HC Deb 06 August 1912 vol 41 cc3129-33

There shall be substituted for the scale of minimum duty payable for publicans' and beerhouse licences in Great. Britain and in Ireland contained in Scale 3, Head C. of the First Schedule of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, the following scale (that is to say):—

Population. Minimum Duty.
Publican's Licence. Beerhouse Licence.
£ s. £ s.
In areas which are not urban areas, and in urban areas with a population of less than 10,000 5 0 3 10
In urban areas with a population of 10,000 or above 7 10 4 0

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


I wish to move this Clause very briefly. The object is to reduce the scale of licence duties in Great Britain to the level of that which prevails in Ireland, A long argument could be presented to the House in support of this proposal, but I do not wish to detain hon. Members at this late hour. I should like it to be understood at once that I have no wish to raise. Irish licence duties above the present scale, but I am strongly of opinion that the licence duties for Great Britain ought to be reduced to the same level as those in Ireland, so as to secure uniformity of treatment.


I am quite sure the hon. Gentlemen will not expect us to say that we can accept the Amendment. It would mean a large reduction in, revenue, and it is impossible that we could entertain it for a moment. The proposal has been discussed before, and the hon. Member will, I am sure, see the impossibility of us accepting it.

2 A.M.


How does the right hon. and learned Gentleman justify this: A particular minimum duty in Dublin is £7 10s.,

whilst the corresponding duty in an English city is £35.


They deal with totally different circumstances and conditions.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 63; Noes, 154.

Division No. 212.] AYES. [2.0 a.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Gibbs, George Abraham Pollock, Ernest Murray
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Glazebrook, Philip K. Pryce-Jones, Col. Edward
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Goldsmith, Frank Ronaldshay, Earl of
Baird, John Lawrence Grant, James Augustus Royds, Edmund
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gretton, John Rutherford, Watson (Liverpool)
Balcarres, Lord Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Henderson, Major H. (Berkshire) Stanier, Beville
Barlow, Montague (Salford, S.) Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury) Starkey, John Ralph
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Staveley-Hill, Henry
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Kerry, Earl of Talbot, Lord Edmund
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Kyffin-Taylor, Gerald Thynne, Lord Alexander
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Lewisham, Viscount Touche, George Alexander
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis F. Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Boyton, James Macmaster, Donald Wheler, Granville C. H.
Bridgeman, William Clive Malcolm, Ian White, Major G. D. (Lanes., Southport)
Burn, Colonel Charles Rosdew Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Cassel, Felix Neville, Reginald J. Neville Winterton, Earl
Cecil, Lord Hugh (Oxford Univ.) Newdegate, F. A. Worthington-Evans, Laming
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Newman, John R. P. Younger, Sir George
Chambers, James Newton, Harry Kottingham
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.
Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. Peto, Basil Edward Samuel Roberts and Mr. Barnston.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Gill, Alfred Henry MacNeill, J. G. Swift (Donegal, S.)
Acland, Francis Dyke Greenwood, G. G. (Peterborough) Macpherson, James Ian
Adamson, William Greig, Colonel James William MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Armitage, Robert Gulland, John William McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Hackett, John Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
Barnes, George N. Hancock, John George Marks, Sir George Croydon
Bentham, George Jackson Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Marshall, Arthur Harold
Boland, John Pius Harmsworth, C. B. (Beds, Luton) Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Booth, Frederick Handel Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Bowerman, Charles W. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Meehan, Rrancis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Molloy, Michael
Brady, Patrick Joseph Hayden, John Patrick Mooney, John J.
Burke, E. Haviland- Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Morison, Hector
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Henry, Sir Charles S. Muldoon, John
Byles, Sir William Pollard Higham, John Sharp Munro, Robert
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.
Clancy, John Joseph Hogge, James Myles Nannetti, Joseph P.
Clough, William Hudson, Walter Nolan, Joseph
Clynes, John R. Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Illingworth, Percy H. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Cotton, William Francis Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus O'Doherty, Philip
Crumley, Patrick John, Edward Thomas O'Donnell, Thomas
Cullinan, John Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Grady, James
Dawes, James Arthur Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) O'Kelly, E. P. (Wicklow, W.)
Delany, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) O'Malley, William
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Jowett, Frederick William O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)
Devlin, Joseph Joyce, Michael O'Shaugnessy, P. J.
Dillon, John Keating, Matthew O'Shee, James John
Donelan, Captain A. Kellaway, Frederick George O'Sullivan, Timothy
Duffy, William J. Kilbride, Denis Outhwaite, Robert Leonard
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) King, Joseph Parker, James (Halifax)
Duncan, J. hustings (York, Otley) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. (Devon S.Molton) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Eliklbank, Rt. Hon. Master of Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pointer, Joseph
Esmonde, Dr. J. (Tipperary, N.) Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Esmonde, Sir T. (Wexford, N.) Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Power, Patrick Joseph
Farrell, James Patrick Lewis, John Herbert Price, C. E. (Edinburgh Central)
Ffrench, Peter Lundon, Thomas Price, Sir Robert J. (Norfolk, E.)
Field, William Lynch, Arthur Alfred Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Prlngle, William M. R.
Flavin, Michael Joseph Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Rattan, Peter Wilson
George, Rt. Hon. David Lloyd Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Reddy, Michael Shortt, Edward Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Simon, Sir John Allsebrook Webb, Henry
Redmond, William (Clare, E.) Smith, Albert (Lanes., Ciltheroe) Wedgwood, Joslah C.
Richards, Thomas Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim. S.) White, James Dundas (Glasgow)
Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoin) Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Roberts, George H. (Norwich) Sutton, John E. Wilkie, Alexander
Robertson, John M. (Tyneside) Taylor, John W. (Durham) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Roche, Augustine (Louth, N.) Tennant, Harold John
Rowlands, James Thwne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Scanlan, Thomas Trevelyan, Charles Philips Wedgwood Benn and Mr. Geoffrey-
Seely, Rt. Hon. Colonel Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Howard.
Sheehy, David Wadsworth, John

Resolution agreed to.