§ Where an estate, in respect of which Estate Duty is payable on the death of a person dying on or after the thirtieth day of April, nineteen hundred and nine, comprises land on which timber, trees, wood, or underwood are growing, the value of such timber, trees, wood, or underwood shall not be taken into account in estimating the principal value of the estate or the rate of Estate Duty, and Estate Duty shall not be payable thereon, but shall, at the rate due to the principal value of the estate be payable on the net moneys (if any) after deducting all necessary outgoings since the death of the deceased, which may from time to time be received from the sale of timber, trees, or wood when felled or cut during the period which may elapse until the land, on the death of some other person, again becomes liable or would but for this Sub-section have become liable to Estate Duty, and the owners or trustees of such land shall account for and pay the same accordingly as and when such moneys are received, with interest at the rate of three per cent. per annum from the date when such moneys are received.
§ This Section shall take effect in substitution for the first paragraph of Sub-section five of Section sixty-one of the Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910, and that paragraph and Section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1911, are hereby repealed.
§ Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ Mr. WHELER
I beg to move the Clause standing in my name. The present aggregation of timber with the other portions of 2820 the estate has undoubtedly worked considerable hardship, especially in the case of estates where the value of the agricultural land has been low, because it has increased the percentage of duty payable. I understand the Chancellor of the Exchequer has accepted the Amendment and I can only say that the acceptance of that Amendment will undoubtedly encourage many to do much more in the way of improving their woods, and allowing timber to grow until it is absolutely fit to be cut. It will also encourage those who have in the past neglected their underwoods, and it should in no way be looked upon as a gift to vested interests. AH industries which require timber will in the long run benefit.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
This is an Amendment I promised to consider last year, as I felt a case had been made out for giving it special consideration. We are making a real effort at the afforestation of waste lands, and we thought it would be mistaken policy to do anything that would encourage the stripping of land already having timber growing upon it. This has been the policy of successive Liberal Chancellors of the Exchequer, and I am not departing in the slightest degree from the principles laid down in the Budgets of 1894 and 1909. Concessions in this direction have been made from time to time.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I do not wonder that the landlords are extremely pleased with this Amendment. It is one that will be of great value to them. I should like the Committee to understand what is our argument. It is said that the growing of timber should be encouraged in this country by exemption from Death Duties, but I maintain that the arguments in favour of the exemption of timber are every bit as strong for the extension of the building of workmen's dwellings. Why is timber the one improvement upon the land which is to be exempted from Death Duties? Under this Clause any timber upon the land, including trees, wood, or underwood, are to be exempted from the Death Duties. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I will read the Clause. [Clause read.] Its object is to exempt timber from the payment of Death Duties, so long as it is not felled, and making them payable when it is felled.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
I think my hon. Friend (Mr. Wedgwood) has not had time to look at the position. Timber was exempted from the payment of Death Duties until it is felled, and the proceeds realised. Death Duty only accrued due when the timber was felled. That is part of our policy to discourage the unnecessary felling of timber. Although timber was not charged Death Duty until it was felled, it was valued for the purpose of increasing the aggregate value of the estate, and it might put up the scale, although the landlord was exempted from the payment of Death Duty until he realised. This is purely the completion of a concession which had already been made in respect of timber. There is no departure in principle. It is carrying out the principle already adopted in previous Budgets.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
The principle is a bad principle. The principle is to encourage the growth of timber for the construction of game preserves. We want more houses for the people, and fewer woods for the game. The law, as it stands at present, is so devised as to exempt timber from Death Duties until it is felled. That law has been passed in order to encourage the construction of covers for game. Trees and underwoods are mentioned here.
§ Mr. PRETYMAN
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that underwoods are used for hurdle-making, hop poles, and many other purposes, and that underwoods of good chestnut or hazel, if properly grown and cared for, and, if the rabbits are kept down, which is a most essential thing, you can get nearly £1 an acre for it; and there is a great deal more underwood grown for that purpose than is grown simply for game?
