§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for new Services may be considered in Committee of Supply on Monday next."—[Mr. Lloyd George, for the Prime Minister.]
§ Lord BALCARRESI should like to enter a protest against this proposal. I do not know if the House remembers what passed in 1902. A pledge was given by the then First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. Balfour) that Estimates for new services should not be taken on any of the allotted days. I do not object to the Estimates for the new services being taken on Monday next, but I do object to their being taken on one of the allotted days in Supply. In 1901 the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon) objected to Estimates for new services of this kind being taken on an allotted day. The Rules then were provisional, but in 1902 they took their final form. The then First Lord of 1518 the Treasury said he would meet the views generally expressed in all quarters of the House and exclude new services from the allotted days. The discussion of the subject on 25th April, 1902, extends to two or three columns of "Hansard," but the whole point is found in these words:—
Mr. Dillon said that if the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment were carried, the provision to which he was referring would be rendered unnecessary, because when any new service or Supplementary Estimate not dealt with or provided for in the Estimates of the year was proposed it must be taken not within twenty days, but in time provided by the Government.Mr. Balfour: Any new service not included in the ordinary Estimates for the year, such as the loan referred to by the hon. Member, would be a new service, and if the Rule is passed in the shape in which it appears on the Paper, and with the Amendment—'not later than two days before the Committee is closed'—it would not come within the purview of the twenty-three days at all.Mr. Dillon said that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman would do away with the difficulty which arose last year, and that being so he thought the concession a very substantial one.The average number of new services is one, two or three per annum, but this year we are presented with no fewer than fifteen. In addition, we have lost four whole evenings in Committee of Supply. We also lost an hour on the second day, three-quarters of an hour on the third day, three-quarters of an hour on the fourth day, and a half hour on the seventh day. The whole principle of the allotted days is abrogated if night after night we lose substantial amounts of time. Those on this side of the House complain of want of time in order to discuss Board of Trade Votes, Customs and Excise, and so on, while only last night some hon. Members on the other side protested that they lost the whole of the evening of the day allotted for Scottish Estimates.
§ Mr. BOOTHThere have been two counts, and repeated protests, against the small attendance on the other side.
§ Lord BALCARRESI do not want to enter into a controversy on that point, but the House has never been counted out on a day allotted for Supply this Session. We have no objection to these Votes being taken on Monday next. As they are new services they cannot, under Standing Orders, be taken on an allotted day. It was done last year in respect of one particular Vote, but this year the number is fifteen. Last year it was done in order to provide an opportunity not otherwise obtainable for the discussion of payment of Members. What is now proposed is a very serious infraction both of the letter and the spirit of the pledge 1519 given by the First Lord of the Treasury, without which it would have been very difficult to pass these Rules.
§ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (Mr. Lloyd George)I agree with the Noble Lord that if these new services had been taken within the twenty days usually allotted for Supply there would have been a great deal of strength in the argument which he submitted to the House. The position is this. There was an appeal made by the Opposition for more time to discuss these new services, which in the ordinary course would have been guillotined in the twenty days without any discussion at all, so long as they are put down two days before the Vote is taken. At any rate, two additional days
§ were allocated for this very reason, and although fifteen new services on the face of it are rather formidable, six of these are for insurance, and practically they amount to one new service. It has been discussed over and over again, and I understand that on Monday there will be another discussion on the same subject. Two days have been allotted for the reason that I have explained, and I think it only fair that the Government should have this Motion to make the matter perfectly clear.
§ Question put, "That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 15, Supplementary Estimates for new Services may be considered in Committee of Supply on Monday next."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 136; Noes, 133.
