§ 2. Mr. GINNELLasked the President of the Board of Agriculture, if he is now in a position to say when the normal conditions of trade in cattle, sheep, and pigs between Ireland and Great Britain may be resumed in the event of no further outbreak of disease occurring?
§ Mr. FIELDBefore the right hon. Gentleman replies to that question, may I put one to him—a question of which I have given private notice: Whether in view of recent developments he is prepared now to state what arrangements will be made to allow the importation of fat Irish livestock, cattle, sheep and pigs, for immediate slaughter at foreign animals wharves in Great Britain; and whether he has received requests from British meat trades asking that such facility for supplies be immediately granted?
§ The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of AGRICULTURE (Mr. Runciman)In reply to the supplementary question put, I have received a request from the meat traders in the terms stated. I can perhaps best reply to the first part of the question of the hon. Member and the question on the Paper together. I regret to say that the position as regards the existence of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland is much too obscure at the moment to enable me to make any definite forecast as to the modification of the existing restrictions. My hope is that so soon as the efforts which are now being made by the Irish Department to trace back to their place of origin, not only the infected animals which have arrived at Birkenhead, but all which have been in contact with them in course of transit, it may be possible for a line to be drawn between the suspected and dangerous districts in Ireland and those which it may be hoped are free from infection, and to allow animals to be sent from the latter districts for slaughter at the foreign animals wharves on this side, so as to minimise the consequences of the loss of the Christmas markets both in Ireland and Great Britain. I am in communication with the Irish Department on the subject, and hope to be able to make a definite announcement to-morrow or on Wednesday.
§ Mr. GINNELLCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether any cattle in contact with these cases in transit ever contracted the disease?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANI should require to have definite notice of that question; but I believe that some of the animals which came over in a vessel from Newry have shown signs of foot-and-mouth disease since they were landed at Birkenhead.
§ Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIENIs the right hon. Gentleman in a position to tell us as to whether there is any truth in the statement of Lord Lucas that there is to be a permanent quarantine upon Irish cattle, whether diseased or not?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANNo Sir, Lord Lucas did not say that there was to be a permanent quarantine on Irish cattle an England. What he did say—and I have carefully verified the remarks he made—was that in future the normal trade must provide for inspection in England as well as inspection in Ireland. Of course there must be a little time lost whilst the inspection is taking place in this country.
§ Mr. W. O'BRIENDoes not that practically amount to a protective tariff in England against Irish cattle?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANOh, no, not in the least. Inspection takes place not only in regard to foot-and-mouth disease, but for other purposes also. I am only extending to foot-and-mouth disease what has been done with regard to other diseases for some time past.
§ Mr. FIELDDoes the right hon. Gentleman expect to be in a position to state definitely to-morrow or Wednesday the course to be pursued—for time is the essence of this matter?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANI am quite aware of the fact that loss of time, especially at this season of the year, is of very great importance to the dealers and farmers concerned. I should hope to be able to make a definite statement on Wednesday; but we must have the position cleared up, and know from what centre of Ireland the diseased animals came, so that we may take no undue risk in opening the ports.
§ Mr. CRUMLEYWill the right hon. Gentleman not permit the ports of Dublin, Cork, Waterford, and Belfast to be opened for the shipment of cattle to Great Britain, seeing that there has been no disease, and is no disease, within a fifty or 100 miles radius of these places, and that a large number of stock are lying——
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe hon. Member is putting an argumentative point.
§ 3. Mr. STANIERasked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can give any more information regarding the outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in Kent; and if it is known from whence the disease came?
