HC Deb 29 March 1911 vol 23 cc1437-51

For the words "carried on upon the premises by the licence-holder" in the definition of premises in relation to the value of licensed premises in Section 52 of the principal Act there shall be substituted the words "authorised by the licence," and the provision in the Section shall be construed accordingly.—[Mr. Gretton.]

Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."


The purpose of this is a very simple one, namely, only that portion of licensed premises which is used for the licensed trade shall be liable to the Licence Duty. Section 52 of the principal Act says: "The expression 'premises' in relation to the value of licensed premises, includes any offices, courts, yards, and gardens occupied together with the house in which the liquor is sold, except any such offices, courts, yards, or gardens as are proved to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to be used for any trade or business carried on upon the premises by the licence-holder."

The Amendment would come in in this way. Instead of the words, "carried on upon the premises by the licence-holder," you substitute the words, "authorised by the licence." The Clause as it stands in the principal Act results in very great hardship. Everyone in the House will understand that in large and considerable premises there are some portions which are not the subject of the licence, or which are not connected with the licensed business—portions where liquors cannot be sold. The case becomes even still harder and still more oppressive where there are two separate holdings on the licensed premises, one held by the licence-holder and the other let off for a business carried on by someone who is not holding the licence. Here is a case for which I should like to give chapter and verse, the case of a place where there are two assessments, the licensed premises being assessed at £80 a year, and the adjoining premises and stables at £100 a year. But the Commissioners claim that both those places in the aggregate should be treated as one for the purpose of the licensed duty. In spite of every argument advanced, it appears they are justified in holding that view under the Clause as it now stands. This case has been discussed several times, and the Government said they intended to deal with the grievance, but they have not dealt with it yet. I am not here to rely on any pledge; I rely to-night on the justice of the case I put before the House. Obviously, it is unfair to charge Licence Duty on portions of the premises which are not used for the licensed business. This matter is one of still greater hardship now that the Licence Duty is becoming an enormous and vastly increased burden, and the operation of the Clause of the principal Act is manifestly unfair. The intention of the Act is that the licence holder shall pay the Licence Duty on that portion of the premises in which he does his licensed trade. But to charge the Licence Duty on premises which are not necessary for the licensed trade is a manifest injustice. I propose this Clause for the careful consideration of the Government, for it deals with a very flagrant injustice, which I am sure they do not wish to continue. I do not know that they intend to oppose the Clause which I submit, but I imagine that the only argument which they can urge against it will be the difficulty of administration. I have one case in my hands to-night, and I am quite prepared to give other cases where there would be no difficulty in making a separate assessment, which would immediately get over the supposed difficulty of enabling justice to prevail.

Mr. W. R. PEEL

I beg to second the Motion.

Under the interpretation that has been put upon the Clause of the principal Act by the valuers and by the collectors of the Licence Duty, apparently it is not possible for a licensee to carry on another business on the same premises. If he does carry on another business on the same premises that raises the assessable value of his portion of the premises, and as his Licence Duty is charged upon the annual value of the premises, the effect of carrying on a second business is to very largely raise the amount of Licence Duty he has to pay. That does seem to me to be an extraordinary proposition. What possible objection can there be to the licensed holder carrying on another business? I should have thought from the point of view of principle that he could have carried on another business, and should not be entirely taken up with the trade in liquor. He could carry on another business to which no doubt a large proportion of his time and his principal attention might be devoted. There is another point of principle involved in this Amendment. After all, the whole idea of these very largely increased Licence Duties is that you should appropriate to the State the monopoly value conferred upon the licence holder by the licence. It cannot possibly be contended that the State by their licence has conferred any monopoly value in connection with any other business carried on by the licence holder. Therefore, on principle, again, it seems to me utterly unfair and absurd that this other business should be part of the monopoly value of the licensed business. Surely then you ought to limit the range and effect of the tax to the licensed business. It is contended that some businesses might be assisted by having adjacent to them a licensed business. That may be so, but anyhow there are businesses which are not so assisted. Take the businesses carried on by licensed holders in the smaller towns. Take the case of a jobmaster. I do not quite see why a licensee should not be able to carry on that business without paying an extra charge for his licence. There was the case of the undertaker suggested by a former Solicitor-General who might actually be charged higher Licence Duty according to the number of coffins he might have in an adjoining garden. If the licensee choose to let the extra portion of his business to somebody else, that other person can carry out the business entirely unaffected by the duty. Thus the other business may enhance the licence, but the moment somebody else conducts it there is no duty. That is a very grave injustice, and even if there is some administrative difficulty, it is one that ought to be got over. This does seem to show another instance of the absurdity of charging the licensees on the annual value instead of on the amount of business discharged, which is the only fair basis on which you really should charge them.