1521| Division No. 162.] | AYES. | [12.24 p.m. |
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) | Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. |
| Adamson, William | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | Nannetti, Joseph P. |
| Ainsworth, John Stirling | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | Needham, Christopher T. |
| Alden, Percy | Hayden, John Patrick | Neilson, Francis |
| Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) | Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.) | Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) |
| Barnes, G. N. | Higham, John Sharp | Nolan, Joseph |
| Barton, W. | Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. | Norton, Captain Cecil W. |
| Beale, Sir William Phipson | Holmes, Daniel Turner | Nugent, Sir Walter Richard |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Bentham, G. J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Boland, John Pius | Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Jones. W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Bryce, J. Annan | Jowett, Frederick William | Raphael, Sir Herbert H. |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) | Keating, M. | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kelly, Edward | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Clough, William | Kilbride, Denis | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | King, J. (Somerset, N.) | Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lardner, James Carrige Rushe | Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) | Roche, John (Galway, E.) |
| Crawshay-Williams, Eliot | Lewis, John Herbert | Roe, Sir Thomas |
| Crooks, William | Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas | Samuel, J. (Stockton) |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lundon, Thomas | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Cullinan, John | Lyell, Charles Henry | Schwann, Rt. Hon. Sir C. E. |
| Dawes, J. A. | Lynch, A. A. | Sheehy, David |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) | Sherwell, Arthur James |
| Devlin, Joseph | Maclean, Donald | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Dillon, John | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Taylor, John W. (Durham) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Duffy, William J. | Macpherson, James Ian | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Elverston, Sir Harold | McCallum, Sir John M. | Verney, Sir Harry |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | M'Curdy, C. A. | Wadsworth, J. |
| Falconer, J. | Martin, J. | Walsh, Stephen (Lanes., Ince) |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney) |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Webb, H. |
| George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd | Millar, James Duncan | Weagwood, Josiah C. |
| Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford | Molloy, M. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Guest, Hon Major C. H. C. (Pembroke) | Moiteno, Percy Alport | Whyte, A. F. (Perth) |
| Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) | Mooney, J. J. | Wilkie, Alexander |
| Hackett. J. | Morison, Hector | Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.) |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | Morton, Alpheus Cleophas | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | Muldoon, John | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—-Mr. |
| Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale) | Munro, R. | lllingworth and Mr. Gulland. |
| NOES. | ||
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Archer-Shee, Major M. | Balcarres, Lord |
| Aitken, Sir William Max | Ashley, W. W. | Baldwin, Stanley |
| Amery, L. C. M. S. | Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. | Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) |
| Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. | Baird, J. L. | Barnston, H. |
| Antsruther-Gray, Major William | Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Bathurst, Hon. Allen B. (Glouc, E.) |
| Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) | Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) | Peel, Hon. w. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Bennett-Goldney, Francis | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Haddock, George Bahr | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Boyton, J. | Hambro, Angus Valdemar | Pole-Carew, Sir R. |
| Bridgeman, W. Clive | Harris, Henry Percy | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Bull, Sir William James | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Burdett-Coutts, W. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Rawson, Col. R. H. |
| Campbell, Capt. Duncan F. (Ayr, N.) | Hickman, Col. Thomas E. | Rees, Sir J. D. |
| Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred | Hill-Wood, Samuel | Ronaidshay, Earl of |
| Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. | Hoare, S. J. G. | Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hope, Harry (Bute) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Cator, John | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Sanderson, Lancelot |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Houston, Robert Paterson | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford University) | Hume-Williams, W. E. | Sassoon, Sir Philip |
| Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) | Ingleby, Holcombe | Spear, Sir John Ward |
| Chaloner, COl. R. G. W. | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Keswick, Henry | Starkey, John R. |
| Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry | Knight, Captain E. A. | Staveley-Hill, Henry |
| Clay, Captain H. H. Spender | Lane-Fox, G. R. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Larmor, Sir J. | Stewart, Gershom |
| Courthope, George Loyd | Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) | Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford) |
| Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) | Lewisham, Viscount | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Craik, Sir Henry | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Tryon, Captain George Clement |
| Croft, H. P. | Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) | Tullibardine, Marquess of |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. | Valentia, Viscount |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- | Long. Rt. Hon. Walter | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Dixon, C. H. | Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee | Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid) |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | McCaw, William J. MacGeagh | Weigall, Capt. A. G. |
| Faber, George Denison (Clapham) | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Falle, B. G. | Magnus, Sir Philip | Wolmer, Viscount |
| Fell, Arthur | Malcolm, lan | Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Ripon) |
| Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey | Mason, James F. (Windsor) | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. | Newdegate, F. A. | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Forster, Henry William | Newman, John R. P. | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Foster, Philip Staveley | Newton, Harry Kottingham | Yate, Colonel C. E. |
| Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. | Younger, Sir George |
| Gilmour, Captain John | Parkes, Ebenezer | |
| Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—-Sir |
| Grant, J. A. | Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) | F. Banbury and Mr. Samuel Roberts. |
| Gretton, John |