§ Mr. STEPHEN COLLINSasked the Postmaster-General whether employment as male typists was considered by the Standing Committee appointed to inquire into boy labour in the Post Office as likely to afford additional avenues into permanent employment; whether the substitution of male typists by female typists in the Central Telegraph Office will reduce the avenues of employment at present available for the boys; and whether he can state the reason for the change?
§ The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel)Employment as male typists was not considered by the Boy Labour Committee as likely to afford an additional avenue into permanent employment, because the male typists in the Post Office are boy clerks who have to leave at the age of eighteen. The change the hon. Member refers to was made for the purpose of substituting permanent employment for temporary.
§ Mr. NANNETTIasked the Postmaster-General whether his attention has been called to the dismissal of several auxiliary postmen who have been employed for many years in a temporary manner in the Irish post offices and their places subsequently filled by ex-soldiers and pensioners; whether he will give instructions to have this practice stopped; and whether he can see his way to make permanent servants men so employed for years?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIn the absence of particulars, I cannot identify the cases referred to by the hon. Member. Auxiliary postmen, who work and are paid only for a part of the day, are engaged on the understanding that they are not entitled to succeed to established or pensionable appointments. I shall be happy to inquire into any case in which hardship appears to be involved in the dismissal of an auxiliary postman.
§ Mr. MOOREMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman if he has noticed that this campaign against soldiers and pensioners has been organised by the gentlemen who cheered the Boers?
§ Mr. NANNETTIMay I ask the right hon. Gentleman if men who are acting in a temporary capacity as auxiliary postmen have not a right to some consideration, and to be appointed to permanent appointments when these become vacant? Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the 734 hardships to which I have alluded are not allowed to occur in future?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIf these auxiliary postmen were given permanent appointments there would not be places for the boy messengers. I am anxious to find permanent appointments for the boy messengers instead of dismissing them in large numbers. An arrangement made by a previous Government provided that half of the appointments as postmen should be given to ex-soldiers and ex-sailors. They also have a claim upon the country, and really a greater claim than these auxiliary postmen, who are only engaged for a few hours a day, and are distinctly told when, they accept employment that it is on the understanding that they cannot be given permanent employment.
§ Mr. NANNETTIAre the men who are working in the Post Office and expecting promotion not to receive the same consideration as other men? Why should these men who have been working in the Post Office for years be deprived of employment for the purpose of finding employment for ex-soldiers when they leave the Army?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI can add nothing to what I have said.
§ Mr. FLAVINIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that among the cases of appointments given to ex-soldiers there has been a great deal of inefficiency and disgrace? I will give the right hon. Gentleman a specific case. Let the Postmaster-General inquire at Tralee in regard to the disgraceful services of two or three ex-soldiers.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member should put his question on the Paper.
§ Mr. NANNETTIasked whether the practice which has long prevailed in the postal service of open competition for appointments has been abolished in Ireland; and, if so, whether any examination is in future to be set for candidates for entrance to these positions, or in what way are applicants for positions in the Post Office to be appointed?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe hon. Member refers doubtless to the abolition of open competition for appointments as sorting clerks and telegraphists, which I recently authorised with the object of rendering more appointments available for telegraph messengers and so avoiding their dismissal at the age of sixteen. 735 Competitive examination is however maintained, though restricted to messengers, postmen, and others already serving the Post Office, and I may add that the educational standard required is the same as before.
§ Mr. NANNETTII have nothing to say in the way of objection to the giving of employment to the boy messengers. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether in apportioning these appointments he will not only give consideration to young men, not messengers, who are expecting promotion, but also whether consideration will be given by a limited competition or otherwise to the other applicants for appointments in the Post Office?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELNo, Sir. If I am to find places for the boy messengers—and I think the House generally desires me to do so—it is obvious that I cannot to that extent take in other people from outside. The policy at present is to find employment for the boy messengers in the Post Office service, and it is for that reason that I cannot act on the hon. Member's suggestion.
§ Mr. NANNETTIIs no consideration to be given to efficient service? When these boys come in without competitive examination, and when places are filled by ex-soldiers, what guarantee have the public in Ireland that the service of the Post Office will be carried on in an efficient manner?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIt will be the same as elsewhere. It does not affect the ex-soldiers at all. It affects only the boy messengers on the one hand and the public on the other. The educational standard will be maintained as high as it has ever been in the past.
§ Mr. BRADYasked the Postmaster-General whether he can state how many Army pensioners are employed in Ireland in his Department as postmen, porters, etc.?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThe number is eighty-five.
§ Mr. BRADYasked the Postmaster-General whether the office of auxiliary postman is one of temporary character; whether a large number of auxiliary postmen, working four and five hours daily and employed for ten and fifteen years and upwards, have, according to the rules of the Post Office Department, no prospect 736 of being appointed to permanent established positions; and whether, seeing the hardships which must often be caused to such men, he will take steps to ensure that a larger proportion of the positions for established postmen are in future given to deserving auxiliaries?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELAs the work of the Post Office is much heavier during certain hours than during the rest of the day, the employment of some auxiliary part-time labour is inevitable. Auxiliary postmen, engaged for such duties, are clearly warned in writing on first employment that they have no title to succeed to established posts. Any such posts conferred on them would be withdrawn from telegraph messengers, and I am not prepared to do this save in cases where special considerations arise.
§ Mr. BRADYWould the right hon. Gentleman consider this a special case: that of a man who discharges his duties as an auxiliary postman for ten, twelve, or fifteen years, and then at a moment's notice is dismissed in order to give a position to a soldier? I do not in any way reflect on His Majesty's Army, but I think His Majesty's postmen are equally deserving of consideration.
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELIf an auxiliary postman has been working a considerable number of years in the Post Office and his duties gradually get so big that it becomes almost a full-time appointment, then when it can be converted into a fulltime appointment it is the custom of the Government to appoint the man previously doing the work to that position.
§ Mr. BRADYIs it not the fact that frequently auxiliary postmen such as I have described are dismissed, and are not promoted to positions on the staff?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELThat occurs as a rule, where they have been working for two or three hours a day, perhaps for a considerable number of years, and it has been possible to combine two or three auxiliary into an established full-time post, a course the Department is always anxious to take, because it much prefers a full-time man to a half-time man. In those cases it happens frequently that none of these men are regarded as having a strong claim.
§ Mr. BRADYWill the right hon. Gentleman undertake to say that men working five or six hours a day for ten or twelve years have not been dismissed?
§ Mr. HERBERT SAMUELI think that those cases are very rare. If the hon. Member calls my attention to any I shall be most happy to give consideration to them.
§ Mr. MOOREIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that no objection whatever would have been taken to the fact of these people being dismissed if their successors were not men who had served in the Army?