HC Deb 02 August 1912 vol 41 cc2517-9

Considered in Committee.

[Mr. WHITLEY in the Chair.]

Mr. T. M. HEALY

In consequence of the statement of the Financial Secretary to the Treasury yesterday, I ask leave to move an Amendment in the Preamble. The Preamble states:— We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled, towards making good the Supply which we have cheerfully granted to Your Majesty. I wish to insert after the word "cheerfully" the words "lent and," so that it may read, "lent and granted to Your Majesty." I wish especially to ask the opinion of the Law Officers on this. As I understand the view of the Government is that under this Bill we are no longer making Grants to the King, and that the Statute which says we have granted money to the King, is waste paper, and that in fact what does control the Treasury, the Sovereign, and all the Estates of the Realm is some piece of dirty paper in the portfolio of the Secretary to the Treasury, which he says apart altogether from the Statute overrule the Statutes of this House, control the Treasury, control the King, and that what we are doing here now in saying we have cheerfully granted these sums to His Majesty, is a pure and absolute farce.

Mr. BOOTH

On a point of Order. I wish to ask whether it is in order to take an Amendment to the Preamble of this Bill now, or whether the Preamble should be taken after the Clauses?

The CHAIRMAN

There really is no Preamble and no separate question is put in regard to the Preamble. I find the hon. Member himself who was then the hon. Member for North Louth raised this point on the 21st March, 1900, and the reply given to him then I am obliged to give him now:— The enacting words of a Money Bill are different from other Bills. Any alteration in this form would have to be considered by the House. The Committee on a particular Bill has no authority to revise it, and no question is put to the Committee thereon.

Mr. T. M. HEALY

Was that not before the old Motion? There was an old formula which used to be put at the commencement of every Bill the moment the Chair was taken. That formula has been en-entirely abolished, and therefore I would suggest if this be the enacting part, and if the Treasury will not obey the enactment and treat these Grants as loans that is my point.

The CHAIRMAN

The question is that Clause 1—

Mr. JAMES HOPE

I wish to know whether you have effectively put the question "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill." I could not hear what was your ruling, and I wish to move an Amendment to that question.

The CHAIRMAN

I was in process of putting the question that Clause 1 stand part when the hon. Member for North-East Cork rose.

Mr. JAMES HOPE

I wish to know whether it is necessary to take power to raise money at so high a rate of interest as 5 per cent. Surely, in these times His Majesty's credit is such that we can raise money at a less interest than that.

The CHAIRMAN

I will put this matter in order. The question before the Committee now is, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."