HC Deb 04 December 1912 vol 44 cc2437-43

(1) All existing judges of the Supreme Court, and County Court judges, and all existing Irish officers serving in an established capacity in the Civil Service of the Crown and receiving salaries charged on the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, shall, if at the date of the passing of this Act they are removable only on Address from both Houses of Parliament of the United Kingdom, continue to be removable only upon such an Address, and if removable in any other manner shall continue to be removable only in the same manner as before that date; and shall continue to receive the same salaries, gratuities, and pensions, and to be liable to perform the same duties as before that date or such duties as His Majesty may declare to be analogous, and their salaries and pensions shall be paid out of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom, and all sums so paid shall be made good by means of deductions from the Transferred Sum under this Act in accordance with Regulations made by the Treasury.

(2) If any of the said judges or officers retires from office with His Majesty's approbation before completion of the period of service entitling him to a pension, His Majesty may, if he thinks fit, after considering any representation that may be made by the Irish Government, grant to him such pension, not exceeding the pension to which he would on that completion have been entitled, as His Majesty thinks proper.

(3) Sub-section (1) of this Section shall apply to existing Irish officers serving in an established capacity in the Civil Service of the Crown, who, although receiving salaries (payable out of money provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and) not charged on the Consolidated Fund, are removable only for misconduct or incapacity.

Government Amendments:—

In Sub-section (1), after the word "pensions" ["salaries, gratuities, and pensions"], insert the words "and to I enjoy the same rights and privileges."

Leave out the words "paid out of the I Exchequer of the United Kingdom," and I insert instead thereof, the words "charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom or the growing produce thereof."

In Sub-section (3), leave out the words "serving in an established capacity."

Leave out the words "payable out of money provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom and."

At the end of the Clause, add the following words:—

"including officers removable under

Section seventy-three of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877. Provided that, in the case of any such officer whose salary is payable otherwise than out of money provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom, the provisions of that Sub-section with respect to the payment of salaries and pensions out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom shall not have effect, and in the case of any such officer whose salary is payable out of money provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom those provisions shall have effect with the substitution of payment out of money so provided for charges on and payment out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—[Mr. Birrell.]

Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 301; Noes, 178.

