Sir HENRY DALZIELI beg to ask the Prime Minister whether he can give us anticipations as to the course of business to-day?
Mr. BALFOURPerhaps before the right hon. Gentleman replies to the hon. Gentleman opposite he will allow me to ask him whether he proposes to take the Navy Votes after eleven o'clock to-night? I may remind the right hon. Gentleman of the circumstances. My hon. Friend near me (Mr. Lee) put certain questions in the course of the Navy Debate to the First Lord of the Admiralty the other night. Owing to want of time, those questions were not answered. As I think the First Lord of the Admiralty will be prepared to admit some were and some were not. I would ask the Prime Minister, under those circumstances, Whether he-considers that it is eminently desirable, in view of the very short time we have had for dealing with the Navy Estimates, that the Votes should not be brought on at a late hour. I would also ask him whether the arrangement come to by assent of both sides, and sanctioned by Mr. Speaker, that there should be more than ordinary latitude given to Report on Votes A and 1 of the Army may not also be extended to the Votes on the Navy, in view of the very special circumstances which have attended our discussions on the Navy in the course of the present year. Those special circumstances were that most of our time has been taken up by discussing very important Amendments, moved, not by the Opposition but by hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. I mention that only to remind the Prime Minister of the very special circumstances under which I ask the question, and which justify me in hoping that the right hon. Gentleman will give me a favourable answer.
§ The PRIME MINISTERWith regard to Report on the Army Votes, I was not here at the time, but I have informed myself as to what took place. I understand that although Mr. Speaker did rule by general consent that there might be a general discussion on the Report of Votes A and 1, yet there was submitted for that an arrangement under which the Government agreed to give an extra day for this very purpose. I am in the recollection of the House. It was suggested by the Noble Lord below the Gangway. I am speaking of what took place in my absence, but I believe I am stating correctly what took place. In reply to the Noble Lord it was agreed that we should give another day.
Mr. BALFOURThe right hon. Gentleman has got his information from the OFFICIAL REPORT. I have not referred to 413 the Report; but, speaking from recollection, I thought that after the conversation which took place between the Noble Lord, the acting Leader of the House and myself, it was agreed that the matter should be left to be settled through the ordinary channels by which these things are arranged, when the right hon. Gentleman himself was in his place.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI confess I thought that there was something like an understanding that an extra day should be given, because I observe that the Patronage Secretary said—I am quoting from the OFFICIAL REPORT of 15th March:—
I can assure him (that is the Noble Lord), I give a distinct pledge of an extra day in view of the interesting debate which has taken place to-day."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March, 1911, col. 2422.]That is what I had in my recollection. But let us come to a clear understanding, because I shall naturally be very glad to avoid giving an extra day. If the right hon. Gentleman preferred, with the latitude which Mr. Speaker is prepared to allow, to have a general discussion on Votes 1 and A to-night, instead of the extra day, I will close with him at once.
Mr. BALFOURIt is perfectly true that a statement was made that a day-should be given outside the ordinary allotted days; but I was not aware that the idea of having a general discussion on the Army Votes was abandoned. I admit that I have not referred to the OFFICIAL REPORT; I am relying on my memory in the matter, which may be fallacious.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI cannot even trust my memory; I am obliged to refer to the Report. But I think we might come to an arrangement on this point. We must get the report of these Votes to-night; otherwise we cannot introduce the Consolidated Fund Bill, and we cannot have the Second Reading of that Bill to-morrow. I hope that that will not involve a late sitting of the House. If the right hon. Gentleman would rather have a general discussion on the Army Votes this evening on the understanding that we shall get both the Army and the Navy Votes, well and good. On the other hand, if the right hon. Gentleman prefers to take the other course which has been suggested and have an extra day for the Army, so that we might conclude the discussion on the Report stage of the Army Votes comparatively early, I am quite prepared to agree.
Mr. BALFOURMay I ask what are the views of the Prime Minister on the somewhat truncated and unsatisfactory discussions we have had on the Navy? How does he propose to deal with that?
