§ It is hereby declared that roadstone shall be included in the minerals exempted from payment of Mineral Rights Duty under Section twenty, Sub-section (5) of The Finance (1909–10) Act, 1910.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the new Clause be read a Second time."
§ Mr. JAMES MASONThe only one of the clauses standing in my name I desire to move is this one, which deals with the exemption of roadstone, and the reason I wish very shortly to move this Clause is that this again is a question which very much interests the local authorities throughout the country, and of course adds to the already sufficiently large number of grievances which they have when they find that local taxation has to suffer for the benefit of Imperial taxes. Of course, at the present time there is no definition whatever of what a mineral is, and, so long as there is no definition, I think the ordinary man would say that a mineral was either a mineral fuel, such as coal, or one of the metalliferous ores—that is an ore from which some metal is smelted—but unfortunately the Sub-section which was introduced into the Finance Bill of 1809–10, Clause 5, Sub-section 5, dealt with a cer- 2836 tain number of exemptions, and of course, those exemptions have, as is very often the case, produced some considerable amount of confusion. The exemptions from this mineral rights duty include, among other things, limestone. I may say there are only seven substances mentioned—common clay, common brick clay, common brick earth, or sand, chalk, limestone, or gravel.
It is fair to assume that these exemptions were made principally in the interest of the building trade, but, curiously enough, the question of whether limestone is exempt or not from this tax depends not upon its suitability for building, but upon the mere question of analysis as to whether or not the stone contains lime. The uses of stone, not only limestone but other stones, whether they contain lime or not, are more or less mixed up between building and road-making, so that practically the uses are the same. It is, I think, somewhat an absurd position that when different stones used on the same road merely because of a difference in chemical analysis as to whether they contain lime or not, one should pay mineral duty and another not. Another absurdity is that a great deal of the granites used, especially in the Eastern counties, have to compete with foreign granites, which come in free of duty. But, putting that on one side, I pass to the objection that local authorities are really put to an expenditure for the benefit of Imperial taxation, which is quite unjustified by any difference which can be shown between one form of rock and another which are used in the making of our roads. For that reason I think it is somewhat disappointing that the acceptance of this new Clause has not been included among those indicated by the right hon. Gentleman. I think we might at any rate reasonably expect that this question of the exemption from taxation of granite from mineral duty should be agreed to, if not this year, at any rate, in the future.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEI am afraid there is no logical basis at all for this exemption. Take a quarry where you have stone setts and building stones quarried out of the same rock, and quarried by the same machinery. In that case it is very difficult to say that if that stone is used for road-making we should exempt it. But if granite is used for building stone you do not exempt. Perhaps there are many reasons why, if we exempt limestone, such exemption should be equally applicable to road stone. That is true, but I have no doubt if we had 2837 exempted road stone it would have been said, why not exempt something else? You have to draw the line somewhere, and I really cannot find my way to accept the Amendment.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINI think this is really a case in which my hon. Friend must go to a Division, and I hope the Division will be taken at once. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has not dealt with the point raised. What my hon. Friend complains of is that the duty as now levied differentiates between two stones used for the same purpose and in competition, one with the other, and further differentiates not only between the quarry of one owner and the quarry of another owner in this country, but also between English stone and foreign stone. It sets up, in fact, an impost against English stone without any differentiation against foreign stone. I think that is a reason for taking a Division, without any prolonged discussion.
§ Mr. WEDGWOODMay I ask why if this does make a difference in favour of one stone as against another, is it not a
§ perfectly simple way out of the difficulty to make your Mineral Rights Duty a true Mineral Rights Duty, and levy it upon all minerals, whether worked or not? If we had a straight tax upon mineral values, we would not have any of these difficulties. So long as it is merely a Royalty Tax, it does fall entirely upon those owners who develop their minerals, and consequently discourages development, and makes the stone more costly to the user. If the tax were levied upon the mineral values, whether used or not, it would not have the effect of discouraging production and increasing the price of stone, but would encourage production. If this does act as a discouragement to home industry—and an encouragement to foreign industry—and I think to a certain extent it would have that result—it could be easily put right by imposing your tax as a straight duty of a halfpenny in the pound on all minerals, whether they are worked or not.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 123; Noes, 175.