I think the best part of the speech of the hon. Member who seconded will give some indication of what is in his mind in proposing this new Clause. Leaving aside altogether those observations which would introduce a discussion of a much wider character, I will confine myself to the new Clause before the House, and deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Rutland (Mr. Gretton). The matter stands thus. The Licence Duty has to be calculated on the annual value, and the annual value of the premises has to be calculated, and was formerly calculated, under the Revenue Act of 1880 and under the Excise Act of 1885; and the method under both those Acts is just the same as it was when the principal Act of 1909–10 was introduced. Before Amendment was made there was a concession granted to hon. Members, which they will, no doubt, remember. They make no reference to the exemption which is included under Section 52 in respect of any trade or business which may be carried on in the premises, or any business connected with the premises which was distinct from the trade or business carried on by the licence-holder. That concession was given, and those words were introduced and accepted at the time. There is now an effort to introduce a further concession, and an extension, therefore, of the exemptions which were offered by the Government in answer to the arguments which were pressed during the discussion of the principal Act. It is impossible for the Government to accept this Amendment. First of all, it would mean loss of revenue, and it would make, as the hon. Member for Rutland rightly said, a great difficulty in administration.


I did not say that it would.


The hon. Gentleman foresaw that it would be said by the Government that there would be a difficulty in administration.


From my knowledge of the Government.


And from the hon. Member's expert knowledge. He is quite right in the view he takes. That is one of the objections to it. But I rest the case upon this. What we have done is to make a concession under the principal Act, going as far as we could go then, and no case has been made out for any further concession. On the contrary, the words introduced have carried out exactly what was said by the Government and what was understood at the time. Therefore, on behalf of the Government, I cannot accept the Amendment.


The Attorney-General has done just what I thought he would; but all the same his arguments do not hold good. That which the hon. and learned Gentleman says was a concession is surely improperly described. There is no concession at all in exempting businesses of the kind referred to. Under the old system, when the tax was very small, the valuation of the whole of the premises was a matter of comparatively little consequence, but it becomes a matter of very serious consequence when the tax is large. We protested at the time against the words which were introduced into the Act on the ground that they were not nearly sufficient to cover the situation, but the then Solicitor-General could not see his way to go any further, although I think he was personally inclined to do so. We intimated, however, that we were by no means satisfied. Is it not an absurdity when there is a heavy duty of this kind, that you should include in the valuation of a hotel, for instance, stables that may be in another part of the town? It is perfectly monstrous and ridiculous, but if the Attorney-General consults his advisers he will be told that that is what is done. As further showing the absurdity and inconsistency of this administration, they include in this valuation of a hotel the yard, offices, stables, and all that sort of thing, and charge full licence duty upon them; but if a country fair comes along and the licence holder puts up a small stand or something of that sort in the yard and sells beer to the country people, down come the customs and excise authorities and compel him to take out an occasional licence. Can anything be more ridiculous? Either the yard is licensed or it is not. Of course it is not licensed, and not being licensed you have no right whatever to rope it in and charge the Licence Duty upon it. The impossibility of fairly and equitably charging duty on this annual value has been admitted by the Government over and over again, and it is admitted in Section 44, which prescribes that a new register of annual licence values shall be prepared for the purpose of assessing the duty. Are you going to get these places roped in for the purpose of Licence Duty? Of course not. A stable in the next street is not to count; an undertaker's business at the end of the yard is not to count; only the trade that a man does is to be counted. Because you have passed a law which is taking an unconscionable time to get into smooth working order these people have to suffer, and you make no endeavour to save them from suffering at a very unfair and absurd rate. If this annual register of licence values had been ready, for instance, for the Budget of this next year, this Amendment would never have been proposed. It would not have been necessary. Heaven only knows when this register will appear. We have not even yet got the annual register of licence values for the £500 houses for 1909–10. I have asked for it again and again, and I am always told that it is going to appear in a very few weeks. If this comparatively small number of licences, a few thousands, are not yet valued, what hope is there for the next Budget or two to have the register of the whole of the licensed houses in the country?

When such a flagrant case of injustice is brought before the Government it is their bounden duty to do something to remedy it. But there are no bowels of compassion, so far as I can see. The Attorney-General would perhaps like to say that we had a concession the other day on Clause 4 of the Bill? I was grateful for it, but it was no concession: it was the Government's recognition of their own mistake. Even this Government, when it recognises that it has made a mistake, tries, as a rule, to put the matter right. Here is a hardship. A hotel-keeper's stable, two streets off, is roped into the hotel for the purpose of Licence Duty. He cannot store a cask in it, or sell a cask of beer out of it. What has the hon. and learned Gentleman to say of the hotel-keeper in the Highlands who has got a place a considerable distance from his hotel where he occasionally sends some one to sleep when the hotel is too full? Would the right hon. Gentleman rope that in for Licence Duty? If he says he would not, let me tell him his officials would. I suppose the right hon. Gentleman has not been able to bring the bright beams of his intellect to bear upon the Clause. It may be that he thinks that any alteration will create administrative difficulties. I do not blame him; but I do say that the Government ought to see that this Clause works justly.


