HC Deb 01 August 1912 vol 41 cc2488-93

Considered in Committee.

CLAUSE 1.—(1) The rate of contribution under the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898 (hereinafter referred to as "the principal Act"), shall be fixed, in the case of a man, at three pounds twelve shillings and in the case of a woman at two pounds eight shillings a year, and accordingly in paragraph (b) of Sub-section (2) of Section one of the principal Act the words "three pounds twelve shillings" and "two pounds eight shillings" shall be substituted respectively for the words "three pounds" and "two-pounds," and in the same Sub-section the words "or at such increased rate as may for the time being be fixed by the Treasury in accordance with this Act," and Sub-sections (3) and (4) (which authorise the Treasury to vary the rate of contribution) shall be repealed.

(2) Paragraph (d) of Sub-section (2) of Section one and paragraph (a) of Subsection (2) of Section five of the principal Act (which relate to the amount of superannuation allowances) shall, in their application to persons who attained the age of sixty-five years on or after the first day of April nineteen hundred and twelve, or who may hereafter attain that age, have effect, and be deemed as from the said date to have had effect, as if for the words "ten shillings" there were substituted the words "one pound."

(3) Sub-section (1) of Section two of the principal Act (which relates to the amount of disablement allowances) shall, in its application to persons who have applied for a disablement allowance on or after the first day of April nineteen hundred and twelve, or who may hereafter apply for such an allowance, have effect and be deemed as from the said date to have had effect as if for the words "one pound" there were substituted the words "one pound ten shillings" and for the words "thirteen shillings and fourpence" there were substituted the words" one pound."


I beg to move, in Sub-section (2), after the word "years" ["who attained the age of sixty-five years"], to insert the words "or whose certificate expired."

This Bill proposes to extend the provisions of the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898, which is the parent Act. Under that Act teachers become entitled to superannuation allowance at one of two dates—either on attaining the age of sixty-five years, or if, as often happens in the case of teachers of pretty good standing, their certificate is extended, when their extended certificate expires. With regard to these two main dates, the present Bill proposes to increase the allowance payable by 10s., but unfortunately not in the case of both the classes of people affected by the main Act, which says that on the teacher attaining the age of sixty-five years, or any later date at which his certificate expires, he shall become entitled to the allowance. On the other hand the Bill says that the provisions of the principal Act "shall, in their application to persons who attained the age of sixty-five years on or after the first day of April, nineteen hundred and twelve, or who may hereafter attain that age, have effect, and be deemed as from the said date to have had effect, as if for the words 'ten shillings' there were substituted the words 'one pound.'" It only applies, therefore, as I have said, to one of the classes of persons dealt with by the main section. Let us see how it will work. I have in mind one very practical instance, and I am told there are many more in large areas in the North, where this kind of thing happens. Suppose a teacher has attained the age of sixty-five years, say in March or rather earlier in this year. This Bill is to come into force on 1st April, and consequently if you are only going to take one class of people, namely, those who attain the age of sixty-five on or after 1st April you will exclude from the benefits of the Bill another large class of teachers. But if you take, as you ought to do—this being an Amending Bill—both classes, then teachers who attained the age of sixty-five before 1st April, and have had their certificates extended, as is the case I know in one instance in Salford, would be entitled to their pensions. It is not a question of making this Bill apply to a whole class of new persons, and it is not fair to give the benefit to one class only. It is a matter which is causing a good deal of unrest and dissatisfaction in the North, but if my Amendment is carried, I think equal justice would be done to all parties.

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of EDUCATION (Mr. J. A. Pease)

I am informed that this Bill applies to exactly the same class as the Bill of 1898. I am quite aware that the hon. Gentleman thinks it is a very hard case in regard to some of these teachers. I thoroughly admit it, and I admitted it on the Second Reading of the Bill. We are not sure, however, as to the extent to which the money which is available for the increased pensions will go, and this is one of the objects which will be taken into review by the Committee which I have set up to advise me in this matter. I would therefore press the hon. Gentleman not to put the House to the trouble of a Division on the matter, as it will be taken into review as soon as we have expert actuarial evidence in regard to the amount of money which we have available for many of these hard cases, of which this is only one.


Can the right hon. Gentleman explain what is the position of teachers who have already been superannuated under the principal Act; whether they will reap the benefit of this?


All we are doing in this Bill is to double the benefits in regard to pensions, in so far as the State contributions are concerned. Instead of being 10s. for each year of recorded service, in future it will be £1 for each year of recorded service. With regard to the disablement allowance, the amount hitherto received from the contributions of the State and the teachers will be increased. There are several hard cases to which the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Barlow) has alluded, and when the Committee has ascertained, by actuarial researches, how much money is available to meet these cases, I can say how the balance will be expended. It is intended in the next Session of Parliament to bring in a Bill on the recommendations of that Committee.