§ 8. Mr. BENNETT-GOLDNEYasked the President of the Board of Agriculture whether there have been any fresh outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease or swine fever in East Kent since he made his last statement to the House; whether there have been any fresh cases in the district first affected; and whether he has been able to permit a fat stock market to be held in the county of Canterbury on Monday, 16th December, in addition to those already sanctioned in other unaffected centres in the neighbouring county of Kent?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANNo further outbreaks of disease have occurred in East Kent since I made my last statement to the House, but in the course of slaughtering out the contact animals, one cow, two calves, and one sheep have been found to be affected, making seven in all. An Order has been issued authorising the movement of animals from outside the scheduled area by rail into Canterbury, Folkestone, and Hythe. The inquiries made with a view to ascertain the cause of infection are being proceeded with, but no information has as yet been obtained which throws any light on the matter. No foreign hay or straw has been purchased, and only home manufactured cake and other home-grown fodder has been fed to the cattle or sheep on the farm. So far as the Board have been able to ascertain, there is no reason to think that in this case the infection came from Ireland. The Board hope to be able to allow a fat stock market to be held at Canterbury on Monday, 16th December, provided, of course, that no further outbreak of disease occurs.
§ Mr. W. O'BRIENMay I ask whether the Kent farmer is suffering anything outside a fifteen-mile radius from this outbreak, and, if not, why should not the same system apply to Ireland?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANI regret to say that the Kent farmers are greatly inconvenienced by the arrangements which of 8 necessity have been made, and that the traffic of their animals to and fro has been naturally and of necessity interfered with.
Mr. BATHURSTDo the advisers of the right hon. Gentleman share the view that the disease has been carried into Kent by motor cars coming across from the Continent?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANI have no definite information that I can give the House. We are making inquiries as to every possible source from which infection can come.
§ 4. Mr. STANIERasked the President of the Board of Agriculture if he will state how many boxes are available for livestock at the farm at Pirbright where the animals are to be tested before exported; if any more boxes are being built; and how much accommodation will be available by next summer?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANThe Board did not obtain possession of the farm until Michaelmas last, and no buildings have yet been erected. It is hoped that about fifty boxes will be ready for use early next summer.
§ 5. Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked the President of the Board of Agriculture, whether, in the opinion of his expert advisers, there is a variety of foot-and-mouth disease, properly so-called, the symptoms of which are similar, but which is wholly non-infectious; and, if so, why no evidence to this effect was placed by the Board's many witnesses before the Departmental Committee which lately sat and reported upon the said disease?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANThe Board's veterinary advisers are not aware of any variety of foot-and-mouth disease which is wholly non-infectious.
§ 6. Mr. CHARLES BATHURSTasked whether any further outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease have occurred in the neighbourhood of Ashford or elsewhere in Great Britain since last Wednesday; and whether he proposes to alter or extend the orders of the Board in reference to the admission into Great Britain of Irish stock as the result of the discovery at British ports of evidence of the. disease existing but previously undiscovered in Ireland?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANThe answer to the first part of the question is in the negative. As regards the second part, perhaps 9 the hon. Member will allow me to refer to the reply which I have just given to the hon. Member for North Westmeath.
§ 9. Mr. GUINEYasked whether, in view of the fact that no case of foot-and-mouth disease or any other infectious disease in cattle has occurred in the provinces of Munster and Connaught for the past thirty years, he will recommend the immediate removal of the restrictions on the landing at English. Welsh, and Scotch ports of hay and straw shipped from these provinces?
§ Mr. RUNCIMANIn view of the uncertainty of the position as regards the existence of the disease in Ireland at the present time, I regret that I do not see my way to withdraw the restrictions to which the hon. Member refers.
§ 52. Mr. C. BATHURSTasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the recrudescence of foot-and-mouth disease, both in England and Ireland, the serious present and prospective loss and anxiety in both countries resulting therefrom, and the opinion prevalent among British stock-owners that such outbreaks are likely to continue unless and until there is identity of administration and control in respect of this disease throughout the United Kingdom, he can arrange for joint action and administration on the part of the two Departments with regard to all outbreaks of the disease in both countries during the continuance of the present epidemic?
§ The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Asquith)I will consider whether it is desirable to take any such steps as the hon. Member suggests.