There has been talk of concessions. I want a little justice. I have several hotels in my Constituency, and the stables of them are removed entirely from the hotel. Why are these stables kept? Not for the amusement of the landlord. We have visitors—Members of this House it may be—who want to drive about the country and enjoy it. A beautiful country it is. Why should you deny visitors their pleasure? If the Government's proposal is unjust, I ask hon. Gentleman to join with me in an appeal to the Government to put it right


I hardly think the learned Attorney-General is aware of the full extent of this injustice. I know very well cases of hotels and other licensed establishments which are of great value to the growing towns in which they are. I can give the Attorney-General one case in which on the premises are carried on a clothier's, millinery, and ironmonger's business, and that of wine and spirits and provisions. Each of these Departments are, to all intents and purposes, separate. They have been so considered by the local authorities who have actually, for local rating purposes, treated them separately. The spirit branch, as a matter of fact, takes up one-fifth of one of the departments, or one-twentieth of the whole of the business. Although treated separately for rating purposes, when it comes to a question of Licence Duty, down comes the Commissioner and says: "These are four separate departments, but, for the purpose of enabling your manager to supervise your business properly, you have a passage running along at the back, and that constitutes one whole business," and, notwithstanding that the excisable goods only occupy one-twentieth of the whole, the proprietor has to pay Licence Duty on the whole. Surely that is an injustice that ought to be remedied. It is grotesque that a comparatively small little country place should be thus rated on the gross, with the result that it is charged a Licence Duty such as Harrod's Stores has to pay in London. A system of licensing that brings about such an injustice as that ought to be remedied. The different departments are rated separately for local purposes, and why on earth cannot the Inland Revenue Authorities rate them similarly for licence purposes. I do not say that a pledge was given in connection with this matter, but I say there is here a just claim for remedy—a claim founded upon an oversight—because I do not think any Government could ever have intended to institute a system of that kind, and I hope the Attorney-General, who, I am sure, is actuated by a keen desire to do what is right, will not put down his foot and refuse to consider this matter.


I want to join with my hon. Friend the Member for West Aberdeenshire (Mr. J. M. Henderson) in asking the Government to deal with this grievance. The case put by my hon. Friend was startling, but I can assure my right hon. Friend the Postmaster-General that I have the same information. I do not see what reason the Government can give to justify such an arrangement. I can see no reason why a man should pay Licence Duty on a stable in which he keeps his horses. In my own Constituency and all over Scotland hotel proprietors are bound to keep posting establishments, and it is very unfair that a man who keeps horses for the convenience of the district should have to pay Licence Duty on the stables used for such a purpose. The hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Mr. G. Younger) said under the old Licence Duties it was perhaps unimportant, but since Licence Duties have been so increased it has become very serious for a great many of the struggling hotels all over Scotland. Although the matter is a difficult one to meet, I hope it is not beyond the capacity of the Government to find a remedy for it.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Mr. Herbert Samuel)

Until the Budget of 1909 the basis of annual value had been standing for eighty-five years, and it had been well established. We made a departure in order to deal with certain particular hard cases. Now it is proposed to overthrow the whole basis of the law of the assessment of public-houses altogether. The reason why these parts of the premises are brought into the licensed valuation, although the liquor may not be actually sold in those particular parts of the premises, is that they bring business to the licensed trade that is carried on in those premises. The hon. Member opposite gave an illustration of the farmers coming in with their carts on market day and going to drink in the public-house.


What I said was that the farmers set up a small table in the yard for which you make them pay licence.


That is quite a separate point, and does not strictly arise on this Clause. The hon. Member gave the illustration of farmers coming with their traps into places within the curtilage of the public-house, and then going into the public-house to drink; consequently business is brought to the premises by the fact that the premises are extensive. It is quite impossible to draw the line suggested by hon. Members opposite. Suppose you say that stables attached to a public-house are not to count as part of the licensed premises for the purposes of valuation—how are you going to draw the line at stables? Would you say that outhouses or barns attached to the building are not to be allowed also?


The Amendment restricts this strictly to the premises authorised by the certificate.


But why should you do so? There is no principle of justice there. Liquor cannot be sold in the outhouses or in the residential part of the premises, and why should you assess for Licence Duty the bedrooms and the attics in which the members of the household live? If you abandon this principle you will be involved in the greatest possible administrative difficulties. The Government saw at the same time when we were discussing the Bill of 1909 that anomalies and hardships do arise through the fact that you take annual value as the basis of your Licence Duty. That is not the best basis, and it is far from being an ideal basis at all. Therefore, we said the right policy is to shift the Licence Duty altogether from annual value, to get away from all those questions of barns, stables, and outhouses, and take the value of the premises as they are with the licence and the value without a licence, and then take the difference between the two and charge the Licence Duty upon that. That is a right and fair basis of valuation, and we are authorised by the Act of 1909 to carry out the valuation on those lines with a view of placing the Licence Duty on what is unquestionably a far better basis. Instead of trying to tinker further with the annual value, which has been the basis of the law for eighty-five years, it is better to wait, until we can get out a proper valuation, which is now being proceeded with by the Board of Inland Revenue, and to place once and for all the whole system on a much fairer basis of Licence Duty valuation.