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I think the hon. Gentleman is wrong. I think he will find, particularly in the southern counties, that most of the underwood which used to be worth £1 an acre is bringing in nothing at all, and that casks are made now from imported wood, and these woods are far more largely used for game preserving. But even if they are used for useful purposes, even if all the underwood and the timber is a valuable product created by labour out of the soil, I would still say it is more important to exempt buildings from Death Duties than to exempt timber or underwood. In one case you are exempting something that is useful in certain forms and in the other case you are exempting the houses of the people. I do not approve of the original exemption of timber and woods, whether used for game preserving or for purposes of production. I should vote against any extension of that principle. Instead of extending the principle, it ought to be reduced. Either exempt all improvements or no improvements. If you are going to exempt improvements from taxation, it would be far better to exempt those which are necessary to the well-being of the people instead of those which are merely necessary for game preserving.
§ Mr. JOHN WARD
I confess, after the short discussion that has taken place, the Clause is not nearly so bad as I thought it was, but you must excuse us because anything accepted by the Opposition is opposed to the interests of the general public. It is rather surprising if there is nothing in it that the Opposition are so delighted with the concession. What do the officials of the Chancellor of the Exchequer imagine is the sum involved in this concession? To all the other Amendments suggested by the Opposition the Chancellor stated the sum involved to the Exchequer. The question of concessions to this interest and that interest would naturally be discussed in Committee, but no interest has been considered except the ownership of trees and woods and forests. The only concessions the right hon. Gentleman is making are to the extremely wealthy sections of the community, those who can afford to have great parks and woods, and immense territories entirely at their disposal, while other people are almost aliens, as it were, in their own land. After all, the right hon. Gentleman might have made concessions to some more desirable and deserving section of the community than those who are already by far too wealthy.
§ Sir A. MARKHAM
I want to know what this concession is worth. We are entirely in the dark. The right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Worcestershire (Mr. Austen Chamberlain), says it is a valuable concession.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
It is very difficult to estimate the value of the concession for this reason: A special concession has already been made with regard to this very timber. I have already explained to my hon. Friend that timber is exempt already except when felled. We have not up to the present had any experience as to what that concession really means. If we had a valuation showing what the value of the timber in England is at the present moment, I could answer my hon. Friend, but it is quite impossible for me to say what the concession in regard to timber is worth. It has to be divided into two parts. That is the difficulty, otherwise I would be very happy to answer the question.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
It seems to me that the Treasury might give some estimate of what the concession is to be. The hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. Pretyman) pointed out that the annual revenue in the case of underwood differed materially from that of the rest of the subjects mentioned in the Amendment.
§ Mr. PRETYMAN
I said that, underwood properly cultivated in many parts of the country will yield a revenue equal to £1 an acre a year. In every twelfth or fourteenth year that would be the revenue when the felling takes place.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I understand the hon. Gentleman to say that he cuts his underwood every twelfth or fourteenth year and that it yields £12 or £14 an acre.
