HC Deb 23 March 1911 vol 23 cc618-22
Mr. LEE

May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty a question of which I have given private notice?

Mr. MacNEILL

On a point of Order, Sir. I have already communicated to you a question which I wish to ask in reference to the practice of the House. Is it right or proper for an hon. Member to ask, on private notice, a question of which notice has been given in the ordinary way, and thus anticipate the answer and the credit of putting the question. What occurred was this——

Mr. SPEAKER

Is the hon. Gentleman asking a question or is he making a statement?

Mr. MacNEILL

I would first ask if it is in order?

Mr. SPEAKER

Then I will answer the hon. Member. It would not be in order if a question appeared on the Paper for an hon. Member to deliberately anticipate it by giving private notice of a similar question.

Mr. MacNEILL

In reference to the question put yesterday——[Several HON. MEMBERS: "What question?"] We all know what it is about; it is in reference to Barrow-in-Furness. That question was put down by the hon. Member for the Wells Division of Somerset (Mr. Sandys) on Tuesday; it appeared in the ordinary list of notices on Wednesday, and that hon. Member should have put it. Instead of that, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Arthur Lee) got up and anticipated it by putting a question on private notice. There is no doubt whatever about it——

Mr. SPEAKER

Is the hon. Gentleman asking me a question, or is he making a speech?

Mr. MacNEILL

I am asking a question, but I may have too much enlarged. The question is simply whether, having regard to the fact that this question is now on the Notice Paper, the hon. Member for Fareham is entitled to get up and ask it, when it belongs to another Member?

Mr. SPEAKER

If the hon. Member had spoken to me about it I would have explained the matter to him. The hon. Member for Fareham brought a question to me on Tuesday evening and asked whether I would allow it to be put on Wednesday, it being a matter of urgency. I told him that he could ask it. It was not until after I have given that permission—in fact, until to-day—that I observed that there was a question of the same import standing on the Paper for to-day. The question was put yesterday, and the hon. Member is now asking for an answer to the question then put.

Mr. LEE

The right hon. Gentleman said yesterday that he had not the information in his possession, and I asked if he would be able to give it to-day. [An HON. MEMBER: "What is the question?"] The question I asked yesterday was whether the attention of the right hon. Gentleman had been called to the exclusion of certain members of the crew of His Majesty's ship "Hermione" from a public entertainment at Barrow-in-Furness, on the sole ground, as alleged in the Press, that they were in uniform. I asked the right hon. Gentleman if he had informed himself on the matter, and, if so, what steps he proposed to take in the matter?

Mr. SANDYS

had given notice of the following question:—To ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that a number of men from His Majesty's ship "Hermione," on requesting admittance to a ball and whist drive at Barrow-in-Furness Town Hall on St. Patrick's Day, were informed that they could not enter until they changed from their uniforms into civilian clothes; will he say who were the persons responsible for this entertainment; and what steps he proposes to take to prevent such occurrences in the future?

Mr. McKENNA

There appears to be some conflict of evidence with regard to the circumstances attending this most regrettable incident. It is beyond question that some members of the ship's company of His Majesty's ship "Hermione" were denied admission to a ball and whist drive held at Barrow last Friday, to which the public were admitted on payment of 1s. The conflict of testimony arises from the question whether the men were excluded because they were in uniform or because they applied to be admitted after the doors had been closed against the public. The circumstances were brought by the commander of the ship to the knowledge of the Mayor of Barrow, who has written a letter which I hope I may be allowed to describe as very proper, and of which the following are the material paragraphs:— I was extremely sorry to note the contents of your letter of the 18th instant. I referred to the matter at the opening of the magistrates' court this morning, and the Chief Constable was instructed to report on what transpired to the bench of magistrates. We will then see whether any offence within the terms of our bye-laws has been committed. I feel very much upset that such an incident should have arisen in Barrow and such a slight passed on any of the men under your command I quite confirm what you state that the men of the 'Hermione' have during their stay in Barrow maintained in the matter of conduct the best traditions of the service. I may observe to the House that I have no power to take any action in the matter, but I may express my entire concurrence with the sentiments of the Mayor.

Mr. SANDYS

Arising out of that answer, may I ask the right hon. Gentle- man whether he can answer the second part of the original question, namely: who were the persons responsible for this entertainment?

Mr. MacNEILL

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman a question of which I have given him private notice? I wish to know whether it is not a fact that this entertainment was held, as it has been from year to year, under the auspices of the Irish Nationalist Association and kindred associations, and whether before the sailors applied for admission the rooms were overcrowded, and admission had been refused to well-known Irish Nationalists? I would like, also, to know if the right hon. Gentleman has not a copy of the full report given to the Mayor of Barrow-in-Furness by the chief constable?

Mr. McKENNA

As I stated in my original answer, there is a conflict of evidence as to the circumstances of the case, and I am not in a position to make any statement as to the facts. I agree with the mayor that the only course to be taken in these circumstances is to call for a report from the chief constable. As soon as that report reaches me I shall give it to the House.

Captain CRAIG

Is it not a fact that all such entertainments, balls, and otherwise, got up under the auspices of the United Irish League do not permit officers or men of the Army and Navy to attend?

Mr. McKENNA

I regret I have no knowledge on that point.

Mr. CHARLES DUNCAN

May I ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he has made any inquiry whatever from the promoters of this particular gathering, and whether he has received any information as to whether these men, who are members of the crew of the "Hermione," had any tickets to permit them to go into the meeting?

Mr. McKENNA

I have given the House all the information I have upon the subject. As I have stated, there is a conflict of evidence between the statement of the sailors and the statement of the promoters of the gathering. I have no further information.

Mr. CHARLES DUNCAN

The point I wish to put to the First Lord is, whether he will make inquiries from those who had the entertainment in hand as to what was the character of the proceedings?

Mr. McKENNA

I do not know that it is my duty to make any inquiries from the promoters of the gathering. The secretary has, I believe, communicated to the Press his view of the case, and upon his letter I have stated to the House that there is a conflict of evidence. I do not think I can go beyond that. The secretary is under no obligation to make a statement to me. All I can do is to take the statement he has made to the public Press.

Mr. SANDYS rose

——

Mr. SPEAKER

We will continue this debate on the Consolidated Fund Bill.