§ Mr. FALCONERMight I ask the Prime Minister whether, in considering that question he will keep in view the fact that if inspection of cattle took place in Ireland the whole of the difficulty might be removed, all the cattle from the unaffected areas might be sent over to this country and sent through the ports without detention and without risk of the deterioration and great extra cost caused by the present system?
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat, no doubt, would be taken into account.
§ 93. Mr. GINNELLasked the Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture (Ireland) how long after the last outbreak of cattle disease the restrictions imposed by the Department may safely be removed; 10 whether this period has now elapsed in Westmeath; and whether the Department will now allow the free movement of cattle, sheep, and pigs there?
§ Mr. T. W. RUSSELL (Vice-President of the Department of Agriculture, Ireland)The Department has never considered the restriction of a scheduled area before the lapse of twenty-eight days from the occurrence of the last case of disease in the district. But the question of restricting any area is entirely within the discretion of the Department, and must depend upon the circumstances of each case. Until the origin of the latest case of disease is discovered it will not be possible to allow any fair to be held in county Westmeath district.
§ Mr. GINNELLAs soon as the origin of the present outbreak has been discovered will this county, if not infected, be freed from the restrictions?
§ Mr. RUSSELLAs soon as the origin of the last outbreak is discovered, the question of Westmeath will be at once considered.
§ Mr. KILBRIDEIn regard to the investigations the right hon. Gentleman is carrying out in that part of the country from which these animals discovered in Birkenhead to be suffering from the disease came, is it not a fact that by no possibility could these animals have come from Connaught or Munster, where no foot-and-mouth disease exists?
§ Mr. RUSSELLI have received notice of a private question on that subject.
§ Mr. FARRELLHaving regard to the fact that there is no foot-and-mouth disease in county Longford, where the fairs are held up by the Westmeath Order, will the right hon. Gentleman take immediate steps to withdraw the Order so far as Longford is concerned?
§ Mr. RUSSELLI must ask the hon. Member to exercise a little patience until the immediate trouble is passed.
§ Mr. FARRELLIt is too much patience we have.
§ Mr. LARDNERI beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question of which I have given him private notice, namely, whether there is now any justification for continuing to schedule Monaghan Rural District as an infected area, in view of the 11 fact that the twenty-eight cattle, forming part of a cargo held up at Birkenhead last week, which were traced to Monaghan, are now admitted to be free from disease; that after careful investigation by the Department's inspector for the past four days in the district around Monaghan no trace of disease has been found anywhere, and that no part of the county Monaghan was involved in any of the recent outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland?
§ Mr. RUSSELLIn reply to the hon. Member's question I have to state that the cargo of the steamship "Iveagh" consisted of 73 cattle, 143 sheep, and 525 swine, all of which were fat animals for slaughter. The cattle have been traced to the following places: A lot of twenty-eight to Rossmore Park, Ballinode, Aghalish, and Monaghan; a lot of twenty-seven to Lurgan, Ballymacully, Caledon, Killylea, Keady, Killeen, Tynan, and Drumcrib; a lot of seven to Banbridge; and six of a lot of eleven to Ballymacor-mott and Newry. The remaining five of this last lot of eleven have been located, but the report as to the precise places has not been received. The five cattle found affected at Birkenhead were stated by the inspectors of the Board of Agriculture to belong to the twenty-seven lot.
§ Sir JOHN LONSDALEDoes the right hon. Gentleman suggest that in any of the places in county Armagh he has just mentioned any trace of foot-and-mouth disease has been discovered?
§ Mr. RUSSELLThat gives me the opportunity of saying that the investigations carried out by the officers of the Department during the last four or five days covered every place where these cattle came from, and we have been unable to find a single trace of the disease.
§ Mr. FALCONERCan the right hon. Gentleman explain the fact that, while two spurious cases of foot-and-mouth disease were detected in Dublin, the cattle in the cargo from Newry to Dublin, which were actually infected, were not detected at Newry?
