HC Deb 24 November 1911 vol 31 cc1697-703
Mr. BONAR LAW

May I, simply to keep myself in order, move "That the Committee do now adjourn," so that I may call attention to a matter in which I am sure hon. Members are interested. It arises out of the answer to a question which was put to the President of the Board of Trade in the House yesterday in regard to matters which are to come before this Committee in which we are engaged. I am sure that everyone will recognise that we all wish to deal with this Bill—the principle having been admitted—in the best way we can. I am sure that everyone feels, as I do, that the matters with which this part of the Bill deals have not been fully discussed in the country, and that, therefore, the views of those concerned have not been brought to the attention of Members of the House of Commons in the way they would have been had the deputations to the Government been treated in the same way as the deputations with respect to Part 1. Under these circumstances, I think every member of the Committee must feel that we are not in a position to realise now what are the objections to the Bill which are entertained by people outside to the extent that we ought to be able to realise them. In my judgment we should be in that position if we had concise summaries of the interviews which took place with the deputations when they met the President of the Board of Trade and placed their objections before him and of the answers he made to the deputations. We have an analogy for this in the case of the Insurance Bill in relation to Part 1. There the Chancellor of the Exchequer did publish a summary of the interviews on those questions which were brought before him. During the past few months everybody's mind was full of the Insurance Bill, and hon. Members were receiving communications from every kind of interest with respect to the proposals in Part I. We were pretty well informed what the objections were to the proposals in Part 1, but in the case of the unemployment clauses in Part 2 that is not the case. We are not informed how the people who will be affected regard these proposals, and what the objections are. I wish to make an appeal, which, I trust the President of the Board of Trade will consider immediately. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to publish with the least possible delay a summary of the deputations received and the answers he gave to the representations made by the deputations.

The PRESIDENT of the BOARD of TRADE (Mr. Buxton)

I had notice that this question was going to be raised, and I do not complain of the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman. The point is this: I was asked yesterday how far I could lay before hon. Members a report of the various deputations the Board of Trade had received with reference to the matters dealt with in Part II. of the Bill, and my answer was that I thought that in every case, or at all events in a large majority of the cases, the interviews were private. I think I stated that they were private at the request of the members of the deputations, on the ground that in these matters you can really, as I said in the House, talk over matters more easily if you have a private deputation than if you have a public interview, with the speeches on the one hand and on the other reported. That being so, I find it difficult to know how far information could be given to the Committee as to the deputations. I have nothing to conceal in the matter, and I would be glad to give any information and assistance to the Committee I could. I will see how far from the memorials sent in they could be in a few sentences summarised, and how far also the replies given could be summarised; but I cannot off-hand commit myself to saying how far that could be done. I do not know how far we have kept a record of these interviews, which were private interviews, nor do I really know what would be the real value or assistance to the Committee if the right hon. Gentleman's request were complied with. I can give this statement: The substantial points made on the one hand by the representatives of the employers, and on the other hand by the representatives of the workmen, have already been practically put down on the Paper in the form of Amendments, and I am very glad that they should have been. In addition to that a very considerable number of the points put to me by both sides have been met. I hope, at all events, that I have met them by the Amendments I have put down after consideration of the various representations made to me. I will consider what I can do in the direction the right hon. Gentleman suggests, but I venture to ask the Committee not in consequence of this to delay their proceedings. I do not think that the proceedings of the Committee should be delayed for that reason, nor do I really think that the information I could give them would be of much advantage to their proceedings, on the ground that in regard to these matters we have endeavoured to meet by the Government Amendments the objections which were made. We hope to be able to deal sympathetically with the Amendments of which notice has been given on both sides. Under these circumstances I think every point as it arises will be fully brought before the Committee for consideration.

Mr. HOARE

Perhaps I may be allowed to say one word without in any way delaying the procedure of the Committee. It seems to me that the President of the Board of Trade does not quite realise our position. We have here the Insurance Bill in two Parts. We have a Report both by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Trade that all the information will be placed at the disposal of all parties in the House of Commons. In reference to the first Part of the Bill, the Chancellor of the Exchequer met us by publishing a White Paper giving a report of the views put before him by the deputations he had received with reference to the sickness part of the Bill, and what I fail entirely to understand is why, if a report was published with reference to the first Part of the Bill, a report should not also be published with reference to the second Part. It seems to me that the case is even stronger with reference to the second Part of the Bill. We have not had that public discussion in the country with reference to the unemployment part of the Bill which we have had with reference to Part 1. The President of the Board of Trade has just said that the material points have, in his opinion, already been brought out—that is to say, the points that were raised by the various deputations—and that he himself has met certain of them by Government Amendments. With all due respect, I cannot agree with that at all. There seem to me to be many details both for and against the Amendments he has put on the paper which do necessitate the publication of the very important interviews which took place with the deputations he received. Owing to the courtesy of the President of the Board of Trade, I received yesterday a list of the deputations that have been received by the Board. I will not take up the time of the Committee by going through the whole list. It is enough to say that no less than sixteen important deputations have been received at the Board of Trade. I find that they represent a whole variety of interests, not only employers but workmen as well, and not only members of one party, but members of several parties. I find, for instance, that they begin with the Shipbuilding Employers Federation, and end with the Social Democratic Party. I think the Committee will thus realise the catholicity of the interests that have been represented before the Board of Trade. It shows the very widespread interest which is felt in this particular Part of the Bill, and it therefore strengthens our case when we ask that all the available information should be generously placed at the disposal of this Committee.

