wish to remind the House that the Board of Education has a good many other dealings with local authorities than to quarrel with them over religion. If the Noble Lord the Member for Oxford University at any time had anything to do with education, sitting on this bench, I should like to seethe result if the Board of Education should treat local authorities as if they were under his control. In dealing with local authorities, it does not do to fire off orders against them from the Board of Education. I suggest to the House that the course adopted by my right hon. Friend has been perfectly right and perfectly wise. In the first place after the judgment the Board of Education dealt with Swansea. It got that case settled. It arranged and insisted that the Swansea authority should do what the law demanded it should do. Having done that, the President then proceeded to make inquiries into the other cases, and so far from failing by this more conciliatory process than firing off mandamuses to local authorities, he rather appears to be settling the question, as evidently is happening already in the case of the Glamorgan authority. Surely that is a very much better plan than quarrelling with half a dozen authorities throughout Wales.
After all, in this matter, we are only imitating what has been done by our predecessors. When the right hon. Gentleman the senior Member for Oxford University had charge of the education business in this House he had to put into operation the Act of 1902. He had some difficulty in dealing with the West Riding of Yorkshire, which, like the Welsh 671 counties, did not take a very conciliatory view of the Act of 1902, and did not wish to put it into operation. One of the things it did was to refuse by resolution to pay a Grant to secondary schools which gave denominational teaching. It was during his regime that they passed that resolution, and they refused to pay the Grant—I wonder why the right hon. Gentleman did not mandamus the authority. But persuasion is a far better plan than quarrelling, and he hoped that as time went on it would become gradually possible to induce the West Riding authority to take a more conciliatory view of the working of the Act. That is what my right hon. Friend is going to do with regard to these schools. He is determined to work the Act justly. He is not going to rush into quarrels with the local authorities. He is going to see whether they are acting according to the law or not, and if they are acting illegally he will take action.
§ Sir W. ANSONIn dealing with the West Riding we are dealing with secondary schools over which the Board of Education have practically no power.
§ Mr. TREVELYANThe fact remains that you allowed the West Riding authority to go on paying Grants to provided schools, but not paying Grants to non-provided schools, which was against the law.
§ Sir W. ANSONSecondary schools.
§ Mr. TREVELYANI am exceedingly sorry that the whole of this Debate should have been taken up with the discussion of the religious question. There was one speech which was markedly different from most of the speeches in this Debate, that of my hon. Friend (Mr. Whitehouse). He alluded to the very interesting work which the Board of Education has got to do. I cannot speak of many things to which he directed his remarks, but I should like in this rather full House, with many Members who are interested in the work of the local authorities present, to call attention to one new item on the Estimates to which he directly referred, that was the fact that this year appears on the Estimates for the first time the sum of £60,000 put down for the purpose of the medical treatment of school children. Regulations will be issued under which that sum will be spent, and I very much hope that it will result in increased 672 activity on the part of local authorities in carrying out what both sides of the House regard as a necessary expenditure to raise the standard of health of our children. My hon. Friend the Member for Stoke referred to what he regarded as a local grievance, namely, that the Grant for necessitous areas had been refused to the borough which he represents. The Board have very carefully considered the matter, and my right hon. Friend came clearly to the decision that the Grant could not be claimed on legal grounds. Burslem and Longton were united to Stoke in 1908, Stoke not being then in the position to get the necessitous area Grant. By the Provisional Order, which united the present boroughs of Burslem and Longton to Stoke, those two boroughs get the right to continue to receive the Necessitous Areas Grant. They were still to be treated as seperate boroughs for that purpose. Under that provision last year they got £6,000 out of the Necessitous Areas Grant. The hon. Member now asks why Stoke, as a whole, cannot get a Necessitous Areas Grant? In the first place, it is impossible for us, in view of the Provisional Order, to cease to give Burslem and Longton the £6,000 which they get under the regulations. Therefore, all we might seem to be able to do would be to deal separately with the other parts of the present Stoke borough and give them separate Grants. We cannot do that under the regulations, which are agreed on by the Treasury, and provide that no local authority which is not at the present moment receiving a Grant can get it. It is therefore absolutely impossible for us to do it. Unless my hon. Friend induces the Treasury to take a different point of view, it is legally impossible for us to do what he wants. I must ask him to deal with it as a question which is rather more a Treasury one than one connected with our Department. We have heard the case thoroughly, and we have come to the definite conclusion that we cannot meet him on legal grounds.
§ Mr. RAWLINSONThe hon. Member forgot to answer a most important question, and it is this. If it turns out that these local education authorities have acted improperly and contrary to the law in differentiating between one class of school and another—and that has been going on, if we are right, since May of last year—and if it turns out after inquiry that they are wrong, will the right hon. Gentleman see that the teachers have the 673 arrears of salaries from May to the time of the enforcement of the inquiry? Otherwise, if that is not done, the fact will be that the recalcitrant local education authorities will have acted wrongly for ten or eleven months. At the inquiry into the conduct of the local education authority that authority, as in the Swansea case, of course will not go into the box or give evidence and will not call any witnesses, and the end of it will be that they will get off ten months' salary.
§ Mr. J. A. PEASEAll I can say in reply to that matter is this, that I am prepared to hold inquiries if I do not receive satisfactory replies from the various county
§ councils. If the result of those inquiries leads me to believe that other steps have to be taken, I will take care to see that the law is carried out. With regard to the arrears of salaries, I have nothing whatsoever to do with that. My duties end in seeing that efficient education is secured in these schools. With regard to the treatment and payment of the schoolmasters, that is a matter for the local authority.