Division No. 390.] AYES. [10.50 p.m.
Abraham, William (Dublin, Harbour) Condon, Thomas Joseph Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Acland, Francis Dyke Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Goldstone, Frank
Adamson, William Cotton, William Francis Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
Adkins, Sir W. Ryland D. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Griffith, Ellis Jones
Agnew, Sir George William Crean, Eugene Guest, Hon. Major C. H. C.-(Pembroke)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Crooks, William Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.)
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Crumley, Patrick Guiney, Patrick
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Cullinan, John Gulland, John William
Arnold, Sydney Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway)
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Davies, Ellis William (Eifion) Hackett, J.
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Hall, Frederick (Normanton)
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Daves, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.) Hancock, John George
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Dawes, J. A. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) De Forest, Baron Hardie, J. Keir
Barlow, Sir John Emmott (Somerset) Delany, William Harmsworth, Cecil B. (Luton, Beds)
Barnes, George N. Denman, Hon. R. D. Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)
Barran, Sir John N. (Hawick) Devlin, Joseph Harvey, A. G. C. (Rochdale)
Barton, William Dickinson, W. H. Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.)
Beale, Sir William Phipson Dillon, John Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Beauchamp, Sir Edward Donelan, Captain A. Haslam, James (Derbyshire)
Beck, Arthur Cecil Doris, William Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth)
Bentham, George Jackson Duffy, William J. Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry
Black, Arthur W. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Hayden, John Patrick
Boland, John Pius Duncan, J. Hastings (Yorks, Otley) Hayward, Evan
Booth, Frederick Handel Edwards, Clement (Glamorgan, E.) Hazleton, Richard
Bowerman, C. W. Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Healy, Maurice (Cork)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Elverston, Sir Harold Healy, Timothy Michael (Cork, N. E.)
Brace, William Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Helme, Sir Nerval Watson
Brady, P. J. Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Brocklehurst, William B Essex, Richard Walter Henderson, J. M. (Aberdeen, W.)
Bryce, J. Annan Esslemont, George Birnie Henry, Sir Charles
Burke, E. Haviland- Farrell, James Patrick Higham, John Sharp
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Hinds, John
Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Ferens, Rt. Hon. Thomas Robinson Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H.
Byles, Sir William Pollard Ffrench, Peter Hodge, John
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Field, William Hogge, James Myles
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Holmes, Daniel Turner
Cawley, H. T. (Heywood) Fitzgibbon, John Holt, Richard Durning
Chancellor, H. G. Flavin, Michael Joseph Hope, John Deans (Haddington)
Chapple, Dr. William Allen France, Gerald Ashburner Home, C. Silvester (Ipswich)
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Clancy, John Joseph Gilhooly, James Hudson, Waiter
Clough, William Gill, A. H. Hughes, Spencer Leigh
Clynes, John R. Ginnell, L. Illingworth, Percy H.
Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) Gladstone, W. G. C. Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Glanville, H. J. John, Edward Thomas
Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Swansea) Norton, Captain Cecil W. Scanlan, Thomas
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Jones, J. Towyn (Carmarthen, East) Nuttall, Harry Sheehy, David
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) O'Brien, Fatrick (Kilkenny) Sherwell, Arthur James
Jowett, Frederick William O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Shortt, Edward
Joyce, Michael O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Keating, Matthew O'Doherty, Philip Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Kellaway, Frederick George O'Donnell, Thomas Smith, H. B. L. (Northampton)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Ogden, Fred Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)
Kilbride, Denis O'Grady, James Snowden, Philip
King, J. O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Spicer, Rt. Hon. Sir Albert
Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon, S. Molton) O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N. W.)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Malley, William Sutherland, J. E.
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Sutton, John E.
Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Leach, Charles O'Shee, James John Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Levy, Sir Maurice O'Sullivan, Timothy Taylor, Thomas (Bolton)
Lewis, John Herbert Outhwaite, R. L. Tennant, Harold John
Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Palmer, Godfrey Mark Thomas, James Henry
Low, Sir F. (Norwich) Parker, James (Halifax) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Lundon, T. Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Thorne, William (West Ham)
Lyell, Charles Henry Pearce, William (Limehouse) Toulmin, Sir George
Lynch, A. A. Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Philipps, Col. Ivor (Southampton) Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
McGhee, Richard Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Verney, Sir Harry
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Pirie, Duncan v. Wadsworth, J.
MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, South) Pointer, Joseph Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Pollard, Sir George H. Walton, Sir Joseph
M'Callum, Sir John M. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
M'Kean, John Power, Patrick Joseph Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Wardle, George J.
M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lincs., Spalding) Price, Sir R. J. (Norfolk, E.) Waring, Walter
Manfield, Harry Priestley, Sir W. E. (Bradford) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Pringle, William M. R. Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Marks, Sir George Croydon Radford, G. H. Watt, Henry Anderson
Marshall, Arthur Harold Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Webb, H.