Mr. W. PEEL

The President of the Board of Trade told us that he had considered the representations that were put before him, and that he had introduced amendments to meet the objections. That is all very well; but, of course, it is very important also to know, first of all, at whose suggestions and from what parties these different ideas came. After all, you cannot in a Bill of this kind consider all these matters purely from the point of view of abstract right and reason. You have to know what are the forces behind, what interests are involved, and the number of people bringing forward different suggestions. You have to consider also proposals from the point of view of the different deputations, and how many they represent, in order to be able to criticise their proposals in the light of the special interests they are sent to represent. I think it is almost a pity, if I may say so, that the precedent of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not followed, because I should have thought that these matters could be discussed quite openly and a report published, as was done by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to Part I. I do not see that we gain very much by private interviews in these matters. We ought to know who put forward the separate points.

Mr. BUXTON

I think there is some confusion in this matter. I had not seen this White Paper before, but I have it now in my hand. I find that it contains reports of thirteen deputations, but I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other day that he had received considerably over a hundred deputations. Those referred to in the White Paper were obviously public deputations at the request of the persons concerned in them. Therefore, they were no doubt quite rightly published, but I would like to repeat that none of the deputations I have received were public deputations of that kind. Certainly there was a very large number of cases. I distinctly remember, in which those who came to us desired that the deputation should be regarded as private for the reasons I have already given.

Mr. PEEL

Were the thirteen the most important?

Mr. BUXTON

No, they were public deputations it was not a question as to whether they were important or not. I have no desire to keep anything back, and if the Committee will allow me to look into the point, I will see what I can do in reference to it. They will certainly have the information as to what these deputations were, and I will let them have every information which I feel I can furnish.

Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS

I do not think there has been any confusion. What we want is what the Chancellor has already done with regard to Part I. of the Bill. It is quite true that only thirteen out of 100 deputations were published, but those are the most important. Besides, the Chancellor has done much more; he has published the correspondence, I think in two White Papers, on the questions that have been submitted to him, and as to points of difficulty on the construction of the Bill, and the replies that have been given by the Treasury, with a lot of information about the German schemes, all of which I have read through. But, with regard to unemployment, no assistance has been given from the Board of Trade. The President says that the suggestions that have been made have been met by Amendments. The business of this Committee is to see whether those Amendments do really meet the grievances put forward. It is not enough for the President to say that he has met them. It is up to the Committee to say that they are met. The Committee therefore should be put in possession, as far as possible, of the information which the President himself has obtained from these deputations. The President has said that the information was not of much value. We are the judges as to whether that is so. It may not be of much value to him, because he may know the subject so thoroughly, but we cannot possibly know it so well, as we have not the same means of information that he has. Certainly, if the best work is to be got out of this Committee, all information possible ought to be given to it. If the President looks at the list which he gave in his answer yesterday, he will see that industrial insurance companies, small employers, unions, and all these various bodies have made some sort of suggestions. We are entitled to know what they are, and where the shoe pinches. We cannot possibly know, unless we correspond with all these various people and get the information, unless the President himself publishes it. I would ask that he should publish it at once. There is no use in getting it in four or five days or a week's time, when we are three-quarter's through the business. At the pace at which we are going now, we shall have finished this part of the Bill in a week or two. What we want is, to get the information when it would be useful.

Mr. BONAR LAW

I am sure that the President sees the reasonableness of the suggestion made. The whole point is this. I suppose I am in the same position as other members of the Committee. I have no means of knowing what are the objections to this Bill except through my private correspondence. What I want is the point of the objections that have been put before the Board of Trade, so that we may judge whether the Amendments put down do fairly and properly meet those objections. All I ask the President to say in supplement of what he has already said is that he will at once, to-day, publish what he can in the way of giving us further information, and that he will supplement that when the Board of Trade has more time to-morrow in the way of giving us the means of properly considering this Bill, which is of vast importance, and which no single member of the Committee, except those connected with the Board of Trade, have the means of properly considering.

Mr. BUXTON

I see what is in the minds of hon. Members, and I will see what I can do to meet them. Subject, of course, to the fact that these deputations were of a private character, and were so at the request of those who came to see us, I will endeavour to do what I can. I can assure the Committee that there is no desire to keep anything back. How far I shall be able to meet the actual proposals made is another matter, but I shall consider the matter carefully.

Mr. BONAR LAW

Will you send out anything to-day?

Mr. BUXTON

I cannot say; I will do what I can.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.