§ The PRIME MINISTERWithout accepting the epithet "truncated" or even "unsatisfactory," I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that we have had a general discussion on Navy policy—an extra day was given for that, or at any rate for the joint discussion which was largely devoted to the Navy. We have had two nights on the Navy Votes. I have offered to put down the salary of the First Lord for discussion on 6th April, and I have also offered to advance the ordinary discussion of the Construction Vote, which does not generally take place until July, so that it may take place in May or early in June. I think, under these circumstances, there is nothing to complain of about the Navy Votes. I cannot feel that we have to stand in a white sheet as regards those.
§ Mr. JAMES HOPEWas it not part of the suggestion with regard to the extra day that it should be given before Easter? [HON. MEMBERS: "No."]
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINOn the Navy Estimates, immediately after the First Lord's statement, my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. A. Lee) put a series of questions. The reply of the Government that night was made about eleven o'clock, when the right hon. Gentleman begged to be excused from answering the questions then on the ground that there had been moved from his own side of the House an Amendment to which he must confine himself, and he promised that replies should be given to those questions later. I was specially interested in one of those questions, but no answer has yet been given.
§ The PRIME MINISTERThat can be done to-night.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINHow are we to discuss both the Army and the Navy Votes to-night? Such a thing has never been done in this House.
§ The PRIME MINISTERIf my suggestion were accepted and the general discussion on the Army Votes were taken on a subsequent day, I think we might come to an early conclusion on the Report of the Votes for the Army, and there would then be ample opportunity for a discussion on the Navy Votes.
Mr. BALFOUROnly if the same arrangement were made with regard to the Navy Estimates as was at one time proposed with regard to the Army Estimates. I understand it to be the view of the Prime Minister that the suggestion that the discussion on the Report stage of Army Votes A and I should be extended, is now abandoned, and that as a substitute for it a day outside the allotted days is given. Now, says the right hon. Gentleman, these general questions can be adequately dealt with on the Report of Votes 1 and A for the Navy. Evidently that cannot be done, unless with Mr. Speaker's permission the same latitude is given to the Navy Debate as was originally proposed to be given to the Army Debate.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI entirely as sent to that.
§ The PRIME MINISTERI have got into trouble already over a similar question; I will not repeat the mistake.
§ Colonel LOCKWOODIn view of the conversation which has taken place, and the arrangement which has been come to between the two Front Benches, shall I be out of order to-night in discussing the question of the wages of the men at the Ordnance factories?
§ Mr. SPEAKERI understand that the suggestion that a general discussion should take place on the Report of the Army Votes is now abandoned, and that an extra day has been substituted for it. That being so, the right hon. and gallant Member would not be in order in discussing the position of the men employed in the Ordnance factories.
§ Lord HUGH CECILIs it not a fact that many matters relating to the Army are strictly in order on the Report stage of these Votes without any extension of the discussion? Votes 1 and A under normal conditions would cover a large number of subjects.
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is so. The only point put to me by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman referred to the employés in certain Ordnance factories. "Those employés do not appear as part of the established Army, therefore their numbers are not included in Vote A nor their salaries in Vote 1.
§ Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINIs there any precedent in the whole of our recent procedure for attempting to take even the ordinary Report of Votes A and 1 of the Army without any extension of the discussion and Votes A and 1 of the Navy and some half-dozen other Votes on a single day?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI should be sorry to say without reference to the precedents how that matter stands. Each case must be judged by its own circumstances. It seems to me that it is a reasonable arrangement we have come to.
§ Colonel LOCKWOODMay I appeal to the Prime Minister to give me an opportunity of raising the question to which I have referred? It is of the greatest importance and affects the personal well-being and the lives of a great many men in the Army. The Ordnance Vote is a very difficult one to get hold of when it comes on, and I would appeal to the Prime Minister to give me early opportunity after Easter to raise the question.
§ Mr. KEIR HARDIEDoes the Prime Minister admit the assumption underlying the question put by the Opposition that time given to those who are called Navy economists is not time given to the discussion of the Navy?
§ The PRIME MINISTERI do not admit anything of the kind. With regard to what the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite said we will endeavour to give him the opportunity he wishes.
§ Colonel LOCKWOODAfter Easter?
§ The PRIME MINISTERYes.