HC Deb 02 August 1912 vol 41 cc2578-87

Any decision of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise upon any question of the value of licensed premises to be determined by them in connection with Excise Liquor Licence Duties shall be subject to the like appeal as that to which the determination by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue of the amount to be paid for compensation under Sub-section (2) of Section twenty of the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910, is subject under that Act, with the substitution as respects Scotland of the Judges of the Court of Session named for the purpose of hearing appeals under the Valuation of Land (Scotland) Acts, and as respects Ireland of the High Court of Justice of Ireland for the High Court, and the costs on any such appeal shall be in the discretion of that Court.


I beg to move, "That the proposed Clause be read a second time."

The effect of this Clause, if carried, would be to give an appeal in certain cases from the decisions of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise when they determine the annual licensing value. By Section 44 of the Finance Act of 1910 the Commissioners were empowered to determine the annual licensing value of which, of course, the tax is levied. When that Clause was in Committee of the House it was pointed out that it was not right when a tax was being levied that a Government Department should determine without appeal the value upon which the tax was to be raised. Obviously the effect might be that the value might be put too high, with the consequence that a higher tax would be levied. That point having been raised, the Committee determined to give in such cases the right of appeal to the High Court, and the same right which is given against the decisions of the Commissioners under the Licensing Act of 1904. That power of appeal was under Section 44 of the Act of 1910. That Section was a good deal debated, and especially after what is known as the Wiggles-worth case, in which the Section was found to have some very serious effects, and to work a great deal of injustice. As the effect of that decision, the Government last year introduced a Clause into the Revenue Act, 1911, Clause 8, by which it was provided that the annual licence value should be determined in a different way. In many cases it follows the Inhabited House Duty, and when that does not apply it follows the operation under Schedule A, and where neither of those apply it is fixed by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise. It is an extraordinary thing that although in that Section power was given to the Commissioners to fix the annual licence value as they thought right, no power of appeal was given against the decision in that Section; so that the strange effect was this, that whereas, under the Act of 1910 a right of appeal was given against the decision of the Commissioners, under the amending Section of last year the Commissioners have absolute power, and there is no appeal against their decision. That at all events is as I read the Statute. I submit that the right of appeal ought to be given against decisions under the Act of 1911. If an appeal was right in 1910 it is surely so in 1911, and I cannot conceive how the Government can defend the refusal of the right of appeal in one case when they conceded it in the other. Therefore on that ground alone I think this Amendment would be fully jusified.

I desire to add a few words of a more general character. I think the practice is growing, and we have all noticed it even in the last five or six years, of giving to Government Departments the right to determine, and to determine without redress, matters affecting the subject. More and more in the Statutes passed at the instance of this Government we find ourselves put into the hands of the Government Departments. In matters of administration, of course, it is clearly so, and in matters of taxation it is so too, and there especially I think the tendency is a very vicious one indeed. We all have to submit to taxation and to be taxed on the value of our property, but to give a Government official, who has an interest and might be encouraged to increase the annual value and so add to the amount of taxation, the right to fix the annual value upon which the tax is levied without any kind of redress or appeal, is, I think, the height of injustice. I do not wonder that, those who are affected by the particular tax upon licensed houses do complain of this provision. I think they have reason for complaint, and I cannot see any reason why the right of appeal which I am asking for should not be given. The Courts have heard a certain number of appeals under the old Section 44, and I do not think anybody will deny that their decisions have tended to justice. They have been extremely important; they have not been numerous because each appeal has been held to apply to a number of cases. They have been very important and have put right obvious injustices in several cases. I am quite sure I am right in asking that in all cases where the licensing value is fixed by the Commissioners, the right of appeal given by the Act of 1910 should be given. I am sure this is a strong case, and I press the Government to accept the Clause.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Rufus Isaacs)