§ He thereby differentiates underwood from wood that requires time to mature both because it is a source of annual revenue, and also because it is not so important to encourage the growing of underwood as the growing of forest trees. I suggest that the new Clause should be amended by the omission of the words "or underwood." Directly you include underwood you create infinite difficulties for the valuers. It is grown in plots of two to five acres, and if you exempt from the total value of an estate as ascertained under the Finance Act of 1909–10, the value of every little plot of wood which may be called underwood, you are going to make endless difficulties for the valuers.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
My hon. Friend is absolutely wrong in thinking that it would involve delay in valuation. It would be quite the reverse, and from that point of view it is an undoubted advantage.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
Under the valuation of the Budget all the timber has to be valued at present on these estates. This has to be the full site value3 the gross value including timber as well. If, after you have made that gross valuation, you have to deduct certain improvements made upon land you are going to prolong the valuation and make it more difficult to arrive at the true value. Therefore I think that the word "underwood" should be deleted.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 319; Noes, 17;2827
|Division No. 200.]||AYES.||[11.55 p.m.|
|Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)||Bennett-Goldney, Francis||Burke, E. Haviland-|
|Acland, Francis Dyke||Bentham, George Jackson||Burn, Colonel C. R.|
|Agg-Gardner, James Tynte||Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-||Burns, Rt. Hon. John|
|Archer-Shee, Major||Beresford, Lord C.||Byles, Sir William Pollard|
|Armitage, R.||Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine||Campion, W. R.|
|Ashley, W. W.||Black, Arthur W.||Carr-Gomm, H. W.|
|Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry||Boland, John Pius||Cassel, Felix|
|Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J.||Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue||Castlereagh, Viscount|
|Baird, J. L.||Booth, Frederick Handel||Cautley, H. S.|
|Baker, Harold T. (Accrington)||Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-||Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)|
|Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)||Bowerman, C. W.||Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)|
|Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.)||Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North)||Chambers, James|
|Balcarres, Lord||Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)||Clancy, John Joseph|
|Banbury, Sir Frederick George||Boyton, James||Clive, Captain Percy Archer|
|Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)||Brace, William||Clough, William|
|Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)||Brady, P. J.||Coztes, Major sir Edward Feetham|
|Barnston, H.||Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell||Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)|
|Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton)||Bridgeman, W. Clive||Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)|
|Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks||Brocklehurst, William B.||Condon, Thomas Joseph|
|Beck, Arthur Cecil||Bryce, J. Annan||Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.|
|Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)||Buckmaster, Stanley O.||Cotton, William Francis|
|Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich)||Bull, Sir William James||Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)|
|Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, S. Geo.)||Burgoyne, A. H.||Crooks, William|
|Crumley, Patrick||Hudson, Walter||Peto, Basil Edward|
|Cullinan, John||Hughes, Spencer Leigh||Pollock, Ernest Murray|
|Dalrymple, Viscount||Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)||Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.|
|Dalziel, D. (Brixton)||Illingworth, Percy H.||Power, Patrick Joseph|
|Davies, Ellis William (Eifion)||Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus||Pretyman, Ernest George|
|Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)||Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)||Primrose, Hon. Neil James|
|Dawes, J. A.||Jessel, Capt. H. M.||Pringle, William M. R.|
|Delaney, William||Jones, Rt. Hon. Sir D. Brynmor (Sw'nsea)||Pryce-Jones, Col. E.|
|Denman, Hon. R. D.||Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)||Quilter, Sir William Eley C.|
|Denniss, E. R. B.||Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth)||Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel|
|Devlin, Joseph||Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)||Rawson, Col. Richard H.|
|Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott-||Jones, William S. Glyn- (Stepney)||Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)|
|Dillon, John||Joyce, Michael||Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)|
|Donelan, Captain A.||Joynson-Hicks, William||Reddy, M.|
|Duffy, William||Kellaway, Frederick George||Redmond, John E. (Waterford)|
|Duke, Henry Edward||Kennedy, Vincent Paul||Redmond, William (Clare)|
|Duncan, c. (Barrow-in-Furness)||Kerry, Earl of||Rees, Sir J. D.|
|Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of||Kilbride, Denis||Remnant, James Farquharson|
|Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)||Knight, Captain Eric Ayshford||Richardson, Albion (Peckham)|
|Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)||Kyffin-Taylor, G.||Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)|
|Essex, Richard Walter||Larmor, Sir J.||Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)|
|Eyres-Mensell, Bolton M.||Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)||Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)|
|Faber, George Denison (Clapham)||Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts. Mile End)||Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)|
|Falle, B. G.||Lewis, John Herbert||Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)|
|Farrell, James Patrick||Lewisham, Viscount||Roche, Augustine (Louth)|
|Fell, Arthur||Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)||Rolleston, Sir John|