§ Mr. RUSSELLYes, Sir, for the last three or four weeks, since the store cattle trade became a very large trade, an arrangement was come to between the Department in Ireland and the Board of Agriculture in England that the fat cattle 12 should be mouthed, i.e., critically examined in the mouth, on this side, and not examined in Ireland, and that store cattle should be mouthed, or critically examined, in Ireland. These fat cattle from Newry to Birkenhead were not mouthed and examined in that critical way in Ireland, and the disease was discovered when that operation took place at Birkenhead.
§ Mr. LARDNERDoes the right hon. Gentleman intend to continue the embargo on the Monaghan district in view of the fact that no disease has been found in that district at any time, and that the cattle traced to that district have been admittedly free from the disease?
§ Mr. RUSSELLThat is a question which will require most careful consideration at once.
§ Mr. HUGH BARRIECan the right hon. Gentleman say why that, arrangement was entered into between the Departments? Are we to conclude that the staff of the Irish Department is inadequate to have a full inspection on the Irish side?
§ Mr. T. W. RUSSELLThe hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well that the number of store cattle crossing at certain seasons of the year is enormous, and it may be quite true that pressure on the staff made the examination of both classes of cattle of this critical kind impossible. But at all events the arrangement was come to, and when I say that 600,000 animals have crossed since 30th June, and that this is the first animal that has been detected, I think the hon. Member will admit that the examination must have been pretty critical and pretty close.
§ Captain MURRAYWill the right hon. Gentleman take into consideration the suggestion which I made some days ago as to a belt of buffer counties, and will he consider that along with the President of the Board of Agriculture?
§ Mr. T. W. RUSSELLMy right hon. Friend and I consulted about that very point. It will be a very difficult thing, because of this fact: We have been utterly unable to trace the disease in these four counties that I have scheduled as a precautionary measure, but it is undoubted that an animal reached Birkenhead in a diseased state from these districts, and I am perfectly certain Irish Members will be willing to give us time to get at the facts and to act accordingly. The question of a line of buffer counties was made some time 13 ago, and I know the Department was quite willing to consider it then, and is no less willing to consider it now.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHAlthough one of these shipments was from Newry, is it not a fact that the officers of the Department have been unable to find any trace of the disease in any part of County Down?
§ Mr. T. W. RUSSELLI have just said so. In the four counties affected we have found no trace of the disease.
§ Mr. MacVEAGHMay not the disease Lave been contracted in Birkenhead, then?
§ Sir J. LONSDALEIn view of the serious situation which has arisen in Ireland, will the right hon. Gentleman give facilities for a further discussion on foot-and-mouth disease?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI quite agree with the hon. Gentleman that this is a very serious matter which ought to be taken into account, and I think it might conveniently be raised on the Adjournment tonight.
§ Sir J. LONSDALEIs the right hon. Gentleman not aware that only half an hour is at the disposal of the House for a discussion on the Adjournment, and as this is a matter of vital importance to Ireland, costing the country thousands of pounds per week, does he not think that two or three hours at least might be spent on a discussion?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI think we might see whether the discussion is adequate or not. At any rate, it is an urgent matter, and it had better be taken to-night.
§ Sir J. LONSDALEWill the right hon. Gentleman undertake to ask the permission of the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. John Redmond)?
§ Mr. JOYCEWill the right hon. Gentleman give Irish Members next Saturday and we will come and discuss it?
§ Mr. LOUGHWill the right hon. Gentleman be willing to consider whether the question might be raised before the Adjournment is moved to-night, and then there will be a little more time without much inconvenience to Members?
§ Mr. T. W. RUSSELLThis telegram has just reached me: "Following my previous telegram, report now received that all the farms from which the seventy-three 14 cattle shipped on 'Iveagh' have been inspected, and all animals thereon found perfectly healthy."