The circumstances which are now mentioned arise out of a question raised with reference to the Finance Act of 1909–10. There has been no real complaint with regard to the way in which the Commissioners have decided these questions so far as I know. There is no real dispute. The matter that comes before them is entirely a question of fact; they deal with it as they are best able on the material before them, and in the same way as they have done ever since 1825. There really does not seem to me to be any reason to change a practice which has continued for so long, and which, as far as I can gather, has given rise to no dissatisfaction. If a question arises that the Commissioners of Excise and Customs are not properly administering the law or that they are acting in defiance of the law and not in accordance with the Statutes, those questions are all open at the present day either by certiorari or mandamus, and you do not require an appeal in such cases. The only effect of giving an appeal would be that in all these cases where the Commissioners have to decide upon the facts what is the annual value, if there is not a true rent stated, it would be an appeal upon the facts. I suppose that is what the hon. and learned Member means. Surely that could not be desirable. If the hon. and learned Member were able to show that the Commissioners of Excise had dealt unsatisfactorily with numbers of cases which had come before them I could better understand the point. The Commissioners are merely continuing a practice which has been in existence since 1825, and I really cannot see that there is any need to insert an appeal, certainly not on the facts as stated by the hon. and learned Member.


There is no doubt a good deal of truth in what the Attorney-General has said with regard to this having been the practice for a long period of years. There is a certain difference in Scotland, where we have Government assessors whose judgment in these matters can be appealed from. As a general rule the Somerset House people have accepted the decision in those cases, and have not tried to override it; but there are cases in which they have used their powers. It does not seem desirable that in these days, when we require to be protected against bureaucracy, there should not be an appeal in this as in other cases. There have been great complaints. When the section was introduced into the Revenue Act of 1911 I argued this point with the Attorney-General, who rather pooh-poohed the suggestion that a few words ought to be added giving an appeal, and I was so glad to get the Clause itself that for the moment I did not press the point. I have always thought that in this matter there ought to be an appeal. While as a general rule the Somerset House people are extremely fair in these matters, they are not infallible. They are animated by a natural desire to get as much revenue as possible, and in these days, when the imposition of Licence Duty is so monstrously extreme, it is much more necessary that safeguards should be introduced and the right of licence-holders to have an appeal in these matters is much more important. In former times it made very little difference whether an extra £10 or £15 was added to the rental value, because the scale was a low one, and there were considerable gaps between the steps in the scale; but it is very different now, and licence holders require to be protected against gross overvaluation. On the general principle that the subject ought to be protected by the law in matters of this kind, I think the proposed new Clause should be supported.

4.0 P.M.


I do not think the Attorney-General quite met the point of my hon. and learned Friend, who pointed out that there was an appeal in regard to compensation, and contended that there ought also to be an appeal in regard to annual licence value. I should agree with the Attorney-General in one respect, that it might be right to give an appeal in cases of this kind on questions of principle and not on questions merely of fact if the two could be clearly separated, but that very often cannot be done. As a matter of fact, when you come to the question of the annual value of licensed premises you have very difficult questions to solve as regards both principles and methods of valuation. There are few cases at the present moment in which the official valuation made in the first instance is of such great importance to the subject as it is in regard to the annual value of licensed premises. Why, then, should not an appeal be allowed? Apart from the general principle that these matters ought to be, dealt with by the Courts openly and not merely by official valuers, surely if you allow appeals in other cases connected with the Licensing Laws there ought to be an appeal in this, which is probably the most important case of all.


I think there are strong reasons why an appeal should be given. The first is that the duty involved now is much more considerable, and consequently the amount at stake is far greater than it used to be. In these circumstances it certainly seems not right that the final determination should rest with a Government Department. I cannot quite agree with the Attorney-General that it is a pure question of fact. Questions of fact and questions of principle are very often inextricably mixed up, and it would be almost impossible in many of these cases to deal with questions of fact apart from principles of law. While it may be very undesirable that there should be an appeal in every case where questions of mere fact involving no principle of law were concerned, I put it to the Attorney-General that it is eminently desirable that there should be some means of bringing before a Court cases involving principles which would govern a great many other cases. That is the spirit of the new Clause proposed by my hon. Friend, and I hope the Government will reconsider their decision.


