§ Sir CLEMENT KINLOCH - COOKEasked the President of the Local Government Board whether he could state the 1655 amount by which the expenditure on Poor Law relief in England and Wales had been reduced annually since the coming into operation of the Old Age Pensions Act?
§ Mr. BURNSThe expenditure on out-relief has decreased in each year since the Old Age Pensions Act came into operation, but there has not been a decrease in the total expenditure on relief of the poor up to 31st March, 1911. The disqualification for an old age pension due to the past receipt of poor relief was only removed on 1st January last. I will send the hon. Member a note of the figures.
§ Mr. HARRY LAWSONIs what the right hon. Gentleman said true of London?
§ Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKEOn what ground does the right hon. Gentleman anticipate a diminution in the amount of relief?
§ Mr. BURNSWe had about 150,000 poor people on the public funds about twelve months ago, and it is reasonable to assume that a year after the removal of the pauper disqualification there will be a substantial diminution.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that John Murray, of Shanagolden, in the county of Limerick, applied to the Askeaton pension committee for an old age pension, which was granted to him last July, and that his proof of age was the statements of two men in the locality, over eighty years of age, that he was over seventy years of age, but, notwithstanding, the pension officer and the Local Government Board rejected his case on the ground of no evidence of age; and whether, as this man's case is a deserving one, he having lost the use of a leg, walks on crutches, is a tailor by trade, and depends on the neighbours for his support, and from his appearance alone is over seventy years of age, he will take steps to see that he gets the pension?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe statements referred to were insufficient evidence to satisfy the Local Government Board that John Murray had attained the age of seventy years. The Board having already determined the claim have no further power in the matter.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYIf Murray's statement were embodied in a statutory declaration, would that have any effect?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNo, Sir; a statutory declaration would not necessarily have any further effect than the statement of the applicant.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYDoes not the fact of the man's appearance appear to show that he is over seventy years of age, and should not that have some consideration in his claim?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe fact of his alleged appearance would not be any more effective because it is found in a statutory declaration.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that the Askeaton pension committee granted a pension of 5s. a week to Kate Dalton, of Ballylin, Shanagolden, in the county of Limerick, on her producing a statement from John M'Donnell, a retired relieving officer of the district, who is over seventy years of age, that she was over seventy years of age, and statements from two old residents in the district to the same effect, against which decision the pension officer appealed, and the Local Government Board upheld his decision on the ground of no evidence of age; whether he is aware that her statement was that she was the daughter of John Dalton and Margaret Boyle; that there were only two children in the family; and that in the baptismal certificate she is described as Winifred, whereas there was no Winifred, but Kate; and whether, under these circumstances, her age in the baptismal certificate under the name of Winifred being seventy years, she will get the benefit of the doubt, having regard to the statements of age made on her behalf?
§ Mr. BIRRELLStatements of belief were received from the three persons indicated in the first portion of the question. Kate Dalton appears to have stated that there were three children in her parents' family, a brother James, a sister Mary, and herself. It was also asserted that Mary and Kate were born within a year of each other, but no certificate of Mary's baptism seems to have been found. No evidence has been produced to show that Kate was the child Winifred baptised in 1839. In these circumstances the Board disallowed the claim, on the ground that they were not satisfied that Kate Dalton had attained the statutory age.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Mrs. Johanna Langan, of Robertstown, Borrigone, in the county of Limerick, on two occasions applied for an old age pension and on each occasion the Askeaton pension committee gave her 5s. a week, to which the pension officer appealed on the ground of no evidence of age, although she had a statement from the local dispensary doctor that she was a servant in his father's house, and that she was over seventy years, also a statement from an old and respectable man in the district to the same effect, but notwithstanding this the Local Government Board confirmed the pension officer's decision; and whether, as this woman has no other proof of age, he will say whether at any time she can get a pension?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe statements referred to were insufficient to satisfy the Local Government Board that Johanna Langan had attained the statutory age. The onus of proof rests upon a claimant, and unless satisfactory evidence of age is forthcoming no authority exists to award a pension.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary if he can say whether the pension officer had the right to refuse to investigate the case of James Sullivan, of Askeaton, county Limerick, on the last occasion he made application for an old age pension, having regard to the fact that the local pension committee granted him 5s. a week on his producing his baptismal certificate that he was seventy-three years of age; and whether the fact of his being three years in America deprives him of the pension, he having gone there with the view to getting from his children there some means for his support, as it was on the ground of having no domicile in the United Kingdom that the Local Government Board on former occasions confirmed the pension officer's appeal?
§ Mr. BIRRELLAs I have already informed the hon. Member, this case has not come before the Local Government Board on appeal.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYWill the right hon. Gentleman make an inquiry into the facts, because I know for a fact that this case did not come before the Local Government Board?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThe Local Government Board inform me that it has not come 1658 before them. I will ask them Again for verification.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYWould the fact that the man went to America for three years—if he went for support from his family—affect the matter?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThat is a grievance that has been remedied by legislation.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary whether he is aware that Mrs. Margaret Walsh, of Ardineer, Foynes, county Limerick, was granted an old age pension of 5s. a week by the Askeaton pension committee on producing statements from old residents in the district that she was seventy years of age, also on producing her marriage certificate and a certificate from Dr. O'Brien, of Askeaton, that her eldest son was in February last forty-eight years and three months of age, but, notwithstanding this, the Local Government Board, on the appeal of the pension officer, refused the pension on the ground of no evidence of age; whether he can say, as this woman can produce no further proof of age, if she will be debarred from getting the pension; and whether the pension officer has the power to refuse to investigate her case?
§ Mr. BIRRELLMrs. Walsh did not furnish a marriage certificate, and the statements of the old residents and the statement that she had a son over forty-eight years old, even if established as correct, were not sufficient in the opinion of the Local Government Board to justify them in holding that she had yet attained the age of seventy years. The onus of proof rests on the claimant, and until satisfactory evidence of age is produced she is not entitled to any pension. The Board have no power with regard to the duties of pension officers.
§ Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSYMay I take it that in cases like this that these applicants have any chance of getting their pensions at all?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNobody has any chance of getting a pension unless he can establish to the satisfaction of some reasonable persons that they comply with the conditions.
§ Mr. FLAVINWhat does the right hon. Gentleman consider satisfactory evidence?
§ Mr. BIRRELLThat depends upon who gives it.
§ Mr. FLAVINWould not the right hon. Gentleman take the sworn declaration of those persons in the district who have knowledge of those people?
§ Mr. BIRRELLNot without cross-examination of their means of knowledge.
§ Mr. FLAVINWould the right hon. Gentleman consider the advisability of having some inspector going round the country and making personal investigation into these matters?
§ Mr. BIRRELLWe do know a great deal from personal inspection and investigation.