2839| Division No. 202.] | AYES. | [12.50 a.m. |
| Agg-Gardner, James Tynte | Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. | Nicholson, William G. (Petersfield) |
| Archer-Shee, Major M. | Fleming, Valentine | Parkes, Ebenezer |
| Ashley, W. W. | Fletcher, John Samuel | Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) |
| Baird, J. L. | Gastrell, Major W. Houghton | Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) |
| Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) | Gibbs, G. A. | Perkins, Walter F. |
| Balcarres, Lord | Glazebrook, Captain Philip K. | Peto, Basil Edward |
| Banbury, Sir Frederick George | Goldsmith, Frank | Pollock, Ernest Murray |
| Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) | Gouldlng, Edward Alfred | Pretyman, E. G. |
| Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) | Greene, W. R. | Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. |
| Barnston, H. | Gretton, John | Rawson, Col. R. H. |
| Bathurst, C. (Wilts, Wilton) | Guinness, Hon. W.E. (Bury S. Edmunds) | Remnant, James Farquharson |
| Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks | Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) | Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall) |
| Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) | Hall, Fred (Dulwich) | Rolleston, Sir John |
| Benn, Ion H. (Greenwich) | Hamersley, A. St. George | Ronaldshay, Earl of |
| Bennett-Goldney Francis | Harris, Henry Percy | Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby) |
| Bentinck, Lord H. Cavendish- | Henderson, Major H. (Berks, Abingdon) | Salter, Arthur Clavell |
| Beresford, Lord C. | Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) | Sanders, Robert A. |
| Bigland, Alfred | Hewins, William Albert Samuel | Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) |
| Boles, Lieut-Col. Dennis Fortescue | Hill, Sir Clement L. | Stanier, Beville |
| Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- | Hills, J. W. | Starkey, John R. |
| Boyton, J. | Hohler, G. F. | Steel-Maitland, A. D. |
| Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell | Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) | Stewart, Gershom |
| Bridgeman, William Clive | Horne, W. E. (Surrey, Guildford) | Swift, Rigby |
| Bull, Sir William James | Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) | Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) |
| Burgoyne, A. H. | Jessel, Captain H. M. | Talbot, Lord E. |
| Burn, Colonel C. R. | Joynson-Hicks, William | Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.) |
| Campion, W. R. | Kerry, Earl of | Thynne, Lord A. |
| Cassel, Felix | Knight, Captain E. A. | Tobin, Alfred Aspinall |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kyffin-Taylor, G. | Touche, George Alexander |
| Cautley, Henry Strother | Larmor, Sir J. | Walker, Col. William Hall |
| Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) | Lewisham, Viscount | Walrond, Hon. Lionel |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) | Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) | Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford) |
| Chambers, James | Mackinder, H. J. | Wheler, Granville C. H. |
| Clive, Captain Percy Archer | Macmaster, Donald | White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport) |
| Coates, Major Sir Edward Feetham | McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) | Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud |
| Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) | Malcolm, Ian | Wood, John (Stalybridge) |
| Dalrymple, Viscount | Mildmay, Francis Bingham | Worthington-Evans, L. |
| Denniss, E. R. B. | Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas | Wright, Henry Fitzherbert |
| Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott | Neville, Reginald J. N. | Younger, Sir George |
| Duke, Henry Edward | Newdegate, F. A. | |
| Eyres-Monsell, Bolton M. | Newman, John R. P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. |
| Falle, B. G. | Newton, Harry Kottingham | James Mason and Mr. George Faber. |
| NOES. | ||
| Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) | Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) | O'Malley, William |
| Acland, Francis Dyke | Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) | O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) |
| Armitage, Robert | Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) | O'Shaughnessy, P. J. |
| Baker, H. T. (Accrington) | Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry | O'Shee, James John |
| Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) | Hayden, John Patrick | O'Sullivan, Timothy |
| Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. George) | Hayward, Evan | Outhwaite, R. L. |
| Bentham, G. J. | Henderson, Arthur (Durham) | Parker, James (Halifax) |
| Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine | Henry, Sir Charles | Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) |