|Ffrench, Peter||Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)||Ronaldshay, Earl of|
|Field, William||Lundon, T.||Rowlands, James|
|Fitzgibbon, John||Lyell, Charles Henry||Royds, Edmund|
|Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.||Lynch, A. A.||Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)|
|Flavin, Michael Joseph||Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)||Salter, Arthur Clavell|
|Fleming, Valentine||Mackinder, Halford J.||Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)|
|Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)||Macmaster, Donald||Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel)|
|Foster, Philip Staveley||Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.||Sanders, Robert Arthur|
|Gastrell, Major W. Houghton||MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South)||Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)|
|George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd||Macpherson, James Ian||Scanlan, Thomas|
|Gibbs, G. A.||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)|
|Gill, A. H.||McGhee, Richard||Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.|
|Glanville, H. J.||McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald||Sheehy, David|
|Glazebrook, Capt, Philip K.||McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)||Shortt, E.|
|Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford||Malcolm, Ian||Simon, Sir John Allsebrook|
|Goldsmith, Frank||Markham, Sir Arthur Basil||Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)|
|Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)||Marshall, Arthur Harold||Stanier, Beville|
|Goulding Edward Alfred||Mason, David M. (Coventry)||Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)|
|Grant, J. A.||Mason, James F. (Windsor)||Starkey, John Ralph|
|Greene, W. R.||Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.||Steel-Maitland, A. D.|
|Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)||Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)||Stewart, Gershom|
|Greig, Colonel J. W.||Mildmay, Francis Bingham||Swift, Rigby|
|Gretton, John||Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas||Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)|
|Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward||Molloy, Michael||Talbot, Lord E.|
|Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)||Mooney, John||Tennant, Harold John|
|Gulland, John William||Morgan, George Hay||Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)|
|Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)||Morison, Hector||Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, North)|
|Hackett, J.||Muldoon, John||Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)|
|Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)||Munro, R.||Thynne, Lord A.|
|Hall, Fred (Dulwich)||Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C.||Tobin, Alfred Aspinall|
|Hall, Frederick (Normanton)||Nannetti, Joseph P.||Touche, George Alexander|
|Hamersley, Alfred St. George||Needham, Christopher Thomas||Trevelyan, Charles Philips|
|Hancock, John George||Neville, Reginald J. N.||Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander|
|Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale)||Newdegate, F. A.||Wadsworth, J.|
|Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)||Newman, John R. P.||Walker, Col. William Hall|
|Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)||Newton, Harry Kottingham||Walrond, Hon. Lionel|
|Harmsworth, R. L. (Caithness-shire)||Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield)||Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)|
|Harris, Henry Percy||Nield, Herbert||Wardle, George J.|
|Harrison-Broadley, H. B.||Nolan, Joseph||Webb, H.|
|Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)||Norman, Sir Henry||Wheler, Granville C. H.|
|Haslam, James (Derbyshire)||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)||White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)|
|Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry||O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)||White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston)|
|Hayden, John Patrick||O'Doherty, Philip||White, Patrick (Meath, North)|
|Hayward, Evan||O'Donnell, Thomas||Williams, John (Glamorgan)|
|Henderson, Arthur (Durham)||O'Dowd, John||Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude|
|Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)||O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)||Wolmer, Viscount|
|Henry, Sir Charles||O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)||Wood, John (Stalybridge)|
|Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)||O'Malley, William||Worthington-Evans, L.|
|Hewins, William Albert Samuel||O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)||Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-|
|Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.||Wright, Henry Fitzherbert|
|Hill, Sir Clement L.||O'Shee, James John||Yate, Colonel C. E.|
|Hills, John Waller||O'Sullivan, Timothy||Yerburgh, Robert|
|Hinds, John||Parkes, Ebenezer||Younger, Sir George|
|Hodge, John||Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)||Yoxall, Sir James Henry|
|Hogge, James Myles||Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)|
|Holmes, Daniel Turner||Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)|
|Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)||Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.|
|Hope, John Deans (Haddington)||Peel, Hon. William R. W. (Taunton)||Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest.|
|Horne, Wm. E. (Surrey, Guildford)||Perkins, Walter F.|
|Clynes, John R.||Outhwaite, R. L.||Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)|
|Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)||Parker, James (Halifax)||Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)|
|Higham, John Sharp||Pointer, Joseph||Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)|
|Jowett, Frederick William||Raffan, Peter Wilson|
|Lambert, Richard (Wilts., Cricklade)||Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.|
|Lansbury, George||Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)||Wedgwood and Mr. Price.|
|O'Grady, James||Thorne, William (West Ham)|
§ Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I beg to move to leave out the words "or underwood" ["trees, wood or underwood."]