I have listened to the reply of the Postmaster-General, and I fail to see that he has answered the points put by my hon. Friends on this side of the House. On the Second Reading of this Bill I brought a concrete case absolutely similar to the one mentioned already of licensed premises, which was a free House with part of the premises used for a tobacco business and the rest for the licensed trade. The Financial Secretary to the Treasury, in response to a remark which I made, said it seemed to him it was a very unusual case, and he asked me to give him the details. It was a case in which the tax amounted to no less than 4s. in the £1 on his unlicensed business. That was a Super-tax on his business. I gave these figures at the request of the right hon. Gentleman, but I do not know whether he received them or not, because he had not the courtesy to acknowledge the receipt of them.


I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I did receive them, and I did acknowledge them.


I did not receive the answer, but no doubt a mistake has been made, and I willingly withdraw and apologise for having made that remark. It is a case of considerable difficulty, and one which I think is unusual. I do think there ought to be some method of separately assessing for taxation two businesses carried on under one firm. It is not right that a man should be heavily taxed because he happens to have another business which he cannot separate from his licensed business. I sincerely hope the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill will see his way to reconsider the decision already made and reduce undoubted hardships which will occur through the action and the incidence of this tax.


I do not feel quite satisfied with the explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman the Postmaster-General. It seems to me in this case there is really a grievance which requires to be dealt with. The case, as I understand, upon which main reliance is placed is one where there are premises in a different curtilage from that in which liquor is lawfully sold which will be included for the purposes of taxation. Although I have had some experience of licensing matters, I am bound to say I do not know of one myself, but, if such a grievance does exist, it is obvious, I think, to everyone's sense of justice it should be dealt with, and I hope it will receive attention from His Majesty's Government.


I have had an opportunity of consulting the officials of the Customs and Excise Department, and they assure me they are much surprised at the statements made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rutland (Mr. Gretton) and the hon. Member for Ayr Burghs (Mr. Younger). They conveyed to me their surprise that the statement that cases of the assessment of separate curtilages, such as stables, existed. I will undertake, on behalf of the Government, to have this question looked into. With regard to what has fallen from the hon. Member for Ton-bridge (Captain Spender Clay), I should like to repeat that I did receive the particulars he was good enough to send me, and I certainly signed a letter in answer to him, after having myself investigated the facts. I am afraid the contents of the letter would hardly meet his wishes and expectations, but I want to give him the assurance that I personally attended to the matter.


Did the right hon. Gentleman's officials also express surprise at my statement that occasionally it was demanded for yards?


I am dealing entirely with the point as to curtilage.

Question put, "That the Clause be now read a second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 168; Noes, 261.