Martin, J. Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)
Mason, David M. (Coventry) Reddy, M. White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E. R.)
Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. Redmond, John E. (Waterford) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Meagher, Michael Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Redmond, William Archer (Tyrone, E.) Wiles, Thomas
Menzies, Sir Walter Rendall, Athelstan Wilkie, Alexander
Millar, James Duncan Richards, Thomas Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Molloy, Michael Richardson, Albion (Peckham) Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Mooney, John J. Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven) Williams, Penry (Middlesbrough)
Morison, Hector Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Roberts, Sir J. H. (Denbighs) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Muldoon, John Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford) Winfrey, Richard
Munro, R. Robinson, Sidney Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Roche, Augustine (Louth) Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Roe, Sir Thomas Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)
Needham, Christopher Thomas Rowlands, James Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Neilson, Francis Rowntree, Arnold
Nicholson, Sir Charles N, (Doncaster) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Nolan, Joseph Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wedgwood Benn and Mr. W. Jones.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Burn, Colonel, C. R. Dixon, C. H.
Aitken, Sir William Max Butcher, John George Doughty, Sir George
Amery, L. C. M. S. Carlile, Sir Edward Hildred Duke, Henry Edward
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H. Faber, George Denison (Clapham)
Ashley, W. W. Cassel, Felix Faber, Capt. W. V. (Hants, W.)
Baird, J. L. Cator, John Falle, B. G.
Balcarres, Lord Cautley, H, S. Fell, Arthur
Baldwin, Stanley Cave, George Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Fleming, Valentine
Barnston, Harry Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Fletcher, John Samuel
Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) Chaloner, Col. R. G. W. Foster, Philip Staveley
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Gardner, Ernest
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Chambers, James Gastrell, Major W. Houghton
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Clay, Capt. H. H. Spender Gibbs, G. A.
Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- Clive, Captain Percy Archer Goldman, C. S.
Beresford, Lord C. Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham Goldsmith, Frank
Bigland, Alfred A. Cooper, Richard Ashmole Gordon, Hon. John Edward (Brighton)
Bird, A. Courthope, George Loyd Goulding, Edward Alfred
Blair, Reginald Craig, Charles Curtis (Antrim, S.) Grant, J. A.
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Craig, Ernest (Cheshire, Crewe) Gretton, John
Boyle, William (Norfolk, Mid) Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S. E.)
Boyton, James Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Guinness, Hon. W. E. (Bury S. Edmunds)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Craik, Sir Henry Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)
Bull, Sir William James Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Haddock, George Bahr
Burdett-Coutts, W. Denniss, E. R. B. Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)
Hambro, Angus Valdemar MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Sanderson, Lancelot
Hamersley, Alfred St. George Mackinder, Halford J. Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Hamilton, Lord C. J. (Kensington, S.) Macmaster, Donald Spear, Sir John Ward
Hamilton, Marquess of (Londonderry) M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Stanier, Beville
Hardy, Rt. Hon. Laurence Magnus, Sir Philip Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Harris, Henry Percy Meysey-Thompson, E. C. Starkey, John Ralph
Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Middlemore, John Throgmorton Staveley-Hill, Henry
Helmsley, Viscount Mildmay, Francis Bingham Steel-Maitland, A. D.
Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Stewart, Gershom
Hewins, William Albert Samuel Moore, William Strauss, Arthur (Paddington, North)
Hickman, Colonel Thomas E. Mount, William Arthur Sykes, Alan John (Ches., Knutsford)
Hill, Sir Clement L. Neville, Reginald J. N. Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Hills, John Waller Newdegate, F. A. Talbot, Lord E.
Hill-Wood, Samuel Newton, Harry Kottingham Thompson, Robert (Belfast, North)
Hoare, S. J. G. Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)
Hohler, G. F. O'Neill, Hon. A. E. B. (Antrim, Mid) Thynne, Lord A.
Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Hope, Major J. A. (Midlothian) Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Touche, George Alexander
Home, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford) Parker, Sir Gilbert (Gravesend) Tryon, Captain George Clement
Houston, Robert Paterson Parkes, Ebenezer Tullibardine, Marquess of
Hume-Williams, Wm. Ellis Peto, Basil Edward Valentia, Viscount
Hunt, Rowland Pole-Carew, Sir R. Wheler, Granville C. H.
Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Pollock, Ernest Murray White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Kerry, Earl of Pretyman, Ernest George Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Kimber, Sir Henry Quilter, Sir William Eley C. Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Randies, Sir John S. Wills, Sir Gilbert
Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Winterton, Earl
Lane-Fox, G. R. Rees, Sir J. D. Wolmer, Viscount
Larmor, Sir J. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Rothschild, Lionel de Yate, Colonel, C. E.
Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Royds, Edmund Yerburgh, Robert A.
Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Rutherford, Watson (L'pool., W. Derby) Younger, Sir George
Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee Salter, Arthur Clavell
Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (S. Geo., Han. S.) Sanders, Robert Arthur Barlow and Mr. H. Barrie.
Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich)

Committee report Progress; to sit again on 9th December (Monday).

The Orders for remaining Government business were read, and postponed.

Whereupon, Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to the Order of the House of 14th October, proposed the Question, "That this House do now adjourn."