§ Question put, "That Item Class IV, Vote 1 (Board of Education) be reduced by £100."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 105; Noes, 204.
675| Division No. 33.] | AYES. | [11.0 p.m. |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Forster, Henry William | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Ashley, W. W. | Foster, Philip Staveley | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gardner, Ernest | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Baker, Sir R. L (Dorset, N.) | Gibbs, G. A. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Balcarres, Lord | Glazebrook, Capt. P. K. | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldman, C. S. | Rawson, Colonel R. H. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Goldsmith, Frank | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Barnston, Harry | Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Barrie, H. T. | Grant, J. A. | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bathurst, Hon. A. B. (Glouc, E.) | Guinness, Hon. W. E. | Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby) |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Beckett, Hon. Gervase | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Smith, Harold (Warrington) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Hohler, G. F. | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stanier, Beville |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Houston, Robert Paterson | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Burdett-Coutts, William | Ingleby, Holcombe | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) |
| Campion, W. R. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Terrell, Henry (Gloucester) |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Knight, Captain E. A. | Thynne, Lord Alexander |
| Cator, John | Larmor, Sir J. | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Cautley, H. S. | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Cave, George | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. | Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) | Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.) |
| Clyde, J. Avon | Mackinder, Halford J. | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Macmastcr, Donald | Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.) |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine) | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Mount, William Arthur | Yate, Col. C. E. |
| Fell, Arthur | Newton, Harry Kottingham | |
| Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes | Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Lord R. Cecil and Mr. Rawlinson. |
| Flannery, Sir J. Fortescue | Nield, Herbert | |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Bentham, G. J. | Crooks, William |
| Abraham, Rt. Hon. William (Rhondda) | Boland, John Pius | Crumley, Patrick |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Bowerman, C. W. | Cullinan, John |
| Adamson, William | Brocklehurst, W. B. | Davies, E. William (Eifion) |
| Addison, Dr. C. | Bryce, J. Annan | Davies, Timothy (Louth) |
| Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. | Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) |
| Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. | Byles, Sir William Pollard | Dawes, J. A. |
| Agnew, Sir George William | Carr-Gomm, H. W. | De Forest, Baron |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Cawley, Harold T. (Heywood) | Doris, William |
| Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) | Chancellor, Henry George | Duffy, William J. |
| Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) | Chapple, Dr. W. A. | Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) |
| Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) | Clough, William | Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) |
| Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) | Clynes, J. R. | Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Collins, G. P. (Greenock) | Elverston, Sir Harold |
| Barran, Rowland Hurst (Leeds, N.) | Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Esmonde, Dr John (Tipperary, N.) |
| Beauchamp, Sir Edward | Cowan, W. H. | Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) |
| Beck, Arthur Cecil | Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) | Essex, Richard Walter |
| Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) | Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Esslemont, George Birnie |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson | Low, Sir F. (Norwich) | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Field, William | Lundon, T. | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Lyell, Charles Henry | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Gelder, Sir W. A. | Lynch, A. A. | Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs.) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) | Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) |
| Gill, A. H. | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Gladstone, W. G. C. | Macpherson, James Ian | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Glanville, H. J. | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Manfield, Harry | Rowlands, James |
| Goldstone, Frank | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter |
| Griffith, Ellis J. | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Russell, Rt. Hon. Thomas W. |
| Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Martin, Joseph | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | Masterman, C. F. G. | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Meagher, Michael | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Hardie, J. Keir | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Sheehy, David |
| Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.) | Menzies, Sir Walter | Shortt, Edward |
| Harvey, A. G. C. | Millar, James Duncan | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Molloy, M. | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Haslam, James (Derbyshire) | Mond, Sir Alfred M. | Smyth, Thomas F. |
| Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) | Mooney, J. J. | Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West) |
| Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Morgan, George Hay | Sutton, John E. |
| Hayward, Evan | Worrell, Philip | Tennant, Harold John |
| Helme, Norval Watson | Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. | Thomas, James Henry (Derby) |
| Higham, John Sharp | Nannetti, Joseph P. | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Hinds, John | Needham, Christopher T. | Toulmin, Sir George |
| Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Neilson, Francis | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Hodge, John | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Hogge, James Myles | Nolan, Joseph | Wadsworth, John |
| Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard | Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent) |
| Hudson, Walter | Nuttall, Harry | Wardle, George J. |
| Hughes, S. L. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay |
| Jardine, Sir John (Roxburgh) | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Watt, Henry A. |
| Johnson, W. | O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) | Webb, H. |
| Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Dowd, John | White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston) |
| Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | O'Malley, William | White, Patrick (Heath, North) |
| Jones, Leif (Notts, Rushcliffe) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) | Whitehouse, John Howard |
| Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Parker, James (Halifax) | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) | Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) | Wiles, Thomas |
| Jowett, Frederick William | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) | Wilkle, Alexander |
| Joyce, Michael | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) | Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough) |
| Keating, M. | Pointer, Joseph | Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.) |
| Kellaway, Frederick George | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Kilbride, Denis | Power, Patrick Joseph | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| King, J. (Somerset, North) | Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.) | Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.) |
| Lamb, Ernest Henry | Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) | Young, Samuel (Cavan, East) |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) | Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) | Young, William (Perth, East) |
| Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Pringle, William M. R. | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Lansbury, George | Radford, G. H. | |
| Levy, Sir Maurice | Rattan, Peter Wilson | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| Lewis, John Herbert | Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
Original Question put, and agreed to.
§ And, it being Eleven of the clock, the Chairman proceeded, pursuant to Standing Order No. 15, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Vote.
§ Whereupon the Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
§ Resolution to be reported to-morrow (Friday); Committee to sit again upon Monday next.
§ Adjourned sit Thirteen minutes after Eleven o'clock.