Division No. 95.] AYES. [10.0 p.m.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Gretton, John Peel, Captain R. F. (Woodbridge)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Guinness, Hon. W. E. Peel, Hon. W. R. W. (Taunton)
Archer-Shee, Major M. Haddock, George Bahr Perkins, Walter F.
Ashley, W. W. Hambro, Angus Valdemar Pollock, Ernest Murray
Balcarres, Lord Helmsley, Viscount Pretyman, Ernest George
Baldwin, Stanley Hickman, Colonel T. E. Pryce-Jones, Colonel E.
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hill, Sir Clement L. Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Hillier, Dr. A. P. Remnant, James Farquharson
Barnston, H. Hills, J. W. Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Bathurst, Charles (Wilton) Hoare, S. J. G. Ronaldshay, Earl of
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hope, Harry (Bute) Rothschild, Lionel de
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Royds, Edmund
Benn, I. H. (Greenwich) Houston, Robert Paterson Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Bigland, Alfred Hunt, Rowland Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bird, A. Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Sanders, Robert A.
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Boyle, W. L. (Norfolk, Mid) Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bridgeman, W. Clive Kimber, Sir Henry Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Bull, Sir William James Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Spear, John Ward
Burn, Colonel C. R. Knight, Captain E. A. Stanier, Beville
Campion, W. R. Lane-Fox, G. R. Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Carlile, E. Hildred Larmor, Sir J. Starkey, John R.
Cassel, Felix Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.) Stewart, Gershom
Castlereagh, Viscount Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Swift, Rigby
Cator, John Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Sykes, Alan John
Cave, George Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Thynne, Lord A.
Clive, Percy Archer Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Clyde, J. Avon Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale) Touche, George Alexander
Courthope, G. Loyd Lyttelton, Hon. J. C. (Droitwich) Tullibardine, Marquess of
Craig, Norman (Kent) MacCaw, William J. MacGeagh Valentia, Viscount
Croft, H. P. Malcolm, Ian Walker, Colonel William Hall
Dairymple, Viscount Morpeth, Viscount Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott- Mount, William Arther Warde, Colonel C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Dixon, C. H. Newdegate, F. A. Weigall, Captain A. G.
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Newton, Harry Kottingham Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset, W.)
Du Cros, Arthur Philip Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Winterton, Earl
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Nield, Herbert Wolmer, Viscount
Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury) Worthington-Evans, L. (Colchester)
Gardner, Ernest Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A. Yate, Col. C. E. (Leics., Melton)
Gibbs, G. A. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William Younger, George
Goldsmith, Frank Paget, Almeric Hugh
Goulding, Edward Alfred Parkes, Ebenezer TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Butcher and Mr. Boyton.
Grant, J. A. Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Greene, W. R.
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Beauchamp, Edward Chapple, Dr. W. A.
Acland, Francis Dyke Benn, W. W. (Tower Hamlets, St. Geo.) Clancy, John Joseph
Adamson, William Bentham, G. J. Collins, G. P. (Greenock)
Agnew, Sir George William Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Black, Arthur W. Compton-Rickett, Rt. Hon. Sir J.
Allen, Charles P. (Stroud) Boland, John Pius Condon, Thomas Joseph
Anderson, A. M. Booth, Frederick Handel Corbett, A. Cameron
Armitage, R. Bowerman, C. W. Cowan, W. H.
Atherley-Jones, Llewellyn A. Boyle, D. (Mayo, N.) Crawshay-Williams, Eliot
Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Brace, William Crooks, William
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Brigg, Sir John Crumley, Patrick
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Burke, E. Haviland- Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)
Barnes, G. N. Burns, Rt. Hon. John Davies, E. William (Eifion)
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S.)
Barton, William Byles, William Pollard Dawes, J. A.
Beale, W. P. Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Delany, William
Dewar, Sir J. A. Joyce, Michael Radford, G. H.
Dillon, John Keating, M. Raffan, Peter Wilson
Donelan, Captain A. Kellaway, Frederick George Rea, Rt. Hon. Russell (South Shields)
Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness) Kilbride, Denis Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley) King, J. (Somerset, N.) Redmond, William (Clare)
