HC Deb 31 July 1912 vol 41 cc2056-8
Mr. W. THORNE

May I be allowed to put a question to the Home Secretary, of which I have given him private notice: Whether he is aware that between 6.30 and 7.30 this morning four men who were seeking work at the Victoria and Albert Docks were shot, and that two of them are now lying in a critical condition in the Seamen's Hospital; whether active steps are being taken to discover the guilty persons; and whether he can take steps to ensure that such dangerous persons are not allowed to carry firearms while at work? May I add that since giving notice of the question I have found out that at least twenty men have been treated in the Seamen's Hospital, and one of them has died?

The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. McKenna)

The Commissioner of Police reports that disturbances arose this morning in the Albert and Victoria Docks owing to assaults by strikers on free labourers. The latter used revolvers, and four strikers were injured by revolver shots, two of them seriously. The man who fired two shots is known, and has been charged by the police. They will endeavour to find the others, if they have not done so already; but whether these persons were guilty of any offence depends upon the degree of danger to which they were exposed. I have no power to prevent them carrying firearms, however dangerous the practice may be. I have no information later than that. I have given.

Mr. W. THORNE

Can the right hon. Gentleman imagine what will happen if the same number of men on the other side carry revolvers and shoot the blacklegs? May I also ask whether he is prepared to have an inquiry into this matter at once, because it is very serious?

Mr. McKENNA

I hope my hon. Friend will not press that point. The whole of the material which I have at present is that which I have read to the House. I shall have to inform myself first of the nature of the facts before I undertake to promise an inquiry.

Mr. W. THORNE

In consequence of the serious nature of the outrage I hope, Sir, you will give me a chance to-morrow of putting another question.

Mr. ALDEN

Are we to understand the Home Secretary is pursuing his investigations at the present time? Is he following up the inquiries that have already been made, and does he intend to keep on inquiring until he gets all the facts?

Mr. McKENNA

That was the intention I intended to convey to the House. The only information I have got at present is such information as I have read to the House. As soon as I have been able to inquire further into the facts myself, I shall be able to answer the hon. Member as to whether it is necessary to have an inquiry.

Mr. W. THORNE

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not possible to find out whether the men, I do not care whether they are union or non-union men, are possessed of firearms?

Mr. ALDEN

Could not the right hon. Gentleman give instructions to the police at the dock gates to search all men as they go into the docks? [HOB. MEMBERS: "No."] All the men are searched as they come out. Why not search them as they go in to see if they have any firearms?

Sir A. MARKHAM

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether any member of the public is not entitled to carry a revolver and to use it if he goes in bodily fear?

Mr. McKENNA

I have been asked this question at very short notice, and I am unwilling to answer without previous reference to my right hon. Friend.

Mr. ALDEN

It is not a matter of law. Is it not possible for the Authority owning the docks to see to it that every man going into the docks possesses a licence for any firearms he may carry on his person? Is it not possible for every person to be searched who enters the docks, the docks being private property?

Mr. McKENNA

I should doubt very much whether the Port Authority have any such power. I certainly could not answer without reference to the power the Port Authority may have.

Mr. JOHN WARD

Does the right hon. Gentleman advise the strikers, if they are in danger of personal violence, to carry revolvers too?

Mr. McKENNA

My hon. Friend must not misunderstand me. I do not advise anybody, either free labourer or striker, to carry a revolver. I am only dealing with the question whether I have any power to interfere with a person who desires to carry a revolver.

Mr. JOHN WARD

Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to suggest there were extenuating circumstances, and that a man is entitled to use firearms if he thinks his life in danger?

Mr. McKENNA

It is most necessary there should be no misunderstanding. Let me again read the last sentence of my answer:— But whether these persons were guilty of any offence depends upon the degree of danger to which they were exposed. I have no power to prevent them carrying firearms, however dangerous the practice may be. That is a simple statement of law.

Mr. JOHN WARD

Was it necessary for the right hon. Gentleman to make such a statement? Why did he not keep to the facts rather than make suggestions.

Mr. McKENNA

I was asked a specific question and it was in reply that I made this statement of law.