HC Deb 18 May 1911 vol 25 cc2153-7

Resolution Reported—"That a sum, not exceeding £388,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expenses of the Royal Naval Reserve, the Royal Fleet Reserve (including Seamen Pensioner Reserve), and the Royal Naval Volunteers, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1912."

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."

Lord CHARLES BERESFORD

As I be hove there is some sort of agreement whereby these Votes are to go through as soon as possible on account of the fact that the Government are giving an extra day for the discussion of the Navy, I shall not trespass beyond asking the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty a few questions. The reserve for the Fleet is, as everyone recognises, one of the most important things in preparation for war. As far as the Royal Naval Reserve goes it is principally formed of mercantile marine seamen, and fishermen. The danger of the present system is that if we were suddenly to go to war our Navy would be hampered to this extent. It is the business of the Navy to do everything it can to allow the mercantile marine to carry out its duty wherever possible. There are 18,500 men who under the present system would be taken from the mercantile marine at the very moment when they would be most required. The First Lord will understand that there is no complaint for allowing the men to remain in the mercantile marine as long as possible. As far as the Royal Fleet Reserve goes, nothing could be more satisfactory than the 22,000 or 23,000 men who passed from the Navy to that Reserve, but I am talking of the Royal Naval Reserve. That you were very short of men was evident from the answer of the right hon. Gentleman to my question, which showed that he joined 12,900 men and boys this year. The country and the House believed from the Estimates that you only joined 3,000, but you did join 12,900. This will effect the Reserve very considerably, and I would ask the right hon. Gentleman did he join these men because we were short of men in the Navy that year? The right hon. Gentleman puts into the Estimate in Vote A only the cost both for the Fleet Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve and the Volunteer Reserve. There are no particulars beyond what the amount is. Now with regard to the medical part of the Reserve, they must be very few because the whole sum taken is only £1,100. I do not like to trespass upon this question, as we have not yet the result of the Durham Committee, but the right hon. Gentleman must know that in time of war we should have a proper Reserve Medical Department and a proper staff for nursing and so on. What we have at present is not fit to go on board ship, and they are totally unfitted to do the duties which fall to them in the time of war. Will the right hon. Gentleman give us some hint that he will increase the Reserve so far as the Medical Department goes, for the Fleet in time of war. This Reserve is very short indeed, and I do hope something will be done to increase it.

There is another point, and that is the sick berth staff. The men of the general Reserve will never be able to do that duty, and there are a large amount of these billets that could be filled by men who have passed through the Navy. These men know their work thoroughly; they are accustomed to accidents on board ship and to accidents that often cause death, and they would be invaluable in time of war. I see, in an answer the right hon. Gentleman has given, that he puts clown the men who joined the Special Service in the Special Service Estimates at 345. Does he mean these to be Short Service men, and will he tell me whether he has increased the number of Short Service men or decreased them? I have before told the right hon. Gentleman my opinion of these men in the Fleet. They are not good men, and not the men we ought to have in the Service. They are specially joined to go into the Reserve. I shall be very glad to know whether there has been an increase or a decrease this year in the numbers; these are the only points I wish to raise.

4.0 P.M.

The FIRST LORD of the ADMIRALTY (Mr. McKenna)

In pursuance of the arrangement arrived at, the Noble Lord has been extremely brief, and I am very much obliged to him for it. I will reply to his questions in the same brief terms, and I hope to be able to satisfy him in every point he raised. As regards the service of the Royal Naval Reserve men in time of war, it was largely with a view to meeting the very point which the Noble Lord has now emphasised that the Royal Fleet Reserve has been so much extended as was the case in the last few years, and I need hardly say how gladly I welcome the appreciation of the establishment of the Reserve by the Noble Lord. We are increasing the Royal Fleet Reserve year by year. The total of the Royal Fleet Reserve and the Royal Naval Reserve has been for some years now slowly rising, but the Royal Naval Reserve has been diminishing and the Royal Naval Fleet Reserve increasing. This year has been an exception to previous years. Of the two branches now the Royal Fleet Reserve is the larger, and, of course, in the event of war the first, call will be presumably upon the Royal Fleet Reserve. It would be impossible to say what in the long run we might require in the way of calling up our Reserves, but in the early stages of the war I do not think we should need more than the Volunteers from the Royal Naval Reserve. A certain number would be willing to volunteer immediately, whether we should have to call all up is a matter of opinion which can only be formed at the last moment. Therefore, the general policy is to meet the Noble Lord's view and in the first instance to look to the Royal Fleet Reserve. As regards the number of men entered last year, which, as I stated in reply to a question of the Noble Lord, was something over 12,000, he must not overlook the fact that a great part of these entries were made in order to supply normal wastage. That is to make up the additional 3,000 men. I forget how the figures exactly stood at the close of last financial year, but in making up an average of 3,000 we had to enter more than that number. The Noble Lord suggests that the form of the estimate might be amended to give the numbers of the Fleet Reserve. Although the numbers are given, I admit they are somewhat hidden, and I can quite understand that they may have escaped the Noble Lord's notice. If, however, he will look on page 11 of Vote A he will find that the numbers of the reserve are given there as "Royal Fleet Reserve 24,700." I admit that the volume of the Navy Estimates is so large and contains such an enormous number of items that these matters are difficult to find, but I will take into account the observation which the Noble Lord has made on this point. With regard to special service class the intention is to keep them, at any rate as regards the seamen class, more or less at their present number. I think the Noble Lord is a little hard upon the special service class. When they enter the reserve they have had five years' training, and in any other country than ours they would be regarded as long-service men. Nearly all the navies of the world are manned by men with no more than three years' service, and I am a little unwilling to believe that in five years' service we are unable to make a man properly qualified to enter the Navy Reserve.

Lord C. BERESFORD

My point was that when the men originally enter they are not the right class of men because they are not good men, and after five years' service they will not be good men. They are not the same class as those who, join the Royal Navy. I am speaking from my own experience of these men as a commander, and I say that they are not the class of men we ought to have in the Navy.

Mr. McKENNA

Of course I am not so competent to judge on this point as the Noble Lord, but I know that a large number of them are drawn from precisely the same class as those who enter the Royal Navy, the difference being that special service men enter later, and have not had the advantage of training as boys like the ordinary seamen get. But after two or three years, according to the reports I have received, these special service seamen are quite suited to the service they are called upon to render, and I should view with a great alarm any alteration in the system of filling up our Fleet Reserve. The Noble Lord has asked me about the Medical Reserve. If he will look into the Votes he will find there is an item of £1,500 for the Medical Reserve. There are a large number of proposals before the Admiralty, and more than one problem is involved in giving sanction to the recommendations of the Committee. Therefore at the present moment I am not prepared to say more than is contained in the Estimates. Throughout the Estimates we are proposing this year a sum of £20,000 to carry out some of the recommendations of the Committee.

Question put, and agreed to.