§ Mr. HOBHOUSEI desire, Mr. Speaker, to get your ruling on a point which occurred in the Debate of Friday last. I am not going to raise this point on a particular Bill, but I want to get your ruling on a general question which is of importance to the Department with which I am connected. You on Friday last ruled that in the case of a Bill which in the previous Session has been blocked on the Motion for Second Reading, but no exception at that time had been taken on the ground that its contents infringed the Prerogative of the Crown to recommend a charge on the public, this House was precluded from subsequently taking exception to it on that ground. What I wish to ask is this, what is the proper time in the proceeding of this House at which such exception should be taken by the Department? Is it on the first occasion the Order is read? Also, in view of the Parliamentary practice which is laid down by Sir Erskine May, at page 559, in the eleventh edition of his hook, is it within the competence of the Chair to put a Motion for the Second Reading of a Bill which deals mainly or wholly with the creation of a public charge without a previous financial resolution of this House? I In asking this, I hope it will be clearly understood that the question has relation to any future measures that may come before the House, and in no way challenges the ruling already given in regard to a particular Bill.
§ Mr. SPEAKERI am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. In my judgment the proper time to take exception to a Bill is when the Order is read. Of course, if a Bill has not been printed and circulated at that moment, it is impossible for objection then to be taken, and for general convenience it should be taken on the first reasonable opportunity. That is all I can say. When the Department or hon. Mem- 50 bers who object have seen the contents of the Bill, that is the time when objection should be taken. With regard to the second question put by the right hon. Gentleman it is no doubt the duty of the Chair to watch very closely Bills which are brought into this House and are circulated and stand for Second Reading. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that I had to apologise for not having made myself master of the contents of this Bill. I will only say there are fifty-seven Bills on the Orders for to-day. It is really impossible for me to read them all or to master the contents of them all. I have to throw myself on the indulgence of the House. I look to the Departments concerned for assistance, and I shall always be glad to receive any indication from them of their view as to whether the contents of a Bill are or are not in order, and on that I wilt exercise my own judgment.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINMay I ask whether, to lighten the task of the Department and at the same time to facilitate the task of the Chair, it would be possible that in such cases it should be open to the Department to give notice of objection to the Order on this particular ground to the particular Member concerned, so that, as the Amendment appears on the Order Paper, there will be such notice visible to the Chair and to the House that objection is taken by the Department on the ground that the Bill imposes a public charge.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat would be a novel practice, and I would not like at the moment to commit myself to it. The usual practice is this: The Department, as soon as the Bill is circulated, if it is in any doubt, calls the attention of the authorities of the House, including myself, to it. I then come to the best decision I can upon it, and if my decision is adverse to the Bill, I am then in a positon to inform the promoters, and if the Bill should stand as first Order on a particular day, the promoters are not disappointed if they find that it is my duty to rule that the Bill is out of order. I think it is rather hard on the promoters that they should bring their Friends down here to support a Bill and then find suddenly at the last moment that objection is taken to it, and the Chair has to rule that it cannot be proceeded with. Although technically that line of procedure is perfectly proper, I repeat it is rather hard on the promoters that it should be so.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEMay I ask whether that would involve the presentation of resolutions on a Bill which involves the expenditure of public money before the Second Reading?
§ Mr. SPEAKERA private Member cannot present such a resolution. It must be presented by a Member of the Government. With regard to Government Bills which impose a charge, the Government are, of course, fully aware of that fact and can take their own measures for setting up Committee and getting the resolutions through.
§ Mr. LLOYD GEORGEWhat I want to know is, does it necessarily involve a Committee before the Second Reading?
§ Mr. CHIOZZA MONEYWho is the authority who decides whether or not a Bill shall be printed? I had a Bill, an order to print which was refused, but I found that a very similar Bill before the House last Friday had been printed. I want to know who is the authority which has power to stop the printing of a Bill?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThe authority, I suppose, is myself. I am aided, of course, by very expert gentlemen in different Departments of the House of Commons, but still I am responsible. I do not recall the Bill the hon. Member refers to. I should doubt if it was identically the same as the one moved last Friday, as lie suggests, as I think the promoters of the Bill were careful to insert a Clause which would pass muster, and the hon. Member did not put that particular Clause in his Bill. With regard to the answer I gave to the Chancellor of the Exchequer just now, of course if a Bill is entirely a Money Bill simply for the purpose of imposing a charge upon the people, then a preliminary Resolution is absolutely necessary, and a Bill of that kind, brought in by a private Member, cannot be proceeded with without it
§ Mr. HOBHOUSEMay I ask a further question, Sir, with your indulgence? It is laid down that it is not possible for the Chair to put to the House a Bill which imposes a charge upon the public unless an authorisation has been received by a Resolution passed in Committee of the Whole House. You, Sir, on Friday last ruled that if the point had escaped your notice at the earlier part of the proceedings of the House you would be precluded from thus ruling the Bill out of order. In the page of Sir Erskine May, to which I 52 ventured to refer you very respectfully, it is there laid down that it is not within the competence of the Chair to put such a Bill to the House. Therefore, Sir, I direct your attention to the fact that if the practice as laid down by Sir Erskine May is to be followed it is impossible for the Chair not to withdraw the Bill from the cognizance of the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKERPer incuriam a wrong question may be put, and if this should occur the best thing to do is to take steps to retrieve your error. I will take the best steps I can to retrieve my error by setting to work to read all the Bills likely to come on.
§ Mr. BOOTHWhat is to happen in the case of private Members? Supposing we leave it to the Departments and they prove not to be careful watchdogs, is it open for a private Member to ask you the question? Bills are often not printed, and last Friday in the Vote Office I found twenty Bills which had not been. Supposing an hon. Member discovers a point of this sort is he at liberty to assist you, Sir?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI shall be very glad indeed to receive assistance.
§ Mr. LEIF JONESYou said, Sir, that promoters might be disappointed if they came down with their friends at the last moment and found it impossible to proceed with a Bill, and that would no doubt be unfortunate; but may I ask whether, if a valid objection is raised even at the last moment, you would rule the Bill out of order? Otherwise hon. Members might be deprived of their legitimate right to object to a Bill.
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf objection is raised, even at the last moment, I am bound, of course, to rule that a Bill shall not be proceeded with. All I was saying was that the usual practice has been to call the attention of the Speaker sometime before in order that Members who come down shall not be disappointed. I think that is a very reasonable practice.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINMay I ask you, Sir, in particular to say whether in the case of a Government Bill such as the Insurance Bill it is necessary that there should be a Resolution before the Second Reading stage. I understand in reference to that Bill a Resolution will be required before we come to the Committee stage—either before we enter upon the Committee stage or upon certain Clauses 53 during the Committee stage, but what I wanted to make quite certain of was whether you rule that in the case of such a Bill objection should be taken before the Second Reading?
§ Mr. SPEAKERNot before the Second Reading, but before the Clause is entered upon.