| Black, Arthur W. | Higham, John Sharp | Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) |
| Boland, John Pius | Hinds, John | Phillips, John (Longford, S.) |
| Booth, Frederick Handel | Hogge, James Myles | Pointer, Joseph |
| Bowerman, C. W. | Hudson, Walter | Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. |
| Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) | Hughes, Spencer Leigh | Power, Patrick Joseph |
| Brace, William | Illingworth, Percy H. | Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) |
| Brady, P. J. | Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus | Primrose, Hon. Neil James |
| Brocklehurst, W. B. | Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) | Pringle, William M. R. |
| Burke, E. Haviland- | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Raffan, Peter Wilson |
| Burns, Rt. Hon. John | Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) | Rea. Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) |
| Byles, Sir William Pollard | Jowett, Frederick William | Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) |
| Carr-Gomm, H. W. | Joyce, Michael | Reddy, Michael |
| Clancy, John Joseph | Kellaway, Frederick George | Redmond, John E. (Waterford) |
| Clough, William | Kennedy, Vincent Paul | Redmond, William (Clare) |
| Clynes, J. R. | Kilbride, Denis | Richardson, Albion (Peckham) |
| Collins, Godfrey P. (Greenock) | Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) | Richardson, Thomas (White[...]) |
| Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) | Lansbury, George | Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln) |
| Condon, Thomas Joseph | Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) | Roberts, G. H. (Norwich) |
| Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. | Lewis, John Herbert | Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside) |
| Cotton, William Francis | Lundon, Thomas | Roche, Augustine (Louth) |
| Crooks, William | Lyell, Charles Henry | Rowlands, James |
| Crumley, Patrick | Lynch, A. A. | Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland) |
| Cullinan, John | Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) | Samuel, Sir Stuart M. (Whitechapel) |
| Davies, E. William (Eifion) | Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. | Scanlan, Thomas |
| Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) | MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) | Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) |
| Dawes, J. A. | Macpherson, James Ian | Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. |
| Delany, William | MacVeagh, Jeremiah | Sheehy, David |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | McGhee, Richard | Shortt, E. |
| Devlin, Joseph | McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald | Simon, Sir John Allsebrook |
| Dillon, John | Markham, Sir Arthur Basil | Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) |
| Donelan, Captain A. | Marshall, Arthur Harold | Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) |
| Duffy, William J. | Mason, David M. (Coventry) | Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.) |
| Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) | Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G. | Tennant, Harold John |
| Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of | Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) | Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) |
| Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) | Molloy, M. | Thorne, William (West Ham) |
| Esmonde. Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) | Montagu, Hon. E. S. | Trevelyan, Charles Philips |
| Essex, Richard Walter | Mooney, J. J. | Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander |
| Farrell, James Patrick | Morrell, Philip | Wadsworth, J. |
| Ffrench, Peter | Morison, Hector | Wardle, George J. |
| Field, William | Muldoon, John | Webb, H. |
| Fitzgibbon, John | Munro, R. | Wedgwood, Josiah C. |
| Flavin, Michael Joseph | Murray. Captain Hon. Arthur C. | White, J. Dundas (Glas., Tradeston) |
| George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd | Nannetti, Joseph P. | White, Patrick (Meath, North) |
| Gill, A. H. | Needham, Christopher T. | Williams, J. (Glamorgan) |
| Glanville, H. J. | Nolan, Joseph | Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton) |
| Greig, Colonel J. W. | O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) | Young, W. (Perthshire, E.) |
| Gulland, John William | O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) | Yoxall, Sir James Henry |
| Hackett, J. | O'Doherty, Philip | |
| Hall, Frederick (Normanton) | O'Donnell, Thomas | |
| Hancock, J. G. | O'Dowd, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. |
| Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) | O'Grady, James | Geoffrey Howard and Captain Guest. |
| Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) | O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) |