It is rather audacious on my part to intervene in this battle of the lawyers, but there is a point which I think has not been sufficiently elaborated. In his Budget speech of 1909 the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he intended in the near future, "within a few months," to base the valuation on the annual licence value. Not only have a few months passed, but three years have elapsed and we have got very little, if at all, nearer to this new basis. Let me quote the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1909. The right hon. Gentleman said:— We have, therefore, come to the conclusion that it is essential, in order to ensure fair treatment between one publican and another, that there should be a valuation based upon principles on which publicans for the time being receive compensation, and therefore generally accepted by the trade as an equitable basis for appraising the value of their monopoly. This assessment, when it is complete, will be translated into terms of annual value, and the licence will be levied accordingly. There are some remarks which do not affect the point. Then the Chancellor goes on to say:— In that case [that is, if the valuation on the new basis is higher than the valuation on the old basis], we undertake, when the valuation is complete, to reconsider the whole scale in the light of the more accurate and scientific figures which will have been secured by the operation of this new assessment. This new valuation will, however, take some months to complete. Meanwhile we propose to levy our duties upon the basis of the valuation upon which the present duties are chargeable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 24th April, 1909, cols. 524–5, Vol. IV.] When the right hon. Gentleman made that speech it was evidently his intention, or the intention of the Government, to introduce an entirely new scheme of valuation. Let me point out that if that new scheme had been brought forward there would be an appeal, because the Finance Act of 1909, or rather of 1910, especially provides, as I understand, for an appeal upon the ascertainment of the annual licence value. Surely the trade is labouring under an injustice. It was held out that attached to this new scheme of valuation there would be a right of appeal. You have gone on for three years with the old valuation, the old valuation based upon annual value, and you give those concerned no appeal. Why you refuse to give the appeal now asked for, I really see no adequate reason for. Surely if you were willing to do justice in the other case, it is only tardy justice to do it now after three years. Although it is late in the day, for the fiat has gone forth, I suppose, when the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney-General said what he did, so long as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not said the final word, and has not dropped the knife upon this new Clause, I do hope, in the light of what I have said, that there may be some reason for consideration.


I am surprised at the interruption of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Stoke. If I did not know him I would have thought he wanted to get away for a holiday.


I was not interrupting the hon. Gentleman; I was really cheering him.


The hon. Member has his own peculiar way of cheering. I want to put it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should send for the Postmaster-General, because if the Postmaster-General was here he would appreciate the point of my hon. Friend. He was in charge of the Licensing Bill of 1908, and he laid very great stress upon this new valuation. He said: "the present basis will operate unjustly; it is not the proper basis." He always said: "Wait till the new valuation." Continually throughout the course of the discussion, which I remember as being a bearing upon this present Amendment, it was said that the new valuation provided an appeal. I quite agree it is a matter of very great difficulty to prepare this new valuation. The right hon. Gentleman cannot promise it at once, but why on earth should he refuse to give this very small boon of appeal which he can give immediately, and which will be given if the promises then held out by the Postmaster-General are carried out? The argument of the Attorney-General is that things have rubbed on very well since 1825. Would the right hon. Gentleman apply that to other matters in politics. Some may say the Upper House rubbed along very well since 1825. I am bound to say there is a difference since 1825. The power of bureaucracy has arisen, the spirit of Emson and Dudley has come to life again; there is reason why the subject should be protected which did not exist in 1825. But really it is a small thing that is asked for, and without any loss of dignity or surrender of principle it very easily might be given by the right hon. Gentleman.

Question put, "That the proposed Clause be read a second time."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 153; Noes, 214.