The right hon. Gentleman commenced his observations by saying that this Bill is to oblige exactly the same class of persons as the original Act. He said he was not able to accept the Amendment, which would have applied to both classes. He did not express himself with that lucidity which he generally displays in pointing out that this Bill would include both these classes. I am the last person in the House in any way to prevent these very deserving persons from getting these pensions; it is extremely desirable that any class whatever of these teachers should get an increased

pension as soon as possible, but there are two very hard cases which arise at once, and which will create an immense amount of dissatisfaction. One is as to the class of persons referred to in the Amendment now before the Committee. There are two dates at which an elementary school teacher may become entitled to a pension: one at sixty-five and the other on the expiry of the extended certificate. That is made perfectly clear in the original Act. The Bill now before us is to give an increased pension to those who attain the age of sixty-five, and not to give any increased pension whatever to those who become entitled to a pension on the expiry of the extended certificate. Another very hard case—referred to by the Noble Lord—is that of those people who have become entitled to pensions in the past—some probably the day before this Bill comes into operation—they are only to receive the old rate of pension. I certainly think, if the Government had intended seriously, justly, and properly to deal with this very important subject, whilst they were increasing the pensions to one class, they ought not to have left two other equally deserving classes out of the pension and on the old scale.

Question put, "that those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 22; Noes, 133.

Division No. 188.] AYES. [4.30 a.m.
Ashley, W. W. Henderson, Major H. (Abingdon) Sanders, Robert Arthur
Baird, John Lawrence Hope, Harry (Bute) Spear, Sir John Ward
Balcarres, Lord Kyffin-Taylor, G. Talbot, Lord Edmund
Bennett-Goldney, Francis McNeill, Ronald (Kent, St. Augustine's) Touche, George Alexander
Bridgeman, W. Clive Malcolm, Ian
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) Pollock, Ernest Murray
Eyres-Monsell, B. M. Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs) TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.
Gordon, John (Londonderry, S.) Royds, Edmund Montague Barlow and Mr. Hills.
Helmsley, Viscount Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Ainsworth, John Stirling Cornwall, Sir Edwin A. Hackett, John
Allen, Rt. Hon. Charles P. (Stroud) Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth) Hall, Frederick (Yorks, Normanton)
Arnold, Sydney Crooks, William Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose)
Baker, Harold T. (Accrington) Crumley, Patrick Harmsworth, Cecil (Luton, Beds.)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Cullinan, John Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, West)
Barnes, George N. Dawes, James Arthur Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) Denman, Hon. Richard Douglas Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry
Bentham, George Jackson Donelan, Captain A, Hayden, John Patrick
Boland, James Pius Duffy, William J. Hayward, Evan
Booth, Frederick Handel Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Hazleton, Richard (Galway, N.)
Bowerman, Charles W. Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Henderson, Arthur (Durham)
Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) Falconer, James Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor (Mon., S.>
Brace, William Farrell, James Patrick Higham, John Sharp
Brady, Patrick Joseph Fenwick, Rt. Hon. Charles Hogge, James Myles
Brunner, John F. L. Ffrench, Peter Howard, Hon. Geoffrey
Burke, E. Haviland- Field, William Hudson, Walter
Burns, Rt. Hon. John Fitzgibbon, John Jones, Edgar (Merthyr Tydvil)
Buxton, Rt. Hon. S. C. (Poplar) Flavin, Michael Joseph Jones, Henry Haydn (Merioneth)
Carr-Gomm, H. W. Gill, Alfred Henry Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)
Clancy, John Joseph Gladstone, W. G. C. Jowett, Frederick William
Clough, William Greig, Colonel J. W. Joyce, Michael
Condon, Thomas Joseph Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Keating, Matthew
Kelly, Edward O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Seely, Col. Rt. Hon. J. E. B.
Kilbride, Denis O'Doherty, Philip Sheehy, David
King, Joseph O'Donnell, Thomas Shortt, Edward
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) O'Dowd, John Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Lardner, James Carrige Rushe O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim)
Lewis, John Herbert O'Malley, William Sutherland, John E.
Lundon, Thomas O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, s.) Sutton, John E.
Lynch, Arthur Alfred O'Sullivan, Timothy Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Macnamara, Rt. Hon. Dr. T. J. Outhwaite, R. L. Tennant, Harold John
MacNeill, John G. S. (Donegal, South) Parker, James (Halifax) Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Macpherson, James Ian Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Verney, Sir Harry
MacVeagh, Jeremiah Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Wadsworth, John
M'Ghee, Richard Power, Patrick Joseph Webb, H.
McKenna, Rt. Hon. Reginald Pringle, William M. R. White, J. Dundas (Glasgow, Tradeston)>
M'Laren, Hon. F. W. S. (Lines., Spalding) Raffan, Peter Wilson White, Sir Luke (Yorks, E.R.)
Marshall, Arthur Harold Raphael, Sir Herbert H. White, Patrick (Meath, North)
Meagher, Michael Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough) Wilson, Rt. Hon. J. W. (Worcs., N.)
Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Reddy, Michael Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Morison, Hector Redmond, John E. (Waterford) Yoxall, Sir James Henry
Munro, Robert Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Murray, Captain Hon. Arthur C. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Nannetti, Joseph P. Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr.
Nolan, Joseph Scanlan, Thomas Illingworth and Mr. Gulland.
O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Scott, A. MacCallum (Glas., Bridgeton)

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, without Amendment; read the third time, and passed.