The object of the new Clause is to bring estates down in value, so that they may be assessed at the lower value. If timber is exempted I do think we might at least leave underwood and I submit it is a form of improvement which should not be exempted.
If the hon. Member's Amendment were carried would it not have the effect of increasing the charge on the subject?
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
The Clause has not yet been added to the Bill, and the question of how much of it shall stand part has still to be decided. Therefore, I submit, the Amendment is in order. The object of exempting growing timber is obviously to encourage the growing of timber. But if the growing of underwood is a marketable proposition, if underwood can be sold for £14 an acre every fourteen years, let it stand on its own legs like any other form of agriculture. But if underwoods are used principally for game and rabbits—[Opposition laughter.] Hon. Members opposite seem to think that they are the only people who know what these underwoods are used for.
If the hon. Member would address the Chair and confine his remarks to the Amendment it would conduce to greater order in Debate.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I was led away by the hilarity on the other side. A great deal of the underwood is used for game preserving, and anything which by the exemption of underwood tends to bring estates down below the limiting value for Death Duties will tend to encourage the growing of underwood and thereby encourage game preserving. I do not think the concession will amount to very much, but insofar as it reduces estates below £100,000, £500,000, or £1,000,000, you will have an enormous reduction in the amount of duty payable 2828 by the landowners. If in any case it brought an estate below £1,000,000 there would be a saving of many thousands of pounds in Death Duties to the owner, and all simply to encourage the growing of underwoods. So far as underwoods are a business proposition, they should stand on their own legs like the building of cottages. [Opposition laughter.] I submit to the Committee that the omission of these words would serve, in the first place, to keep up the public revenue from the Death Duties, because they would prevent the estate going accidentally below the £100,000 or £1,000,000, as the case might be; and, in the second place, it is not desirable that any remission from taxation should cover a single yard of the extension of the game preserves of this country.
I have considered the point of Order raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Colchester, I do not think it quite applicable, because the effect of this Amendment, if carried, would not be to add a tax on somebody's shoulders. It may be put this way: It is the mitigation or minimising of the benefit proposed by the new Clause, which has just been read a second time, and which is now, of course, open for Amendment in detail.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGE
In reply to my hon. Friend, I hope that now he has made his protest against the whole Clause, he will see his way not to press his Amendment. If a concession is to be made at all, certainly it is in the interests of the revenue that it should be made in this form, because he had already included underwood in the concession which I have described. My hon. Friend said something about delay. There is no doubt as to the delay that would be caused if you had to separate the value of the underwood from the timber, and to go scavengering around the estate for the underwood.
§ Sir A. MARKHAM
I suggest that it is the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to go around scavengering in the way he has described. There is one thing 2829 we ought to have had in this discussion and that is the intervention of the hon. Members for North-West Norfolk (Mr. Hemmerde) and Leigh (Mr. Raffan). There is as much rottenness in these arguments as in those for the single tax.
§ Mr. RAFFAN
The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for North-West Norfolk and myself would not apologise for hon. Members either on this side or the other who are landlords' friends. Personally it is a matter of deep regret to me that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who is hated by the vested interests in this country, and beloved in the cottage homes of the people, should, to the accompaniment of cheers from the other side, as well as with cheers from this side, have taken up an attitude that will convey deep disappointment to many of those—[HON. MEMBERS: "Single taxers"]—not merely single taxers, but to many of those who look to him to redress the grievances which are very real in this country at the present time. I submit to the Committee that the arguments advanced in support of this Clause are entirely destructive of the proposal to retain the words proposed to be left out.