Edwards, Enoch (Hanley) Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor) Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of Lansbury, George Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tipperary, N.) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Esmonds, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Levy, Sir Maurice Robinson, Sydney
Essex, Richard Walter Logan, John William Roch, Walter F. (Pembroke)
Fenwick, Charles Low, Sir F. (Norwich) Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Ferens, T. R. Lundon, T. Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Ffrench, Peter Lynch, A. A. Roe, Sir Thomas
Field, William Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Rose, Sir Charles Day
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Fitzgibbon, John MacGhee, Richard Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Flavin, Michael Joseph Maclean, Donald Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Furness, Stephen MacNeill, John Gordon Swift Scanlan, Thomas
Gelder, Sir W. A. M'Callum, John M. Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Gill, A. H. Manfield, Harry Sheehy, David
Glanville, H. J. Markham, Arthur Basil Shortt, Edward
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford Marks, G. Croydon Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Goldstone, Frank Marshall, Arthur Harold Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroe)
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Meagher, Michael Smith, H. B. L (Northampton)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Griffith, Ellis J. (Anglesey) Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Snowden, P.
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Menzies, Sir Walter Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Guest, Hon. Frederick E. (Dorset, E.) Millar, James Duncan Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Gulland, John W. Molloy, M. Summers, James Woolley
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Molteno, Percy Alport Sutherland, J. E.
Hackett, J. Mond, Sir Alfred M. Sutton, John E.
Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Money, L. G. Chlozza Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Hancock, J. G. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Mooney, J. J. Tennant, Harold John
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Morgan, George Hay Thomas, J. H. (Derby)
Hardie, J. Keir Morrell, Philip Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Harmsworth, R. L. Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Muldoon, John Verney, Sir Harry
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Munro, R. Wadsworth, J.
Harwood, George Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Neilson, Francis Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Nolan, Joseph Wardle, George J.
Hayden, John Patrick Norman, Sir Henry Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Hayward, Evan Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Watt, Henry A.
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) O'Brien. Patrick (Kilkenny) Webb, H.
Higham, John Sharp O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Hinds, John O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Doherty, Philip Whitehouse, John Howard
Hodge, John O'Donnell, Thomas Whyte, Alexander F. (Perth)
Horne, C. Silvester (Ipswich) O'Dowd, John Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Hudson, Walter O'Grady, James Williams, Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Hughes, S. L. O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Williams, P. (Middlesborough)
Hunter, W. (Govan) O'Malley, William Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Illingworth, Percy H. O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)
Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Sullivan, Timothy Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
John, Edward Thomas Parker, James (Halifax) Wilson, W. T. (Westhoughton)
Johnson, W. Pearce, William (Limehouse) Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham)
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Phillips, John (Longford, S.)
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pointer, Joseph TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Dudley Ward and Mr. Howard.
Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts, Stepney) Power, Patrick Joseph
Jowett, F. W. Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.)
Division No. 96.] AYES. [10.50 p.m.
Acland-Hood, Rt. Hon. Sir Alex. F. Gilmour, Captain J. Peel, Capt. R. F. (Woodbridge)
Anson, Sir William Reynell Goldman, C. S. Perkins, Walter F.
Archer-Shee, Major Martin Goldsmith, Frank Pole-Carew, Sir R.
Ashley, W. W. Goulding, Edward Alfred Pollock, Ernest Murray
Astor, Waldorf Grant, J. A. Pryce-Jones, Col. E. (Montgom'y B'ghs)
Baird, J. L. Greene, W. R. Quilter, William Eley C.
Baker, Sir R. L. (Dorset, N.) Guinness, Hon. Walter E. Ratcliff, Major R. F.
Balcarres, Lord Haddock, George Bahr Remnant, James Farquharson
Baldwin, Stanley Hall, Fred (Dulwich) Rice, Hon. Walter F.
Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (City, Lond.) Hambro, Angus Valdemar Roberts, S. (Sheffield, Ecclesall)