Division No. 193.] AYES. [3.36 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tynte Chambers, James Hamersley, Alfred St. George
Amery, L. C. M. S. Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Harris, Henry Percy
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Clive, Captain Percy Archer Harrison-Broadley, H. B.
Archer-Shee, Major M. Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.)
Ashley, W. W. Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Hewins, William Albert Samuel
Bagot, Lieut.-Colonel J. Dalrymple, Viscount Hickman, Colonel Thomas E.
Baird, John Lawrence Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Hill, Sir Clement L. (Shrewsbury)
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Denniss, E. R. B. Hill-Wood, Samuel
Baldwin, Stanley Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Hope, Harry (Bute)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Dixon, Charles Harvey Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield)
Barnston, Harry Duke, Henry Edward Houston, Robert Paterson
Barrie, H. T. Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Hunter, Sir Charles R. (Bath)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Faber, George D. (Clapham) Ingleby, Holcombe
Becket, Hon. Gervase Faber, Cant. W. V. (Hants, W.) Jardine, Ernest (Somerset, East)
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Falle, Bertram Godfray Jessel, Captain Herbert M.
Bennett-Goldney, Francis Fell, Arthur Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr
Bigland, Alfred Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Kerry, Earl of
Bird, Alfred Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement
Boles, Leiut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Kyffin-Taylor, G.
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Larmor, Sir J.
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) Gardner, Ernest Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle)
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Gastreit, Major W. Houghton Lewisham, Viscount
Bridgeman, William Clive Gibbs, George Abraham Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury)
Burn, Colonel C. R. Gilmour, Captain John Lonsdale, Sir John Brownlee
Campion, W. R. Goldsmith, Frank Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston)
Cassel, Felix Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (St. Geo.Han.S)
Castlereagh, Viscount Goulding, Edward Alfred MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh
Cator, John Grant, J. A. Macmaster, Donald
Cautley, Henry Strother Greene, Walter Raymond M'Neill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine'[...])
Cave, George Guinness, Hon. Rupert (Essex, S.E.) Magnus, Sir Philip
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Guinness, Hon.W.E. (Bury S.Edmunds) Malcolm, Ian
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Gwynne, R. S. (Sussex, Eastbourne) Mason, James F. (Windsor)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Haddock, George Bahr Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Rolleston, Sir John Valentia, Viscount
Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Ronaldshay, Earl of Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Newman, John R. P. Royds, Edmund Ward, Arnold (Herts, Watford)
Newton, Harry Kottingham Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid.)
Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Salter, Arthur Clavell Wheler, Granville C. H.
Paget, Almeric Hugh Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Parkes, Ebenezer Sanders, Robert Arthur Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington) Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells) Winterton, Earl
Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge) Spear, Sir John Ward Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton) Stanier, Beville Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Perkins, Walter Frank Stewart, Gershom Worthington-Evans, L.
Pole-Carew, Sir R. Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central) Yate, Col. C. E.
Pollock, Ernest Murray Talbot, Lord Edmund Yerburgh, Robert
Pretyman, Ernest George Terrell, George (Wilts, N.W.) Younger, Sir George
Pryce-Jones, Colonel E. Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Quilter, Sir W. E. C. Thynne, Lord Alexander TELLERS FOR THE AYES.-Mr. Peto and Mr. Hills.
Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Rees, Sir J. D. Touche, George Alexander
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Flavin, Michael Joseph MacVeagh, Jeremiah
Acland, Francis Dyke George, Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd McCallum, Sir John M.
Addison, Dr. Christopher Gill, Alfred Henry McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald
Ainsworth, John Stirling Gladstone, W. G. C. M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.)
Alden, Percy Glanville, Harold James Markham, Sir Arthur Basil
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marshall, Arthur Harold
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Greenwood, Glanville, G. (Peterborough) Mason, David M. (Coventry)