It is urged that if you continue to make timber pay death duties in the manner proposed you are preventing the land being put to its best use, which is the growth of timber. My hon. Friends and I are not entirely convinced that that would be the case, but so far as the argument is sound it is an argument about which we are in sympathy, but can that view be urged with regard to underwood. There can be no doubt that a large amount of underwood in the country is used for cover for pheasants, and that is the reason why hon. Gentlemen on the other side are so keenly interested in maintaining the Clause in its present form. What does that mean in many cases in this country? My attention was drawn last week to a case in which a farmer, farming 500 acres, a man who has voted Tory at every election, has now been served with notice to quit his farm by the landlord because he complained of the destruction on his farm by game, and this man will be compelled to emigrate because of his action. That man is not a single taxer, but a roan who by hard experience has now found out what landlordism is.
§ Sir F. BANBURY
On a point of Order. The Amendment before the Committee is the question as to whether underwood should be exempt from the Clause, and 2830 may I ask Mr. Whitley whether the action of a farmer who voted Tory has anything to do with it.
I was waiting to see how it was to be connected. I understand the argument to be that the retention of the word "underwood" would encourage the presence of game. I think that is an argument, but I do not think it would be right to allow the matter to be diverted into a debate on the preservation of game.
§ Mr. RAFFAN
I simply rose, Mr. Whitley, in response to the taunt from the landlord representative on this side of the House and the cheers of the landlord party on the other side, to point out that the retention of these words are welcomed by the landlord interest and are not in the interests of the tenants.
§ Mr. RAFFAN
I only rose to point out that a man like this evicted farmer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear"]—an evicted farmer apparently is a cause for joke to the landlord party. It is no joke to these poor men who do not grasp economic principles, who do not talk about a "single tax," who know what landlord-made laws mean, what game preserving means, and what the encouragement of this underwood means. All these things are turning these men from the party they believed would serve the farming interest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has their interests at heart, but who has taken a mistaken sense of his duty in these cases. I regret that he has accepted this Amendment. If my hon. Friend insists on going to a division, if I stand alone I shall go with him. I know if we take a Division it is necessary for somebody to stand at the door, and for somebody else to go inside. I object to these further concessions to-night, and I shall use every opportunity given to me to go into the Lobby against them.
I should not like to say precisely what the difference is by the use of these words, but I cannot say that they would make no difference. I think they would involve certain consequential Amendments later on.
§ Mr. HOGGE
I wish to know whether heather is underwood? If heather is underwood—and I do not see why it should not be, judging from the discussion we have listened to—this is going to affect something between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 acres of land in Scotland which is preserved for the purposes of game; and, if that be so, I shall certainly go into the Lobby against it.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
It does not really matter what the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks, but what the judges decide hereafter. Here you are giving them an opportunity of denning underwood, and, when judges got an opportunity of denning an Act of Parliament, they are very apt to define it in the interests of the landlord party.
§ Mr. WEDGWOOD
I withdraw it with pleasure. At present it is easy enough to calculate the timber. It is made a deduction, and duty is not charged upon it. Osier beds and underwood are included, and no exemption on behalf of them is claimed, but, now you make this Amendment, and allow deductions not for the purposes of the Death Duties but for the purpose of getting below a certain limit so that a lower rate of Death Duty is charged, you will have every exemption claimed that is possible. At present it does not pay landlords to claim exemptions from underwood, osier beds, heather, or whatever it may be because owing to the frequency with which osier beds are cut postponement is not long. Directly you give the landlord the opportunity of using the value of all his underwood of all sort and kind as a deduction so as to bring the estate under a certain Statutory value, then every landlord will claim every possible thing as underwood in order to get these very great exemptions. Therefore, in spite of what fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I shall persist in this Amendment, and, if possible, get the Committee to vote upon it.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 289; Noes, 33.2833
|Division No. 201.]||AYES.||[12.30 a.m.|
|Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour)||Boyton, James||Cullinan, John|
|Acland, Francis Dyke||Brady, P. J.||Dalrymple, Viscount|