Banbury, Sir Frederick George Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashford) Ronaldshay, Earl of
Banner, John S. Harmood- Helmsley, Viscount Rothschild, Lionel de
Baring, Captain Hon. G. Henderson, J. M'D. (Aberdeen, W.) Royds, Edmund
Barlow, Montague (Salford, South) Hickman, Colonel T. E. Rutherford, Watson (L'pool, W. Derby)
Barnston, Harry Hillier, Dr. A. P. Salter, Arthur Clavell
Bathurst, Charles (Wilts, Wilton) Hills, J. W. Samuel, Sir Harry (Norwood)
Beach, Hon. Michael Hugh Hicks Hill-Wood, Samuel Sanders, Robert A.
Benn, Arthur Shirley (Plymouth) Hoare, S. J. G. Sanderson, Lancelot
Benn, Ion Hamilton (Greenwich) Hope, Harry (Bute) Sandys, G. J. (Somerset, Wells)
Beresford, Lord C. Hope, James Fitzalan (Sheffield) Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert
Bigland, Alfred Houston, Robert Paterson Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)
Bird, A. Hunt, Rowland Smith, Harold (Warrington)
Boscawen, Sackville T. Griffith- Hunter, Sir C. R. (Bath) Spear, John Ward
Boyle, W. Lewis (Norfolk, Mid) Jardine, E. (Somerset, E.) Stanier, Beville
Boyton, J. Kebty-Fletcher, J. R. Stanley, Hon. G. F. (Preston)
Bull, Sir William James Kinloch-Cooke, Sir Clement Starkey, John R.
Burn, Colonel C. R. Kirkwood, J. H. M. Staveley-Hill, Henry
Butcher, J. G. Knight, Capt. E. A. Stewart, Gershom
Campion, W. R. Lane-Fox, G. R. Swift, Rigby
Carlile, E. Hildred Larmor, Sir J. Sykes, Alan John
Cassel, Felix Law, Andrew Bonar (Bootle, Lancs.) Terrell, G. (Wilts, N.W.)
Castlereagh, Viscount Lewisham, Viscount Terrell, H. (Gloucester)
Cator, John Locker-Lampson, G. (Salisbury) Thynne, Lord A.
Cave, George Locker-Lampson, O. (Ramsey) Tobin, Alfred Aspinall
Chaloner, Colonel R. G. W. Lockwood, Rt. Hon. Lt.-Col. A. R. Touche, George Alexander
Clay, Captain H. H. Spender Long, Rt. Hon. Walter Tullibardine, Marquess of
Clive, Percy Archer Lowe, Sir F. W. (Birm., Edgbaston) Valentia, Viscount
Clyde, J. Avon Lowther, Claude (Cumberland, Eskdale) Walker, Col. William Hall
Courthope, G. Loyd Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. A. (Hanover Sq.) Walrond, Hon. Lionel
Craig, Captain James (Down, E.) MacCaw, Wm. J. MacGeagh Walsh, J. (Cork, South)
Craig, Norman (Kent) Malcolm, Ian Ward, Arnold S. (Herts, Watford)
Croft, H. P. Mildmay, Francis Bingham Warde, Col. C. E. (Kent, Mid)
Dairymple, Viscount Mills, Hon. Charles Thomas Weigall, Capt. A. G.
Dalziel, D. (Brixton) Morpeth, Viscount White, Major G. D. (Lancs., Southport)
Dewar, Sir J. A. Morrison-Bell, Capt. E. F. (Ashburton) Whyte, A. F. (Perth)
Dickson, Rt. Hon. C. Scott Morrison-Bell, Major A. C. (Honiton) Williams, Col. R. (Dorset, W.)
Dixon, C. H. Mount, William Arthur Willoughby, Major Hon. Claud
Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers- Neville, Reginald J. N. Winterton, Earl
Fell, Arthur Newdegate, F. A. Wolmer, Viscount
Fetherstonhaugh, Godfrey Newman, John R. P. Wood, John (Stalybridge)
Fiennes, Hon. Eustace Edward Newton, Harry Kottingham Worthington-Evans, L.
Fitzroy, Hon. E. A. Nicholson, Wm. G. (Petersfield) Yate, Colonel C. E.
Fleming, Valentine Nield, Herbert Younger, George
Forster, Henry William Norton-Griffiths, J. (Wednesbury)
Gardner, Ernest Orde-Powlett, Hon. W. G. A.
Gastrell, Major W. H. Ormsby-Gore, Hon. William TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Mr. Gretton and Mr. Peel.
Gibbs, G. A. Pearce, William (Limehouse)
Gilhooly, James Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington)
Abraham, William (Dublin Harbour) Birrell, Rt. Hon. Augustine Collins, Stephen (Lambeth)
Acland, Francis Dyke Black, Arthur W. Condon, Thomas Joseph
Adamson, William Boland, John Pius Cornwall, Sir Edwin A.
Agar-Robartes, Hon. T. C. R. Booth, Frederick Handel Cowan, W. H.
Agnew, Sir George William Bowerman, C. W. Craig, Herbert J. (Tynemouth)
Allen, Arthur Acland (Dumbartonshire) Boyle, O. (Mayo, N.) Crawshay-Williams, Eliot
Allen, Charles Peter (Stroud) Brace, William Crooks, William
Anderson, A. M. Brigg, Sir John Crumley, Patrick
Armitage, R. Brocklehurst, W. B. Dalziel, Sir James H. (Kirkcaldy)
Baker, H. T. (Accrington) Burns, Rt. Hon. John Davies, E. William (Eifion)
Baker, Joseph A. (Finsbury, E.) Burt, Rt. Hon. Thomas Davies, Timothy (Lincs., Louth)
Balfour, Sir Robert (Lanark) Buxton, Noel (Norfolk, N.) Davies, Sir W. Howell (Bristol, S)
Barnes, G. N. Buxton, Rt. Hon. Sydney C. (Poplar) Dawes, J. A.
Barran, Rowland Hirst (Leeds, N.) Byles, William Pollard Delany, William
Barry, Redmond John (Tyrone, N.) Cawley, Sir Frederick (Prestwich) Dillon, John
Barton, William Chancellor, H. G. Donelan, Capt. A. J. C.
Beale, W. P. Chapple, Dr. William Allen Duncan, C. (Barrow-in-Furness)
Beauchamp, Edward Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Duncan, J. Hastings (York, Otley)
Beck, Arthur Cecil Clancy, John Joseph Edwards, Enoch (Hanley)
Benn, W. W. (T. Hamlets, St. Geo.) Clynes, J. R. Edwards, Sir Francis (Radnor)
Bentham, G. J. Collins, G. P. (Greenock) Elibank, Rt. Hon. Master of