Armitage, Robert Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland) Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.
Arnold, Sydney Greig, Colonel James William Meagher, Michael
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Gulland, John William Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Hackett, John Molloy, Michael
Baker, Joseph Allen (Finsbury, E.) Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Molteno, Percy Alport
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Hancock, J. G. Mond, Sir Alfred
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale) Mooney, John J.
Barnes, George N. Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morrell, Philip
Benn, W. (T. H'mts., St. George) Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Morison, Hector
Bentham, George J. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West) Muldoon, John
Black, Arthur W. Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Munro, Robert
Boland, John Pius Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Murray, Capt. Hon. Arthur C.
Booth, Frederick Handel Hayden, John Patrick Nannetti, Joseph P.
Boyle, Daniel (Mayo, North) Helme, Sir Norval Watson Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster)
Brace, William Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nolan, Joseph
Brady, Patrick Joseph Henry, Sir Charles Nugent, Sir Walter Richard
Brocklehurst, William B. Higham, John Sharp O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)
Burke, E. Haviland- Hinds, John O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.)
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Hogge, James Myles O'Doherty, Philip
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Holmes, Daniel Turner O'Donnell, Thomas
Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Hope, John Deans (Haddington) O'Dowd, John
Chancellor, Henry George Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) O'Grady, James
Clancy, John Joseph Hudson, Walter O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.)
Clougn, William Hughes, Spencer Leigh O'Malley, William
Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Illingworth, Percy H. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, s.)
Condon, Thomas Joseph Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus O'Shaughnessy, P. J.
Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Jones, Rt.Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Sw'nsea) O'Shee, James John
Cotton, William Francis Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) O'Sullivan, Timothy
Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth) Outhwaite, R. L.
Crooks, William Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Palmer, Godfrey Mark
Crumley, Patrick Jones, W. S. Glyn- (Stepney) Parker, James Halifax
Cullinan, John Jowett, Frederick William Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek)
Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Joyce, Michael Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Davies, Timothy (Lincs, Louth) Keating, Matthew Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Dawes, James Arthur Kellaway, Frederick George Pointer, Joseph
De Forest, Baron Kelly, Edward Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H.
Delany, William Kennedy, Vincent Paul Power, Patrick Joseph
Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Kilbride, Denis Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central)
Devlin, Joseph King, Joseph (Somerset, North) Primrose, Hon. Neil James
Dickinson, W. H. Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Pringle, William M. R.
Dillon, John Lardner, James Carrige Rushe Raffan, Peter Wilson
Donelan, Captain A. Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Duffy, William J. Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld, Cockerm'th) Reddy, Michael
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Leach, Charles Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Edwards, John Hugh (Glamorgan, Mid) Lewis, John Herbert Redmond, William (Clare)
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Lundon, Thomas Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lyell, Charles Henry Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Lynch, A. A. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Essex, Richard Walter Macdonald, J. Ramsay (Leicester) Roberts, George H. (Norwich)
Falconer, James Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Farrell, James Patrick McGhee, Richard Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Ffrench, Peter Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Field, William MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) Roe, Sir Thomas
Fitzgibbon, John Macpherson, James Ian Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) Taylor, T. C. (Radcliffe) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
Scanlan, Thomas Tennant, Harold John White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton) Thomas, James Henry (Derby) Williams, John (Glamorgan)
Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Sheehy, David Thorne, William (West Ham) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Sherwell, Arthur James Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