|Agg-Gardner, James Tynte||Brasscy, H. Leonard Campbell||Davies, E. William (Eifion)|
|Archer-Shee, Major M.||Bridgeman, W. Clive||Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)|
|Armitage, R.||Buckmaster, Stanley Owen||Dawes, James Arthur|
|Ashley, Wilfrid W.||Bull, Sir William James||Delany, William|
|Baird, J. L.||Burgoyne, A. H.||Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas|
|Baker, H. T. (Accrington)||Burke, E. Haviland-||Denniss, E. R. B.|
|Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.)||Burn, Colonel C. R.||Devlin, Joseph|
|Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.)||Burns, Rt. Hon. John||Dicks on, Rt. Hon. C. S.|
|Balcarres, Lord||Byles, Sir William Pollard||Dillon, John|
|Banbury, Sir Frederick George||Campion, W. R.||Donelan, Captain A.|
|Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester)||Carr-Gomm, H. W.||Duffy, William J.|
|Barlow, Montague (Salford, South)||Cassel, Felix||Duke, Henry Edward|
|Barnston, Harry||Castlereagh, Viscount||Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of|
|Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton)||Cautley, Henry Strother||Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.)|
|Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks||Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)||Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.)|
|Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth)||Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.)||Essex, Richard Walter|
|Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich)||Chambers, James||Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M.|
|Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.)||Clancy, John Joseph||Faber, George D. (Clapham)|
|Bennett-Goldney, Francis||Clive, Captain Percy Archer||Falle, Bertram Godfray|
|Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish-||Clough, William||Farrell, James Patrick|
|Beresford, Lord Charles||Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham||Ffrench, Peter|
|Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine||Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock)||Field, William|
|Black, Arthur W.||Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)||Fitzgibbon, John|
|Boland, John Pius||Condon, Thomas Joseph||Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.|
|Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue||Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.||Flavin, Michael Joseph|
|Booth, Frederick Handel||Cotton, William Francis||Fleming, Valentine|
|Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith-||Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet)||Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead)|
|Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.)||Crooks, William||Foster, Philip Staveley|
|Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid)||Crumley, Patrick||Gastrell, Major W. H.|
|George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd||Lyell, Charles Henry||Reddy, Michael|
|Gibbs, George Abraham||Lynch, Arthur Alfred||Redmond, John E. (Waterford)|
|Glazebrook, Capt. Philip K.||Mackinder, H. J.||Redmond, William (Clare, E.)|
|Goldsmith, Frank||Macmaster, Donald||Rees, Sir J. D.|
|Gordon, John (Londonderry, South)||Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J.||Remnant, James Farquharson|
|Goulding Edward Alfred||MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South)||Richardson, Albion (Peckham)|
|Grant, J. A.||Macpherson, James Ian||Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)|
|Greene, Walter Raymond||MacVeagh, Jeremiah||Roberts, George H. (Norwich)|
|Greig, Colonel J. W.||MacGhee, Richard||Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)|
|Gretton, John||McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald||Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)|
|Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward||McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's)||Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)|
|Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds)||Malcolm, Ian||Roche, Augustine (Louth)|
|Gulland, John W.||Markham, Sir Arthur Basil||Rolleston, Sir John|
|Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne)||Mason, David M. (Coventry)||Ronaldshay, Earl of|
|Hackett, J.||Mason, James F. (Windsor)||Rowlands, James|
|Haddock, George Bahr||Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.||Royds, Edmund|
|Hall, D. B. (Isle of Wight)||Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)||Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)|
|Hall, Fred (Dulwich)||Mildmay, Francis Bingham||Salter, Arthur Clavell|
|Hall, F. (Yorks, Normanton)||Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas||Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)|
|Hamersley, Alfred St. George||Molloy, M.||Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel)|
|Hancock, John George||Montagu, Hon. E. S.||Sanders, Robert A.|
|Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)||Mooney, John J.||Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)|
|Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)||Morgan, George Hay||Scanlan, Thomas|
|Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)||Morison, Hector||Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.|
|Harris, Henry Percy||Muldoon, John||Sheehy, David|