Esmonde, Dr. John (Tiperary, N.) Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'rld., Cockerm'th) Redmond, John E. (Waterford)
Esmonde, Sir Thomas (Wexford, N.) Levy, Sir Maurice Redmond, William (Clare, E.)
Essex, Richard Walter Logan, John William Rendall, Athelstan
Falconer, J. Lough, Rt. Hon. Thomas Richardson, Albion (Peckham)
Fenwick, Charles Low, Sir F. (Norwich) Richardson, Thomas (Whitehaven)
Ferens, T. R. Lundon, T. Roberts, Charles H. (Lincoln)
Ffrench, Peter Lynch, A. A. Roberts, G. H. (Norwich)
Field, William Macdonald, J. R. (Leicester) Robertson, Sir G. Scott (Bradford)
Fitzgibbon, John Macdonald, J. M. (Falkirk Burghs) Robertson, J. M. (Tyneside)
Flavin, Michael Joseph MacGhee, Richard Robinson, Sydney
Furness, Stephen W. Maclean, Donald Roche, Augustine (Louth)
Gelder, Sir W. A. MacVeagh, Jeremiah Roche, John (Galway, E.)
Gill, A. H. M'Callum, John M. Roe, Sir Thomas
Glanville, H. J. M'Laren, F. W. S. (Linc, Spalding) Rose, Sir Charles Day
Goddard, Sir Daniel Ford M'Laren, Walter S. B. (Ches., Crewe) Runciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Goldstone, Frank Manfield, Harry St. Maur, Harold
Greenwood, Granville G. (Peterborough) Markham, Arthur Basil Samuel, Rt. Hon. H. L. (Cleveland)
Greig, Colonel J. W. Marks, G. Croydon Samuel, J. (Stockton)
Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward Marshall, Arthur Harold Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)
Griffith, Ellis J. Masterman, C. F. G. Scanlan, Thomas
Guest, Major Hon. C. H. C. (Pembroke) Meagher, Michael Scott, A. MacCallum (Glasgow, Bridgeton)
Gwynn, Stephen Lucius (Galway) Meehan, Francis E. (Leitrim, N.) Seely, Col., Right Hon. J. E. B.
Hackett, J. Meehan, Patrick A. (Queen's Co.) Sheehy, David
Hall, Frederick (Normanton) Millar, James Duncan Shortt, Edward
Hancock, J. G. Molloy, M. Simon, Sir John Allsebrook
Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Lewis (Rossendale) Molteno, Percy Alport Smith, Albert (Lancs., Clitheroc)
Harcourt, Robert V. (Montrose) Mond, Sir Alfred Moritz Smyth, Thomas F. (Leitrim, S.)
Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil) Money, L. G. Chiozza Snowden, Philip
Harmsworth, R. L. Montagu, Hon. E. S. Stanley, Albert (Staffs, N.W.)
Harvey, T. E. (Leeds, W.) Morgan, George Hay Strauss, Edward A. (Southwark, West)
Harvey, W. E. (Derbyshire, N.E.) Morrell, Philip Summers, James Woolley
Haslam, James (Derbyshire) Morton, Alpheus Cleophas Sutherland, J. E.
Haslam, Lewis (Monmouth) Muldoon, John Sutton, John E.
Havelock-Allan, Sir Henry Munro, R. Taylor, John W. (Durham)
Haworth, Arthur A. Munro-Ferguson, Rt. Hon. R. C. Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)
Hayden, John Patrick Murray, Captain Hon. A. C. Tennant, Harold John
Hayward, Evan Neilson, Francis Thomas, J. H. (Derby)
Henderson, Arthur (Durham) Nolan, Joseph Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton)
Herbert, Col. Sir Ivor Norman, Sir Henry Trevelyan, Charles Philips
Higham, John Sharp Nugent, Sir Walter Richard Ure, Rt. Hon. Alexander
Hinds, John O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny) Verney, Sir Harry
Hobhouse, Rt. Hon. Charles E. H. O'Connor, John (Kildare, N.) Wadsworth, J.
Hodge, John O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool) Walsh, Stephen (Lancs., Ince)
Home, Charles Silvester, (Ipswich) O'Doherty, Philip Ward, John (Stoke-upon-Trent)
Howard, Hon. Geoffrey O'Donnell, Thomas Ward, W. Dudley (Southampton)
Hudson, Walter O'Dowd, John Wardle, George J.
Hughes, S. L. O'Grady, James Warner, Sir Thomas Courtenay
Hunter, W. (Govan) O'Kelly, Edward P. (Wicklow, W.) Wason, Rt. Hon. E. (Clackmannan)
Isaacs, Sir Rufus Daniel O'Malley, William Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)
Jardine, Sir J. (Roxburgh) O'Neill, Dr. Charles (Armagh, S.) Watt, Henry A.
John, Edward Thomas O'Shaughnessy, P. J. Webb, H.
Johnson, W. O'Sullivan, Timothy Wedgwood, Josiah C.
Jones, Edgar R. (Merthyr Tydvil) Palmer, Godfrey Mark White, Sir Luke (York, E.R.)
Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Parker, James (Halifax) Whitehouse, John Howard
Jones, Leif Stratten (Notts, Rushcliffe) Pearce, Robert (Staffs., Leek) Wiles, Thomas
Jones, William (Carnarvonshire) Pearson, Hon. Weetman H. M. Williams, J. (Glamorgan)
Jones, W. S. Glyn- (T. H'mts., Stepney) Pease, Rt. Hon. Joseph A. (Rotherham) Williams, W. Llewelyn (Carmarthen)
Jowett, F. W. Phillips, John (Longford, S.) Williams, P (Middlesbrough)
Joyce, Michael Pointer, Joseph Wilson, Hon. G. G. (Hull, W.)
Keating, M. Power, Patrick Joseph Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)
Kellaway, Frederick George Priestley, Sir Arthur (Grantham) Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N.)
Kennedy, Vincent Paul Priestley, Sir W. E. B. (Bradford, E.) Wilson, W T. (Westhoughton)
Kilbride, Denis Primrose, Hon. Nell James Wood, T. M'Kinnon (Glasgow)
King, J. (Somerset, N.) Radford, G. H.
Lambert, George (Devon, S. Molton) Raffan, Peter Wilson TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Illigworth and Mr Gulland.
Lambert, Richard (Wilts, Cricklade) Rea, Walter Russell (Scarborough)
Lansbury, George Reddy, M.