Shortt, Edward Wadsworth, John Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Simon, Sir John Alisebrook Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe) Wardle, G. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. G. Howard and Captain Guest.
Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Sutherland, J. E. Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Division No. 194.] AYES. [4.10 p.m.
Agg-Gardner, James Tyntt Finlay, Rt. Hon. Sir Robert Newman, John R. P.
Aitken, Sir William Max Fisher, Rt. Hon. W. Hayes Newton, Harry Kottingham
Amery, L. C. M. S. Fleming, Valentine Paget, Almeric Hugh
Anson, Rt. Hon. Sir William R. Fletcher, John Samuel (Hampstead) Pease, Herbert (Pike (Darlington)
Ashley, Wilfrid W. Gardner, Ernest Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Brgot, Lieut.-Colonel J. Gastrell, Major W. H. Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Baird, John Lawrence Gibbs, George Abraham Perkins, Walter F.
Baker, Sir Randolf L. (Dorset, N.) Gilmour, Captain John Peto, Basil Edward
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Goldsmith, Frank Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Baring, Maj. Hon. Guy V. (Winchester) Gordon, John (Londonderry, South) Pollock, Ernest Murray
Barnston, H. Goulding, Edward Alfred Pretyman, E. G.
Barrie, H. T. Grant, J. A. Pryce-Jones, Col. E.
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Gretton, John Quilter, Sir William Eley C.
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Haddock, George Bahr Rawlinson, John Frederick Peel
Beckett, Hon. Gervase Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Rees, Sir J. D.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hamersley, Alfred St. George Rolleston, Sir John
Bennet-Goldney, Francis Harris, Henry Percy Ronaldshay, Earl of
Beresford, Lord Charles Harrison-Broadley, H. B. Royds, Edmund
Bigland, Alfred Herbert, Hon. A. (Somerset, S.) Rutherford, John (Lancs., Darwen)
Bird, Alfred Hewins, William Albert Samuel Rutherford, W. (Liverpool, W. Derby)
Boles, Lieut.-Col. Dennis Fortescue Hill, Sir Clement L. Salter, Arthur Slavell
Boscawen, Sir Arthur S. T. Griffith- Hills, J. W. Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) Hill-Wood, Samuel Sanders, Robert A.
Brassey, H. Leonard Campbell Hohler, G. F. Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Bridgeman, W. Clive Hope, Harry (Bute) Spear, Sir John Ward
Burdett-Coutts, W. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Stanier, Beville
Burn, Col. C. R. Houston, Robert Paterson Starkey, John Ralph
Campion, W. R. Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Stewart, Gershom
Cassel, Felix Ingleby, Holcombe Sykes, Mark (Hull, Central)
Castlereagh, Viscount Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) Talbot, Lord Edmund
Cator, John Jessel, Captain Herbert M. Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)
Cautley, Henry Strother Kerr-Smiley, Peter Kerr Thomson, W. Mitchell- (Down, N.)
Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor) Kerry, Earl of Thynne, Lord Alexander
Cecil, Lord R. (Herts, Hitchin) Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. A. (Worc'r.) Kyffin-Taylor, G. Touche, George Alexander
Chambers, J. Larmor, Sir J. Valentia, Viscount
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Law, Rt. Hon. A. Bonar (Bootle) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Clive, Captain Percy Archer Lawson, Hon. H. (T. H'mts, Mile End) Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Clyde, James Avon Lewisham, Viscount Wheler, Granville C. H.
Craig, Norman (Kent, Thanet) Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Craik, Sir Henry Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Willoughby, Major Hon. Claude
Cripps, Sir Charles Alfred Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, Ripon)
Dalrymple, Viscount MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Winterton, Earl
Dalziel, Davison (Brixton) Macmaster, Donald Wood, Hon. E. F. L. (Yorks, Ripon)
Denniss,E. R. B. McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Dixon, C. H. Magnus, Sir Philip Worthington-Evans, L. (Ripon)
Duke, Henry Edward Malcolm, Ian Yerburgh, Robert
Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Mason, James F. (Windsor) Younger, Sir George
Faber, Captain W. V. (Hants, W.) Middlemore, John Throgmorton
Falle, Bertram Godfray Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Cave and Mr. G. Faber.
Fell, Arthu Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton)
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Neville, Reginald J. N.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Farrell, James Patrick
Acland, Francis Dyke Chancellor, H. G. Ffrench, Peter
Addison, Dr. Christopher Clancy, John Joseph Field, William
Ainsworth, John Stirling Clough, William Fitzgibbon, John
Alden, Percy Collins, Stephen (Lambeth) Flavin, Michael Joseph
Allen, Arthur A. (Dumbarton) Condon, Thomas Joseph George Rt. Hon. D. Lloyd
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Gill, A. H.
Armitage, R. Cotton, William Francis Gladstone, W. G. C.
Arnold, Sydney Crawshay-Williams, Eliot Clanville, Harold James
Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Crooks, William Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Crumley, Patrick Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Cullinan, J. Greenwood, Hamar (Sunderland)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Dalziel, Rt. Hon. Sir J. H. (Kirkcaldy) Greig, Colonel, J. W.
Baring, Sir Godfrey (Barnstaple) Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth) Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward
Barnes, George N. Dawes, J. A. Gulland, John W.
Benn, W. W. (T. H'mts., St. George) De Forest, Baron Hackett, J.
Bentham, George J. Delany, William Hall, Frederick (Normanton)
Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Hancock, John George
Black, Arthur W. Dickinson, W. H. Harcourt, Rt. Hon. L. (Rossendale)
Boland, John Plus Dillon, John Harcourt, Robert C. (Montrose)
Booth, Frederick Handel Donelan, Captain A. Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)
Bracey, William Duffy, William J. Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds)
Brady, P. J. Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)
Brocklehurst, William B. Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N. E.)
Burke, E. Haviland- Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Hayden, John Patrick
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Esmonde, Sir T. (Wexford, N.) Hayward, Evan
Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N) Essex, Richard Walter Helme, Sir Norval Watson
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Falconer, J. Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Henry, Sir Charles S. Meagher, Michael Redmond, William (Clare)
Higham, John Sharp Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N. Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Hinds, John Molloy, M. Richardson, Thomas Whitehaven)
Hodge, John Molteno, Percy Alport Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Hogge, James Myles Mond, Sir Alfred Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Holmes, Daniel Turner Mooney, John J. Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Holt, Richard Durning Morgan, George Hay Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Hope, John Deans (Haddington) Morison, Hector Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Roe, Sir Thomas
Hudson, Walter Muldoon, John Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland
Illingworth, Percy H, Munro, Robert Samuel, J. (Stockton)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. Sir Rufus Nannetti, Joseph P. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridegton)
Jones, Rt. Hon.Sir D.Brynmor (Sw'nsea) Nicholson, Sir Charles N. (Doncaster) Seely, Rt. Hon. Col J. E. B.
Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil) Nolan, Joseph Sheehy, David
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Sherwell, Arthur James
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Shortt, Edward
Jowett, Frederick William O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Simon, Sir John Alisebrook
Joyce, Michael O'Doherty, Philip Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Keating, M. O'Donnell, Thomas Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Kellaway, Frederick George O'Dowd, John Snowden, P.
Kelly, Edward O'Grady, James Sutherland, John E.
Kennedy, Vincent Paul O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Kilbride, Denis O'Malley, William Tennant, Harold John
King, J. (Somerset, N.) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Thomas, James Henry (Derby)
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe O'Shee, James John Thorne, William (West Ham)
Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, West) O'Sullivan, Timothy Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Leach, Charles Outhwaite, R. L. Wadsworth, J.
Lewis, John Herbert Palmer, Godfrey Mark Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Lundon, T. Parker, James (Halifax) Wardle, G. J.
Lynch, A. A. Pearce, Robert (Staffs, Leek) Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burkhs) Phillips, John (Longford, S.) White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)
McGhee, Richard Pointer, Joseph White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Ponsonby, Arthur A. W. H. Whittaker, Rt. Hon. Sir Thomas P.
MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) Power, Patrick Joseph Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Macpherson, James Ian Price, C. E. (Edinburgh, Central) Williamson, Sir Archibald
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Primrose, Hon. Neil James Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
McCallum, Sir John M. Pringle, William M. R. Wood, Rt. Hon. T. McKinnon (Glas.)
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Raffan, Peter Wilson Young, William (Perth, East)
M'Laren, Hon. H. D. (Leics.) Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Markham, Sir Arthur Basil Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Marshall, Arthur Harold Reddy, M. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. G. Howard and Captain Guest.
Mason, David M. (Coventry) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Masterman, Rt. Hon. C. F. G.