|Harrison-Broadley, H. B.||Munro, R.||Shortt, Edward|
|Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)||Murray, Captain Hon. A. C.||Simon, Sir John Allsebrook|
|Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry||Nannetti, Joseph P.||Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)|
|Hayden, John Patrick||Needham, Christopher T.||Stanier, Beville|
|Hayward, Evan||Neville, Reginald J. N.||Stanley, Albert (Staffs., N.W.)|
|Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon)||Newdegate, F. A.||Starkey, John Ralph|
|Henry, Sir Charles||Newman, John R. P.||Steel-Maitland, A. D.|
|Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)||Newton, Harry Kottingham||Stewart, Gershom|
|Hewins, William Albert Samuel||Nicholson, Win. G. (Petersfield)||Swift, Rigby|
|Hickman, Col. T. E.||Nield, Herbert||Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)|
|Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)||Nolan, Joseph||Talbot, Lord E.|
|Hills, John Waller (Durham)||Norman, Sir Henry||Tennant, Harold John|
|Hinds, John||O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)||Terrell, Henry (Gloucester)|
|Hohler, G. F.||O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)||Thomson, w. Mitchell- (Down, N.)|
|Holmes, Daniel Turner||O'Doherty, Philip||Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)|
|Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)||O'Donnell, Thomas||Thynne, Lord Alexander|
|Hope, John Deans (Haddington)||O'Dowd, John||Tobin, Alfred Aspinall|
|Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford)||O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)||Touche, George Alexander|
|Hughes, S. L.||O'Malley, William||Trevelyan, Charles Philips|
|Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath)||O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.)||Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander|
|Illingworth, Percy H.||O'Shaughnessy, P. J.||Wadsworth, John|
|Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus||O'Shee, James (Halifax)||Walker, Colonel William Hall|
|Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, E.)||O'Sullivan, Timothy||Walrond, Hon. Lionel|
|Jessel, Captain H. M.||Parkes, Ebenezer||Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)|
|Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Sw'nsea)||Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)||Webb, H.|
|Jones, H, Haydn (Merioneth)||Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)||Wheler, Granville C. H.|
|Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)||Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)||White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)|
|Joyce, Michael||Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)||White, James Douglas (Glasgow)|
|Joynson-Hicks, William||Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)||White, Patrick (Meath, North)|
|Kellaway, Frederick George||Perkins, Walter Frank||Williams, John (Glamorgan)|
|Kennedy, Vincent Paul||Peto, Basil Edward||Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude|
|Kerry, Earl of||Pollock, Ernest Murray||Wood, John (Stalybridge)|
|Kilbride, Denis||Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.||Worthington-Evans, L.|
|Knight, Capt. E. A.||Power, Patrick Joseph||Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-|
|Kyffin-Taylor, G.||Pretyman, Ernest George||Wright, Henry Fitzherbert|
|Larmor, Sir J.||Primrose, Hon. Neil James||Yate, Col. C. E.|
|Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West)||Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.||Younger, Sir George|
|Lewis, John Herbert||Quilter, Sir William Eley C.||Yoxall, Sir James Henry|
|Lewisham, Viscount||Rawson, Colonel Richard H.|
|Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)||Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)||TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr.|
|Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)||Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)||Geoffrey Howard and Cantain Guest.|
|Bentham, G. J.||Hudson, Walter||Price, C. E. (Edinburgh Central)|
|Bowerman, Charles W.||Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil)||Pringle, William M. R.|
|Brace, William||Jowett, Frederick William||Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)|
|Brocklehurst, W. B.||Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade)||Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)|
|Clynes, John R.||Lansbury, George||Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)|
|Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)||Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester)||Thorne, William (West Ham)|
|Gill, Alfred Henry||Marshall, Arthur Harold||Wardle, George J.|
|Glanville, [...]. J.||Morrell, Philip||Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)|
|Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)||O'Grady, James||Young, W. (Perthshire, E.)|
|Henderson, Arthur (Durham)||Outhwaite, R. L.|
|Higham, John Sharp||Parker, James (Halifax)||TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.|
|Hogge, James Myles||Pointer, Joseph||Wedgwood and Mr. Raffan.|
§ Mr. HICKS BEACH
In view of the announcement made, I do not propose to move all my Clauses, but I wish to say a word or two about the Second Clause on the paper in my name.
The Clause referred to by the hon. Member was in the following terms:—